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@Wargaming - Why am I punished for playing agressive as arty pounds me.


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scHnuuudle_bop #41 Posted Oct 10 2018 - 20:29

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View PostFractured_Raptor, on Oct 10 2018 - 17:58, said:

 

Your experience doesn't mean it isn't broken. Tell that to the people who get focused by two or three, people in lightly armored tanks who get three quarters of their health taken in one shot by something they can't shoot back at. People who lose crew members, modules, and get stunned on a miss. Hit applies also. It's a solid fact that the mechanic prevents active play. Put three on any halfway open map and everyone with half a brain humps cover. That isn't how the game was intended to be played. 

 

They should not get spotted. Imagine getting shot in a shooting game, oh the humanity.

 

If I see someone who is going to hurt my team, I want him to go back and "hump cover". Why is this a problem?

I do not want him running around up front. I want him to hide all game.

 

Not how it is supposed to be played, what, the other is just supposed to let you overrun them, because you are the aggressive one this game, next battle it is their turn or something.

What a ridiculous bunch of nonsense.

 

Just like the other 14 players on my team, I want all the red either cowering in the back or destroyed. You do understand this is a war game? My place is to shoot you and get you to run like a girl. This is such a simple concept. Artillery wants you to camp.


Edited by scHnuuudle_bop, Oct 10 2018 - 22:12.


the_Deadly_Bulb #42 Posted Oct 10 2018 - 20:46

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View PostBurning_Haggis, on Oct 10 2018 - 11:28, said:

 

Playing all that low tier stuff really doesn't expose you to the arty-hell that is tier 10 arty focusing on you.

 

I play in the upper tiers too.

If you have a point make it.

Your average tier is 1.2 above mine.


Edited by the_Deadly_Bulb, Oct 10 2018 - 20:47.


scHnuuudle_bop #43 Posted Oct 10 2018 - 21:01

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View PostStaz211, on Oct 10 2018 - 02:52, said:

Inb4 "pushing aggressively is camping."

 

As usual, a non-constructive comment.

He gets caught in the open and wants blame others for his mistakes.


Edited by scHnuuudle_bop, Oct 10 2018 - 22:02.


Trauglodyte #44 Posted Oct 10 2018 - 21:23

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View PostPerson012345, on Oct 10 2018 - 19:27, said:

 

The problem with your assertions is that literally anyone who plays the game knows how arty affects the game, how much more active and dynamic the tank battles are when there are no arty vs when there are 3 arty. You're simply assuming the OP has done something excessively stupid, been killed and blamed arty when that really isn't implied anywhere and it's not exactly a novel or particularly controversial concept among tank players that more arty = more stagnant gameplay. It plays out in game. Because yes, arty punishes you for doing anything but hiding behind an arty-safe rock. There are many opportunities ingame for flanking and attacking and doing all sorts of stuff but it's cut off by this nonsense attack that completely differs from the rest of gameplay. Now as I said previously, there are ways to work around it, mitigate your risk etc. but artillery will dampen your ability to conduct aggressive attacks. Just because it can be avoided doesn't really change this.

 

Where I think that your opinions and such are partially off is that you feel like you should be free to operate as you wish with impunity.  I said it before but it bears repeating.  This game isn't about you, the individual player.  This game is about 15 people working in concert to achieve the objective which is to win.  Win percentage, wn8, personal rating, marks of excellence, awards, badges, etc. are all meaningless, in the scope of the team based objective.  The offensive linemen doesn't care that <insert pro QB> throws for 400 yards or 200 yards.  As long as the QB does his job to manage the game and guide the team to a win, his starts are pointless.  I can, hypothetically, do 15 damage in a game and come out with 15 kills with any tank in the game.  15 damage would make my wn8 garbage but I'd get the rarest of all medals in the game.  Does that make me good or does that make me a crappy player?

 

What you, the OP, a lot of unicums, and general anti-artillery people want is a game in which you only have to play in 2D.  You don't want to have to worry about something looping over a hill.  You want to take a tank, max out its combat stats, and abuse a location on the map so that YOU have the greatest potential to deal damage, get kills, and, as a bi-product, secure the win.  That isn't what team play is about.  Artillery exists to impede and punish aggressive play in an area where normal tanks cannot.  It gains that capability with the sacrifice of direct combat capabilities, vision, armor, and health.  Artillery exists to help bolster weak friendly flanks and to suppress enemies so that friendly tanks can push and break areas for the win.

 

I don't think that artillery is where it needs to be and I definitely don't think that we need 2x artillery on most maps and DO NOT need 3x arty on any map, sans Grand Battles (and maybe not then).  Artillery has a place in this game and people would see that if they'd get out of the mind set of "me".  Does it suck getting focused?  Hell yes it does and I like artillery.  And I think changes still need to be made.  But, this continued notion of it being unnecessary is counter to what every PvP game has and that is big time AoE damage, extreme ranged damage, and/or a means to disincentivize people from entering an area crucial to the friendly team.

 

Signed:  An arty playing non-arty apologist


Edited by Trauglodyte, Oct 10 2018 - 21:23.


Hurk #45 Posted Oct 10 2018 - 21:59

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View PostPerson012345, on Oct 10 2018 - 11:27, said:

The problem with your assertions is that literally anyone who plays the game knows how arty affects the game, how much more active and dynamic the tank battles are when there are no arty vs when there are 3 arty. You're simply assuming the OP has done something excessively stupid, been killed and blamed arty when that really isn't implied anywhere and it's not exactly a novel or particularly controversial concept among tank players that more arty = more stagnant gameplay. It plays out in game. Because yes, arty punishes you for doing anything but hiding behind an arty-safe rock. There are many opportunities ingame for flanking and attacking and doing all sorts of stuff but it's cut off by this nonsense attack that completely differs from the rest of gameplay. Now as I said previously, there are ways to work around it, mitigate your risk etc. but artillery will dampen your ability to conduct aggressive attacks. Just because it can be avoided doesn't really change this.

 

i know exactly how arty affects the game. and i know you are telling half the truth. 

Matches without arty run two ways. 

1. people zerg rush recklessly and it goes fast.

2. people camp excessively since they dont want to be the first one shot.

 since there are more tanks on the line shooting, this is more common at higher tiers, where most "good" players are waiting for their bad players to rush forward and light stuff up for them to farm until the battle is about half over. 

 

i make the assumption, because you have to make assumptions. i play arty, i know what it can and cannot do with any regularity, the OPs argument is that its arty at fault when thats complete crap. arty is not regular at anything except dropping stuns, everything else is RNG lottery. except... and its a big one, bad players who play forward and in a way that they are easy targets. 

now, thats not to say that we all dont rarely run into a game, where enemy arty just seems to land every shot they take on you. yes, that does happen, but its not common by any stretch, because we all know better than to sit in the open as an unmoving arty target. because we are all good enough players to mitigate arty considerably. 

 

again, the proper answer to more arty is rush. this cannot be said enough. if you wait around hiding, you are just allowing arty to work as intended. you have been suppressed. 

 

my personal experience is that arty free matches are usually the most campy. everyone holding some place to snipe, because there is no asymmetric element to make it stop. worse, since there are more tanks on the line, its often full blown turtles. 



DomoSapien #46 Posted Oct 10 2018 - 22:10

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Speaking from personal experience as someone who has recently started playing SPG's:

If someone I'm aiming at is unspotted for about 10 seconds, I start worrying about my damage output and switch to a different target. Familiarize yourself with the reload time of SPG's you're running into at each tier, keep an eye on the battle timer and make sure you're not spotted by the time they're about to be loaded again. 

With the reduced single-target damage and increased splash radius, there is an incentive to prioritize grouped-up tanks. If no tanks are grouped-up, and you happen to be top tier + completely decimating one of my flanks, you can bet I'll do everything I can to stop you from single-handedly crushing that flank, because you're getting closer and closer to me which means I have to either go back to garage or stop shooting because I need to relocate.

Vipsanius #47 Posted Oct 10 2018 - 22:23

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A WG employee playing arty....

 

watch out popularity contests!!

 

 



ThePigSheFlies #48 Posted Oct 10 2018 - 22:31

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View PostHurk, on Oct 10 2018 - 15:59, said:

 

 

my personal experience is that arty free matches are usually the most campy. everyone holding some place to snipe, because there is no asymmetric element to make it stop. worse, since there are more tanks on the line, its often full blown turtles. 

 

funny, that's exactly the opposite experience I have - open map, 3 arty is the ingredient that most frequently turns a match into a draw with just arty left on each side... had that happen several times in the past 4 days, which as a percentage still is not a huge number, but it seems to happen more frequently with arty at least at the times and tiers when I play.

 

I will concede, that a combination of campy spots, TDs, and arty make the game way too stagnant but if it's a funnel map with lots of arty safe spots like abbey or mt pass then it gets even campier as the passive players cluster up in arty safe areas once the initial spotting runs are over, and the match then turns into a possible draw, or brawling points in those arty free zones until one side makes a cumulative set of bad trades and an over match happens.

 

oh, and I got triggered by having the abbey map 3 out of 5 matches last night, and to get the secondary for union-8 it meant playing stun.  I was triggered by the maps, and saw a mission that was going to be fairly easy to knock out quickly.  I played the 261 for the first time in pubs since the week that 9.18 dropped.  went 5 for 6, at 2240 dpg, including a 2600 dmg game on himmels.  got my 100s of stuns x5, with virtually no stun assist.  I can't help but wonder if more folks like me are intentionally waiting to shoot enemies after their stun is either healed or wears off...

 

edit:  fixed the triggering moment after re-reading pickpocket's quote.  


Edited by ThePigSheFlies, Oct 10 2018 - 22:51.


Staz211 #49 Posted Oct 10 2018 - 22:38

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View PostscHnuuudle_bop, on Oct 10 2018 - 15:01, said:

 

As usual, a non-constructive comment.

He gets caught in the open and wants blame others for his mistakes.

 

Thank you for giving me the exact response I was looking for from you. You're so predictable, and so easy to bait.

 

Schuuudle, you're a giant hypocrite. I just watched you repeatedly post direct and degrading insults in another thread. You insulted other player's IQ, state of mental health, ability to think, level of maturity, level of skill, etc, yet you can't even handle a light joke that pokes even the slightest bit of fun at your own position. To me that shows just how undeveloped and immature your position really is. If you can't take it, then don't dish it out. The internet goes both ways. 

 

Ive given you constructive honest post after constructive honest post in a sincere effort to engage in dialogue with you and other members of your camp. Ive put alot of honest effort into communicating with you, and spent more type typing out detailed forum posts than I have in a very long time. Yet if I or anyone else dares to behave like we are posting on an internet forum from time to time, you get on your holy high horse while continuing to engage in equal or worse behavior yourself. You are one of the most dismissive and condescending posters on this forum as of late. 

 

I've said it once Schuuuudle, and I should have listened to my gut. I was right the first time: you're nothing but a typical forum crap poster. You are incapable of logical debate, to the point that you must warp the very meaning of the English language to try and make your points work (remember when you said that "static" doesn't mean stationary or lack of movement?). You aren't interested in honest discussion or debate; you're only interested in putting others down while protecting your own frail ego. You're barely a step above WhineMaker and some of the other regular crap posters. In my 6+ years in this forum, your posting stands out as some of the most ridiculous. 

 

I was about to sit down and type up another lengthy response to your post in our other thread to continue to politely debate your points and (quite frankly shred) your post, but I'm not going to even bother at this point. You're not worth the time or effort. I have better things to do with my time that continue to go back and forth with someone like you. 



pickpocket293 #50 Posted Oct 10 2018 - 22:40

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View PostThePigSheFlies, on Oct 10 2018 - 13:31, said:

 

funny, that's exactly the opposite experience I have - open map, 3 arty is the ingredient that most frequently turns a match into a draw with just arty left on each side... had that happen several times in the past 4 days, which as a percentage still is not a huge number, but it seems to happen more frequently with arty at least at the times and tiers when I play.

 

I will concede, that a combination of campy spots, TDs, and arty make the game way too stagnant but if it's a funnel map with lots of arty safe spots like abbey or mt pass then it gets even campier as the passive players cluster up in arty safe areas once the initial spotting runs are over, and the match then turns into a possible draw, or brawling points in those arty free zones until one side makes a cumulative set of bad trades and an over match happens.

 

oh, and I got triggered by having arty 3 out of 5 matches last night, and to get the secondary for union-8 it meant playing stun.  I was triggered by the maps, and saw a mission that was going to be fairly easy to knock out quickly.  I played the 261 for the first time in pubs since the week that 9.18 dropped.  went 5 for 6, at 2240 dpg, including a 2600 dmg game on himmels.  got my 100s of stuns x5, with virtually no stun assist.  I can't help but wonder if more folks like me are intentionally waiting to shoot enemies after their stun is either healed or wears off...

 

 

You hit my STRV for 900 of that 2600. Feels bad man. Ironically, I was trying to be aggressive and play up when I got tagged.... At which point I had to fall back and camp more, because I was then on low HP. Arty creates camping.



pickpocket293 #51 Posted Oct 10 2018 - 22:42

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View PostStaz211, on Oct 10 2018 - 13:38, said:

 

Thank you for giving me the exact response I was looking for from you. You're so predictable, and so easy to bait.

 

Schuuudle, you're a giant hypocrite. I just watched you repeatedly post direct and degrading insults in another thread. You insulted other player's IQ, state of mental health, ability to think, level of maturity, level of skill, etc, yet you can't even handle a light joke that pokes even the slightest bit of fun at your own position. To me that shows just how undeveloped and immature your position really is. If you can't take it, then don't dish it out. The internet goes both ways. 

 

Ive given you constructive honest post after constructive honest post in a sincere effort to engage in dialogue with you and other members of your camp. Ive put alot of honest effort into communicating with you, and spent more type typing out detailed forum posts than I have in a very long time. Yet if I or anyone else dares to behave like we are posting on an internet forum from time to time, you get on your holy high horse while continuing to engage in equal or worse behavior yourself. You are one of the most dismissive and condescending posters on this forum as of late. 

 

I've said it once Schuuuudle, and I should have listened to my gut. I was right the first time: you're nothing but a typical forum crap poster. You are incapable of logical debate, to the point that you must warp the very meaning of the English language to try and make your points work (remember when you said that "static" doesn't mean stationary or lack of movement?). You aren't interested in honest discussion or debate; you're only interested in putting others down while protecting your own frail ego. You're barely a step above WhineMaker and some of the other regular crap posters. In my 6+ years in this forum, your posting stands out as some of the most ridiculous. 

 

I was about to sit down and type up another lengthy response to your post in our other thread to continue to politely debate your points and (quite frankly shred) your post, but I'm not going to even bother at this point. You're not worth the time or effort. I have better things to do with my time that continue to go back and forth with someone like you. 

 

Put them on your ignore list and this place gets a lot nicer.

ThePigSheFlies #52 Posted Oct 10 2018 - 22:49

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View Postpickpocket293, on Oct 10 2018 - 16:40, said:

 

 

You hit my STRV for 900 of that 2600. Feels bad man. Ironically, I was trying to be aggressive and play up when I got tagged.... At which point I had to fall back and camp more, because I was then on low HP. Arty creates camping.

 

as I mentioned in our garage chat, it wasn't enjoyable for me either.  but 6 battles, and that stun was done (would have been 5, but one of the wins was a rofflestomp and I couldn't get the stun in time)

 

the arty apologists like to remind you as well, that if it had been the old arty, it probably would have one-shot you :trollface:  



scHnuuudle_bop #53 Posted Oct 10 2018 - 23:18

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View PostStaz211, on Oct 10 2018 - 22:38, said:

 

Thank you for giving me the exact response I was looking for from you. You're so predictable, and so easy to bait.

 

Schuuudle, you're a giant hypocrite. I just watched you repeatedly post direct and degrading insults in another thread. You insulted other player's IQ, state of mental health, ability to think, level of maturity, level of skill, etc, yet you can't even handle a light joke that pokes even the slightest bit of fun at your own position. To me that shows just how undeveloped and immature your position really is. If you can't take it, then don't dish it out. The internet goes both ways. 

 

Ive given you constructive honest post after constructive honest post in a sincere effort to engage in dialogue with you and other members of your camp. Ive put alot of honest effort into communicating with you, and spent more type typing out detailed forum posts than I have in a very long time. Yet if I or anyone else dares to behave like we are posting on an internet forum from time to time, you get on your holy high horse while continuing to engage in equal or worse behavior yourself. You are one of the most dismissive and condescending posters on this forum as of late. 

 

I've said it once Schuuuudle, and I should have listened to my gut. I was right the first time: you're nothing but a typical forum crap poster. You are incapable of logical debate, to the point that you must warp the very meaning of the English language to try and make your points work (remember when you said that "static" doesn't mean stationary or lack of movement?). You aren't interested in honest discussion or debate; you're only interested in putting others down while protecting your own frail ego. You're barely a step above WhineMaker and some of the other regular crap posters. In my 6+ years in this forum, your posting stands out as some of the most ridiculous. 

 

I was about to sit down and type up another lengthy response to your post in our other thread to continue to politely debate your points and (quite frankly shred) your post, but I'm not going to even bother at this point. You're not worth the time or effort. I have better things to do with my time that continue to go back and forth with someone like you. 

 

Well, yet again, no response, just an unfounded complaint.

Why not be dismissive, when asked for something simple, like providing any alternate to a published definition to a controversial term, all that is received is something as inane as "just because."

You post these lengthy arguments, then do not bother to respond when challenged. Your only reply is things like I quoted above.

If you are going to reply then do so. I have provided you with nothing other than what you ask.

 

Shred away, for instance, "static", lacking in movement or action. I do not see your point in debating this anyway. 

A player stopping even for a short period is static. It may not be an extended period, but it is still static. You latch onto small specifics.

Back and forth, this is the problem , you make these grand statements, walls of text, get a reply, and instead of attempting a counter to it, the same thing happens, you complain about imaginary slights, and nothing else. Sigh.

 

Your length of time in game is as immaterial as your hair colour or your dog's name.

 


Edited by scHnuuudle_bop, Oct 10 2018 - 23:29.


atila_xD #54 Posted Oct 10 2018 - 23:24

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You played agressively at the wrong time, you were likely the only one up there, long story short its your fault kekers

ledhed14 #55 Posted Oct 10 2018 - 23:38

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OK I am a Gimp and am playing with some restraints , however despite this my brain seems to remember that if arty is focused on an area and you are in a BIG tank it is not the time to play agressive , it is the time to back off and let the other guys play agressive so YOU can watch them  get pounded by your arty. Just saying. . . the title seems to make you want say , " when crap in raining on your head it is time to do some something different and not yell at the crap .".


Edited by ledhed14, Oct 10 2018 - 23:39.


Soloviceus #56 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 00:11

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OP,

 

I looked over your stats and they are quite good!  I don't think the issue is the game mechanic as so many claim.  The problem is that you've played incredibly few matches in arty.  How are you expecting to have insight into what arty players are looking for when you've barely played that class?   

 

I know each and every single time that arty is about to hit me.  I'm able to predict this because I play arty about 20% of the time and I realize when I'm putting myself in danger of an arty hit.  

 

Obviously arty doesn't seem to be a class that you enjoy playing, still, returning to it might help improve your understanding of what arty players are looking for.  It genuinely works for me.



choSenfroZen_1 #57 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 00:24

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View Postpickpocket293, on Oct 10 2018 - 13:42, said:

 

Put them on your ignore list and this place gets a lot nicer.

 

The problem is these two have a weird dance.

 

Stazz starts in a anti thread, posts a lengthy reply that gets ignored or lost.

So he starts his own anti thread, with a long detailed argument 

http://forum.worldof...tion-in-detail/

 So this schuuudle posts a detailed response, and it either gets lost or ignored, so he starts his own.

http://forum.worldof...tion-in-detail/

It is hilarious because these walls of text are posted, and I am not sure now who has not answered who. But they never seem to end up debating. One says he will respond, but the dog eats his homework, and the other continues to post these lengthy debates. Then the other posts a reply, but not in the same thread. I can only assume, that then the other does not see that, and complains that there was no answer, and off we go. 

The only time they actually meet are these strange snotty posts. Both seem to have honest and mature replies, but they do not ever meet up to debate.

 

I cannot wait to see what happens next. I doubt they will ever actually respond to each others long arguments.

 


Edited by choSenfroZen_1, Oct 11 2018 - 00:25.


Trauglodyte #58 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 00:37

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View Postpickpocket293, on Oct 10 2018 - 22:42, said:

 

Put them on your ignore list and this place gets a lot nicer.

 

I put people on my ignore list and then, for whatever reason, took a few off.  I'm not regretting that mistake.  Sadly, a lot of the people that I have/had/want on my ignore list are the arty-apologists.  What does that say about me when I actually enjoy artillery?  I'm damned conflicted!

 

View PostThePigSheFlies, on Oct 10 2018 - 22:49, said:

 

as I mentioned in our garage chat, it wasn't enjoyable for me either.  but 6 battles, and that stun was done (would have been 5, but one of the wins was a rofflestomp and I couldn't get the stun in time)

 

the arty apologists like to remind you as well, that if it had been the old arty, it probably would have one-shot you :trollface:  

 

Yeah, he wouldn't have pulled back from that hit on the old arty.  Though, you'd have had about a 2/3rd less of a chance of actually hitting him directly.  So, there is that.  Sadly, as much as you WANT to enjoy those big hits, you realize that you just completely hosed someone's game.  I was on game on Steppes a week or so ago in my GW Panther - ugliest damned arty in the game, in my opinion.  Anyway, this Hellcat comes trudging down on the high side of the 7 line about where most Lights like to go.  I see him, cursor over him, check the mini-map, and then switch to battle assistant.  When I looked at the mini-map, I saw that all of his partners just got schwacked.  Because of that, I guessed that, if he had any sense, he'd realize what just happened and how bad of a spot he was in.  As such, he's turn around and haul his butt back to his strong side.  Because of that, I held my shot and waited for him to put everything together.  Sure enough, he sees the problem and turns.  I still held, because I didn't want to catch his side and have his tracks eat it.  Couple of seconds, he turns and makes a dash for it.  Right when he gets about 95% back around in the other direction, I squeeze the trigger, watch the round go right into his tailpipe, and up in flames he goes.  It was a nice moment, for about a second.  Admittedly, big hits are amazingly fun.  They're especially fun if you do everything right and get rewarded for it.  Then, you realize that the RNG helped in landing the shell, getting the full pen, and then rolling high (or whatever in this case - poor Hellcats and their lack of health).  But, immediately there after, you realize that guy got to enjoy the game for about 90 seconds, give or take.  He didn't necessary do anything to deserve that but his mistakes cost him.  Had I been in a KV-2, an O-I, an 100Y or a SU-152, the end result would have been the same.  I wasn't even "camping" in the back as I moved up to the mound right behind the TD nest on the ridge.  Poor guy just zigged when he should have zagged.  The enjoyment is fleeting and it should be - we all remember what it was like at lowbie tiers getting massacred by invisible tanks because we made mistakes.

 

Only baddies revel in such things.  The rest of us push on to win the game.



Staz211 #59 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 00:49

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View Postpickpocket293, on Oct 10 2018 - 16:42, said:

 

Put them on your ignore list and this place gets a lot nicer.

 

Ive thought about it, but sometimes it's just fun to watch them get shredded by other posters. That, and as a general rule of thumb I always want to be exposed to ideas and positions that I don't agree with. It's good practice, and helps me to critically examine my own positions. 

 

The only person I ever got extremely close to blacklisting was templars8.  That guys was on another level. 

 

 



Staz211 #60 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 00:53

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View PostscHnuuudle_bop, on Oct 10 2018 - 17:18, said:

 

Well, yet again, no response, just an unfounded complaint.

Why not be dismissive, when asked for something simple, like providing any alternate to a published definition to a controversial term, all that is received is something as inane as "just because."

You post these lengthy arguments, then do not bother to respond when challenged. Your only reply is things like I quoted above.

If you are going to reply then do so. I have provided you with nothing other than what you ask.

 

Shred away, for instance, "static", lacking in movement or action. I do not see your point in debating this anyway. 

A player stopping even for a short period is static. It may not be an extended period, but it is still static. You latch onto small specifics.

Back and forth, this is the problem , you make these grand statements, walls of text, get a reply, and instead of attempting a counter to it, the same thing happens, you complain about imaginary slights, and nothing else. Sigh.

 

Your length of time in game is as immaterial as your hair colour or your dog's name.

 

 

You either don't actually read what I and others post, are willfully ignorant of what other post, or are honestly incapable of critical thought. 

 

I tend to think that you intentionally mischaracterize, split hairs, and project. If not that, then the third option. 

 

 






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