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Helping Scouts Find Their Niche'


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Staz211 #1 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 10:24

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To be clear: Despite being 25,000+ games in I am admittedly fairly new to scouts, and I would't be surprised if these ideas have already been pitched. 

 

Light tanks never really caught my attention in WoT. On the rare occasion I did play light tanks I ran them as fragile mediums, not scouts. I found a nice comfort zone in the AMX 1390 back in the day, but again, I never truly ran it as a "scout." 

 

Very recently I've decided to get into playing light tanks as true scouts more and more. It's (for me) new, interesting, and fun. I've mostly been running around in the AMX 1357, T92, M41 Bulldog and now T49. I haven't really touched my T54 ltwt or 1390. I'm no where near as proficient with scouts as I am with other classes of vehicles, but hey, learning curve and all that. 

 

I don't believe I am too far out of line if I state that, generally speaking, there seems to be some kind of consensus that scouts have lost their roll in WoT. 9 times out of 10 an equal tier medium seems to be able to do the job just as well or better. Scouts do retain their camo on the move, which is nice, but there are two other attributes I believe scouts should have that would give them back their roll as the eyes of the team and reward true scout gameplay without breaking the game:

 

1) Spotting XP Modifier: I think it would make sense for scouts to NOT get the same 50% XP penalty for spotting damage that every other class of vehicle gets. In my mind, scouts should receive somewhere between 75-100% XP for spotting damage. This does not mean taking 75-100% of the XP away from the firing tank; it's just 75-100% of the total XP value of that damage is awarded to the scout. They're performing their primary role, so why not adequately reward it?

 

2) Maximum spotting range: I truly and honestly believe that scouts should have the maximum possible spotting range of any vehicle class. I don't just mean base view range values, I mean true, hard spotting range limits. For example, all tanks get a maximum spotting range of 445m, but scouts get a maximum spotting range of 500m. This would have to be balanced against WGs current map design and view range saturation....so the discussion would have to be between bumping scouts max spotting range to above 445m, or keeping scouts at 445m and reducing all other classes to a lower value.  

 

Again, regardless of how much experience I have in WoT I'm fairly new to the "scout" community. Discuss and tell me if these ideas make sense, or how I'm wrong. 



MiddleAgedNoob #2 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 12:26

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OP, I think you make some very good points, with which I mostly agree.  But improving the vision ability of lights is exactly contrary to the reasons WG gave in the Great Scout Nerf of 9.18.  They argued that vision for lights was too good, and so players were choosing to forgo vision improving equipment, choosing rather to try to equip them like fragile mediums, so WG nerfed the base VR of lights. 

 

I think this was a mistake and threw the balance too far in favour of mediums, especially at higher tiers.  The tanks you listed, with the exception of the 13 57, are tier 8 and above, which means that they will meet tanks with high base VR, with multi-skilled crews, on small maps that often have sight lines that are even further limited.  That makes scouting at those tiers much more challenging. 

 

I play scouts, but I find the sweet spot is games between tiers 5 and 8.  Obviously better players than me can make scouts work at higher tiers, but I think there is a qualitative increase in difficulty at those tiers.  Improving the experience for scouts seems to me to be more related to map design than to vehicle characteristics, although I agree that the vision nerf went too far.  I didn't play FL that much, but some have said that the giant FL map really made scouting more interesting again.  I'd like to see it come back, and play my lights on it more diligently.

 

Keep at it, I think lights are most interesting class to play.  Be prepared for the inevitable abuse from team mates when you don't do what they want you to do, but otherwise it is very rewarding.

 

GLHF

 



iAmEbola #3 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 12:31

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I run light tanks quite a bit.  Depending on the team composition and map, I'll alternate between Passive/Active/Fragile modes of play.  Ever since I got into LTs and began learning the role (before Tier IX & X LTs and the strict +2MM) I hated the idea that a Tier X MT could effectively render a Tier VIII LT useless.  I never understood how a tank class with a specific roll was getting crapped on like that.  IMO, no other tank class should be able to out-spot a LT.  Just shouldn't happen.

 

So your suggestions here, are spot on and I agree with them wholeheartedly.  If #2 can't be done proper, then I would alter the request to make all tanks get a MSR of 400 and ALL LTs get the 445.



MacDaddyMatty #4 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 12:52

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- Reduce all tanks VR by 15% (except for LTs).

- Increase XP for spotting damage.

- Increase the camo penalty when a LT fires its gun.

- reduce LT HPs by 10%.


 

This would dictate their role better.

As said, now they are mostly crappy MTs.



Mikosah #5 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 12:55

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When in doubt, they could always just buff light tank view ranges. But even combining that with the OP's suggestions, we still have a different problem to solve and that is that is small maps, urban terrain, and corridors. It doesn't matter how great a light tank may be as a scout, some maps just don't work for scouts. When those maps show up in the rotation, guess what, you're now a medium. Some light tanks handle that well enough, but most are terrible at it. The entire class was massively over-nerfed during the re-tiering.

 

So I'd say the scheme ought to be a general light tank view range buff and a DPM buff. The current list of premium light tanks ought to set the standard for what the rest should be capable of in their respective tiers.



Lesser_Spotted_Panzer #6 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 13:42

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I really feel they should have some immunity from arty hits when they are on the move. Lights are often the first ones to be lit when they are actively scouting the front lines. Arty always shoots the first thing that gets lit. Even when you are taking evasive maneuvers, it's amazing how often arty will hit you.

That1Villain #7 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 13:57

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Since 9.18 when t10 lights got introduced there has been no real reason to play light tanks since mediums are better in every way, bat chat is leagues better than the 13 90 or 13 105, T54 is infinitely better than the T54 lwt, german lights just kinda suck in general even compared to other light tanks, the 121 and even the 5A are a better option than the 132-1, only the T49 and Sheridan are unique enough to even play since they're a KV2 going at 70 kmh

brianc53 #8 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 14:00

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I like the OP and others’ suggestions. Lights should be the kings of recon.
While we are discussing this topic, we should also remember that a whole new vehicle type - wheeled vehicles - will be coming soon. I’m very concerned what this will do to traditional lights...
However the introduction of wheeled vehicles would also be a natural time to revisit this whole topic of view range etc and lights as a class in general.  

iAmEbola #9 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 14:17

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Very good point brianc53 regarding the upcoming wheeled vehicles next year.  That may change the whole LT dynamic all together.

ThePigSheFlies #10 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 14:29

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This is not the first time I've stated this.

 

If you want LTs to scout, then the risk vs reward ratio needed to remain where it was when tanks were down 3 tiers.  Their repairs were lower, and the xp differential for assist and damage upon tanks higher tiers was that payout that the thread author is referring to.  I legitimately preferred it when LTs ended at tier 8, and even prior to that when the "end game" tier 5 Scouts such as the Chaffe, ELC, and T-50-2 all saw tier 10s...  But, they didn't ask me, and things move on...

 

So, now, when LTs are suddenly top tier, and "balanced" for same then they must adopt a more combat oriented role if they want to get good xp, credits, and on top of that influence matches to wins more often than losses.  In light of that they are typically best played in role where they are used to counter-scout, dominate vision, put down range harassing shots, and getting that vision to set up their own shots.  This means that it's not always being on the front lines per se'.  I have often had really good success at being on ridges in the middle of a rolling/open map, lighting one side, dropping down behind a ridge, and then sniping at a different flank.

 

This is not an easy role to manage for a new player, a player that's new to a class, or with a fresh crew.  And further, it's honestly a role that is now easier if top tier in a 3/5/7 match than all tier 10s on tiny, funnel maps...  it is as many suggest, a "try hard medium" role.

 

It is for all of the above reasons that while I have both the 13 105, and the T100LT in my garage, fully camo'ed and kitted out ready for battle - that I have never put a crew in them (except on test).  my 5+ perk crews in the Tier 9s are quite comfortable in those tanks - and in the case of the Russian set, I don't have to worry about what to do with the extra highly trained lady crew member, and juggling crew skills amongst 3 crew if I were to promote them.



_Katyusha___ #11 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 15:19

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I have no problems with current state. Yesterday i got a MVP tier VI scout (amx 12t) tier VIII game, and most i did was spotting (also 1 heavy kill). It is not rare to scouts to carry the battle, spotting the enemy is crucial.

Edited by _Katyusha___, Oct 11 2018 - 15:22.


Flarvin #12 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 15:27

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View Post_Katyusha___, on Oct 11 2018 - 09:19, said:

I have no problems with current state. Yesterday i got a MVP tier VI scout (amx 12t) tier VIII game, and most i did was spotting (also 1 heavy kill). It is not rare to scouts to carry the battle, spotting the enemy is crucial.

 

I have to agree. Just last night, got both the scout and patrol duty medals in my ru 251 on serene coast. 



moon111 #13 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 15:50

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Any map that had a mess load of options has been removed.  Now it's down the left or right flank.  Center is usually a dead zone, although it can be either vacant completely it's so wide open, or a massive stalemate.  The ability to not just spot targets, but exploit the map due to sneaky play is gone.

Staz211 #14 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 00:47

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View PostThePigSheFlies, on Oct 11 2018 - 08:29, said:

This is not the first time I've stated this.

 

If you want LTs to scout, then the risk vs reward ratio needed to remain where it was when tanks were down 3 tiers.  Their repairs were lower, and the xp differential for assist and damage upon tanks higher tiers was that payout that the thread author is referring to.  I legitimately preferred it when LTs ended at tier 8, and even prior to that when the "end game" tier 5 Scouts such as the Chaffe, ELC, and T-50-2 all saw tier 10s...  But, they didn't ask me, and things move on...

 

So, now, when LTs are suddenly top tier, and "balanced" for same then they must adopt a more combat oriented role if they want to get good xp, credits, and on top of that influence matches to wins more often than losses.  In light of that they are typically best played in role where they are used to counter-scout, dominate vision, put down range harassing shots, and getting that vision to set up their own shots.  This means that it's not always being on the front lines per se'.  I have often had really good success at being on ridges in the middle of a rolling/open map, lighting one side, dropping down behind a ridge, and then sniping at a different flank.

 

This is not an easy role to manage for a new player, a player that's new to a class, or with a fresh crew.  And further, it's honestly a role that is now easier if top tier in a 3/5/7 match than all tier 10s on tiny, funnel maps...  it is as many suggest, a "try hard medium" role.

 

It is for all of the above reasons that while I have both the 13 105, and the T100LT in my garage, fully camo'ed and kitted out ready for battle - that I have never put a crew in them (except on test).  my 5+ perk crews in the Tier 9s are quite comfortable in those tanks - and in the case of the Russian set, I don't have to worry about what to do with the extra highly trained lady crew member, and juggling crew skills amongst 3 crew if I were to promote them.

 

I too prefered when lights stopped at Tier VIII, and arty for that matter (though I know we both aren't fans of arty....at all). 

 

I'm trying to learn how to best make lights work in the current meta. There sre just times when Im like "how in God's name did I just get out spotted???" 

 

Also, so the 13 105 and T100 aren't worth going for? I haven't been going for them, but the idea has been floating in the back of my mind. 

 

Thank you for the feedback! 



Staz211 #15 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 00:48

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View Post_Katyusha___, on Oct 11 2018 - 09:19, said:

I have no problems with current state. Yesterday i got a MVP tier VI scout (amx 12t) tier VIII game, and most i did was spotting (also 1 heavy kill). It is not rare to scouts to carry the battle, spotting the enemy is crucial.

 

Ive pulled 8k+ spotting games. I just feel some changes would really give LTs their role back. 

fodder49s #16 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 01:59

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I also agree that the vision saturation issue is a big problem. The light tank apocalypse was a classic example of design by committee, there were a lot of interesting ideas, but the sum total of these ideas was anything but coherent. 

 

Increasing LTs' view range makes a lot of sense and I support the notion. However, I think another way to approach the matter could be through camo buffs. Whether we like it or not, the WOT seems wedded to the small corridor map template. That being the case, buffed camo ratings for lights could serve to make currently unreachable spotting locations viable to higher tiered scouts. Speed buffs could also be helpful in this fashion.  



ThePigSheFlies #17 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 02:16

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View PostStaz211, on Oct 11 2018 - 18:47, said:

 

I too prefered when lights stopped at Tier VIII, and arty for that matter (though I know we both aren't fans of arty....at all). 

 

I'm trying to learn how to best make lights work in the current meta. There sre just times when Im like "how in God's name did I just get out spotted???" 

 

Also, so the 13 105 and T100 aren't worth going for? I haven't been going for them, but the idea has been floating in the back of my mind. 

 

Thank you for the feedback! 

 

I find both of them very fun, with a 7 perk crew, and bond equipment on common test.

 

I just find the tier 9s a lot MORE fun, and thus why I haven't promoted my crews.  Missions 2.0 promises more lady crew members, at which point I will probably finally start playing them on my live server account.



Staz211 #18 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 02:25

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View PostThePigSheFlies, on Oct 11 2018 - 20:16, said:

 

I find both of them very fun, with a 7 perk crew, and bond equipment on common test.

 

I just find the tier 9s a lot MORE fun, and thus why I haven't promoted my crews.  Missions 2.0 promises more lady crew members, at which point I will probably finally start playing them on my live server account.

 

Missions are what really got me into playing light tanks as scouts. I actually need to fucus on them. I want that 279(e), and I'm still dragging feet on the Excalibur missions. 

 

I actually still don't have the OBJ 260 either. I'm on LT-15 for it, but I actually went back to complete the LT-15 for the 55a with honors so that I can release a bunch of orders that I originally spent. 



ThePigSheFlies #19 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 02:32

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View PostStaz211, on Oct 11 2018 - 20:25, said:

 

Missions are what really got me into playing light tanks as scouts. I actually need to fucus on them. I want that 279(e), and I'm still dragging feet on the Excalibur missions. 

 

I actually still don't have the OBJ 260 either. I'm on LT-15 for it, but I actually went back to complete the LT-15 for the 55a with honors so that I can release a bunch of orders that I originally spent. 

 

the first campaign missions were based on single, "epic" games for the average player.  one could just as luckily get them done via camo net, + binocs and the lucky/right map + teams.  in order to do them more efficiently, yes knowing what one is doing, and having the right LTs can make things more efficient.

 

the second set of campaign missions are more cumulative, so, one can just keep plugging away at them and eventually one will have them.  I've played quite a bit this past week compared to the past 8 months, and am now sitting at:

Union:  13/15

Bloc:  2/15

Alliance:  5/15

Coalition:  3/5

 

The vast majority of the above missions had their assistance, or damage done via the tier 9 LTs, or in some cases a small number of games in tier 9 mediums.  I am not a fan of tier 10s in general at the moment in these tiny maps, and in fact am trying to figure out how I'm going to do the Union mission where I block 2x my hit points, 5 times.  I don't care for heavies much at all, and whereas I managed to block 3x my hps for that obj260 mission in the IS7, I do not want to turn these missions back into an OCD, completionist type of thing and start spamming games in heavies that I don't enjoy...  oh, and I don't have a 268v4 either, nor do I want one  :/



Staz211 #20 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 02:46

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View PostThePigSheFlies, on Oct 11 2018 - 20:32, said:

 

the first campaign missions were based on single, "epic" games for the average player.  one could just as luckily get them done via camo net, + binocs and the lucky/right map + teams.  in order to do them more efficiently, yes knowing what one is doing, and having the right LTs can make things more efficient.

 

the second set of campaign missions are more cumulative, so, one can just keep plugging away at them and eventually one will have them.  I've played quite a bit this past week compared to the past 8 months, and am now sitting at:

Union:  13/15

Bloc:  2/15

Alliance:  5/15

Coalition:  3/5

 

The vast majority of the above missions had their assistance, or damage done via the tier 9 LTs, or in some cases a small number of games in tier 9 mediums.  I am not a fan of tier 10s in general at the moment in these tiny maps, and in fact am trying to figure out how I'm going to do the Union mission where I block 2x my hit points, 5 times.  I don't care for heavies much at all, and whereas I managed to block 3x my hps for that obj260 mission in the IS7, I do not want to turn these missions back into an OCD, completionist type of thing and start spamming games in heavies that I don't enjoy...  oh, and I don't have a 268v4 either, nor do I want one  :/

 

Ive completed all Alliance and all but one Coalition mission. I've barely touched the other missions, though I do have a few done here and there. Less than 5 each, though. 

 

I hear ya on the mission spam. I really want these vehicles, and I have the skill to get them, but hyper focusing in missions can get so damn frustrating. I really do wish that you didn't have to have a mission actively selected to complete it. The amount of times I've completed some insane mission requirements, but had a different mission selected ...yea, frustrating.






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