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Rebalancing The German Tech Tree: A Few Ideas

Germany buffs nerfs rebalances Tiger II E 100 Grille 15 Leopard 1

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ThatTrafficCone #1 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 03:16

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With 1.2 now released, and with wheeled vehicles expected to come out around early 2019, that leaves just enough time for one more patch to be squeezed in around late December of this year. With Wargaming looking to rebalance all the higher tiers before they touch the mid-tiers, and with the German tech tree is really the only significant tech tree that's left, that leaves me to speculate that the next patch 1.3 will finally see Wargaming giving the Germans some love. I could be wrong, but regardless, Wargaming has shown a recent interest in retouching the German tech tree.

 

So, what might we expect? Time to speculate and offer some suggestions! I'll mostly be looking at Tiers VIII through X and just offering some thoughts on what Wargaming could (and I think should) end up doing. I won't be discussing potential branch additions (although there's a quite few of those too).

 


 

Grille 15

 

 

Tier X: Grille 15

 

For some reason Wargaming is okay with how this tank is. But it's understandably awkward for them to balance: It's a fast and accurate glass cannon. They can't simply buff its dispersion or else players will be doing more snap-shotting than sniping, which they would understandably like to avoid. I think it could easily get away with an aim time buff, so at least it would fit better into the shoot-and-scoot gameplay style the tank already demands for effective use. Improved terrain resistances might also be warranted. But there really isn't much needed to make this tank comfortable. Hopefully they change their minds and decide to buff this tank, even just a bit.

 

 

Tier IX: Grille 12

 

Here it's possible we might see some things moved around. This tank would effectively be the same as the WT auf Pz. IV we have now and carry the same guns, but with a straight buff to its speed and mobility. Its fully traverseable turret might end up limited like the Grille 15's to make the two more similar, but I don't think that's much of a loss overall. It would also easily keep the same gun options as before.

 

 

Tier VIII: WT auf Pz. IV

 

Here the previous Tier IX is just dropped a tier, with its top 12,8 and 15 cm options removed. Now it's basically a Rhm.-B. WT with a rear-mounted turret, but perhaps a little more mobile. Whatever happens to the Roomba is anyone's guess—it could just be an alternative option to the Tier IX, made into a premium, or more ideally become a part of a new branch of mid-turreted Waffenträgers.

 


 

Jg.Pz. E 100

 

 

Tier X: Jg.Pz. E 100

 

I don't think anything's going to happen here. The 17 cm death cannon is too famous now for the tank to be replaced with something more befitting the branch (namely the StuG/Pz.Jäg./Jg.Pz. Maus). It could see a speed buff to 40 km/h as the chassis and engine historically permitted it, but I don't think that's necessary. Another option would be to give the tank a more accurate name like "StuG E 100" but unless Wargaming decides to create two different Jagdpanzer and Sturmgeschütz branches of Tank Destroyers, I don't think that's needed either.

 

 

Tier IX: Jagdtiger Wiederbewaffnet, or perhaps "Jagdtiger WB" for short.

 

There were basically two versions of the Jagdtiger historically: the one we have modeled in game, and one with the firing compartment extended over the engine deck. The former is the one that saw action and is represented by the Jagdtiger with the stock gun. The second was a proposal by Krupp to rearm the Jagdtiger (Wiederbewaffnet means rearmed in this context) with the longer 12,8 cm L/66, which the Jagdtiger in-game has for the top gun. This idea would simply replace the model with this "rearmed" one. The name change is a way to reflect that. Why this change? Well...

 

 

Tier VIII: Jagdtiger

 

Drop the Jagdtiger to Tier VIII with the standard 12,8 L/55 as its top option, the 8,8 L/71 has the stock option, and the 10,5 L/68 from the Tiger II as a middle option.

 

Let's be honest. The premium Jg.Tig. 8,8 has long since passed its prime, and the recent buffs in 1.2 are just not enough to do it justice. Here the solution is simple: integrate the old premium tank into the tech tree as the stock option for a new Tier VIII Jagdtiger.

 

 

Tier VII: Ferdinand

 

As with a lot of tanks in this game, the Ferdinand is an overbuffed mess to fit a tier that no longer suits in. In 2013 it was fine, but five years on? The game has evolved and this tank is always discounted as the bad option when it comes to picking between it and JPanther II (which frankly itself should renamed to JPanther WB). Here, now Wargaming has the chance to do something about it.

 

Drop the tank to Tier VII and nerf its mobility to reflect its awfulness IRL. Then for guns, give it the short 8,8 L/56, the long 8,8 L/71, and maybe the absurd 8,8 L/100 or the more reasonable 10,5 L/68. Have the tank better reflect the armored, long-distance sniper it really is. Now the tank can be compared to the Jagdpanther, where the distinction between armor and mobility becomes much more apparent than what could be achieved at Tier VIII.

 


 

Maus

 

 

Tier X: Maus

 

The Maus is another tank that will probably go untouched. In my opinion it could see a small buff to its DPM, but otherwise the tank is fine as it is. Wargaming has balanced and rebalanced it enough times already, I don't think they really care to rebalance it yet again. The rest of the branch is doing similarly well.

 


 

E 100

 

 

Tier X: E 100 Project B, or "E 100 PB" for short.

 

When it came to designing the E 100, Krupp wanted to fit the tank with a 1200 horsepower Maybach engine (which is already in the game). However, to do so, would require swapping the fighting compartment and the engine compartment around, effectively mounting the turret in the rear. This would allow for the mounting of longer guns and was thought to improve the E 100's top speed to 40 km/h. This would be the ultimate evolution of the E 100, but it never even reached the drawing board to my knowledge as the E 100 in development had already had its design finalized.

 

Effectively, the E 100 as we have it would get the turret pushed back and see a speed buff. Maybe the gun would get replaced with the 15 cm L/52, which would see with it a small but much needed buff to its penetration. I think with these changes the E 100 PB could finally stand as a viable contemporary to the Maus as it long used to be, now having fallen to the wayside.

 

 

Tier IX: E 100

 

The aim of this down-tier is to give the Mäuschen a more direct contemporary than the E 75 or even the VK 45.02 B could. Whereas the Mäuschen is armored, slow, and is more about penetration and accuracy, the new E 100 would be a little bit squishier, faster, and while it would have a 12,8 option, giving it the 15 L/38 and an awful reload speed makes it all about those one-tap alpha strikes.

 

 

Tier VIII: E 75

 

Honestly, I think the Tiger II is beyond saving at Tier VIII, and this is the core reason for dropping the tanks in this branch a tier. The Tiger II is too famous historically to really be messed with, and it can't really be given the "Tiger I treatment" (see: an absurd slab of hitpoints) as that's not what it needs. As with the Ferdinand I mentioned previous, the Tiger II is simply past its prime. The best thing for Wargaming to do now would be to replace it, drop it a tier, and rebalance it accordingly.

 

The E 75 now would perhaps see a mobility nerf and the loss of its top 12,8 L/55, and probably some other adjustments to its soft stats as well (and maybe the rear/side armor and LFP honestly). But it retains the one thing it this tier so desperately needs: that upper front plate.

 

 

Tier VII: Tiger II

 

I don't think there's really many changes needed to Tiger II at Tier VII, if any at all. Probably nerfs to its DPM. Maybe some mobility nerfs? Regardless the aim is to drop the tank to Tier VII where it will be much happier. Think of it now as a T29 analogue with worse turret armor but with much better hull armor.

 

 

Tier VI: Tiger I

 

A byproduct of making the Tiger II happy means we have to drop the Tiger I a tier as well. But given the performance of tanks like Tiger 131 and Heavy Tank No. 6, I don't think this will be an issue. There might be a problem with shuffling the branches around to lead into the Tiger I at Tier VI, but it's definitely possible.

 


 

Pz.Kpfw. VII

 

 

Tier X: Pz.Kpfw. VII

 

Eh, it's fine. I guess.

 

 

Tier IX: Leichter Löwe

 

A straight replacement for the VK 45.02 B. Same guns, same mobility, same everything pretty much. This is the rear-turreted version of the Löwe, but not to quite the fictionalized extent of the Pz.Kpfw. VII.

 

 

Tier VIII: VK 45.02 B

 

Literally just the VK 45.02 A but with the turret pushed to the rear.

 

 

Tier VII: VK 45.02 A

 

Essentially a more historical and direct analogue to the new Tiger II. Maybe it'll see the 10,5 gun removed if Wargaming wants to give this thing the edge in mobility.

 

 

Tier VI: Tiger (P)

 

As we dropped the Tiger I to Tier VI, I think it's only fair to the same to its contemporary. This tank would see the removal of the long 8,8 L/71 to fit the tier better, but it becomes the more armored alternative. Hopefully here, and with some appropriate rebalancing, the Tiger (P) grind stops becoming so awful. Also, can we rename the tank to like "VK 45.01 P" or something? The "(P)" can give the wrong impression of this tank being a

premium, which it clearly is not.

 


 

G.W. E 100

 

Honestly, I don't think anyone cares.

 


 

Leopard 1

 

Tier X: Leopard 1A1

 

Give the Leopard 1 the Super Conqueror treatment and replace it with the Leopard 1A1 standard. Very much the same tank, but with buffed accuracy and dispersion, and maybe a little bigger of a gun mantlet. The rest of the branch is fine in my opinion.

 


 

E 50 M

 

Tier X: Weserhütte Tiger

 

While I don't think Wargaming will even glance at this branch of tanks, it's still worth looking at what can be done with it. There is plenty wrong with this branch historically, and this would at least be a prime chance to do anything about it if Wargamnig so chooses.

 

To begin with, the E 50 M is a well known fake tank, but it's only half-fake. The tank we have in-game uses the Weserhütte Tiger hull, so a simple name change would be enough to make the tank more historical. But we can go deeper and turn it into a Heavy Tank to reflect that, slap it with the old E 75 turret and 12,8 L/55, and transform the tank into a German "Heavium" in the style of the Obj. 277 and Obj. 430U. While it would probably be a bit less mobile than these contemporaries, a Weserhütte Tiger would have better armor and a slightly more damaging gun. It would also see a hefty weight increase to around 90 tons, making it even better at ramming things.

 

 

Tier IX: Weserhütte Panther

 

This would be the more familiar E 50 M we already have, based on the E 50 chassis. While there was never a E 50 chassis intended to recieve the same treatment as the Weserhütte Tiger, given the efforts to standardize the E 50 and E 75, it's not beyond the realm of possibility for such a design to exist.

 

Now the E 50 is one of the strongest Tier IX mediums in the game. Its ability to ram is legendary. I don't really see any changes being made here other than the turret being pushed forward a tad. I'd like to see the front plate lessened to 100 mm as was historical, with perhaps a 150 mm strip along the front so it can continue being a ramming god. But otherwise there really isn't a need to do anything here.

 

 

Tier VIII: E 50

 

As was done with the E 75 and the Tiger II, so do I propose here with the E 50 and the Panther II. There would be a straight buff to the Tier VIII's frontal armor and really nothing else. In return, just remove the Panther II from the game. Maybe reintroduce it as a Tier VII premium with the 7,5 L/70? Or replace the Panther 8,8 at Tier VIII?

 


 

Rhm. PzW.

 

Tier X: Rhm. PzW.

 

Eh, it's okay. All the Tier X Light Tanks are kinda gimped anyways. Maybe it could see a speed buff so it becomes the "fast one" out of the bunch? But otherwise I don't really have anything to say about it.

 


 

Anyways, those are my thoughts! Remember this is just speculation on the German buffs we might see (or rather my own kind of wish list), based on my own understanding of the technology and tanks available relevant to what we have in the tech tree. What are your thoughts? What kind of changes would you like to see to the high tier German vehicles?


Edited by ThatTrafficCone, Oct 12 2018 - 11:01.


BabA_YA6A #2 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 03:28

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Grille 15

 

 

Tier X: Grille 15

 

For some reason Wargaming is okay with how this tank is. But it's understandably awkward for them to balance: It's a fast and accurate glass cannon. They can't simply buff its dispersion or else players will be doing more snap-shooting than sniping, which they would understandably like to avoid. I think it could easily get away with an aim time buff, so at least it would fit better into the shoot-and-scoot gameplay style the tank already demands for effective use. Improved terrain resistances might also be warranted. But there really isn't much needed to make this tank comfortable. Hopefully they change their minds and decide to buff this tank, even just a bit......

The Grille 15 has globally a 47% WR!!!

Some people at wargaming need to stop drinking that cheap Vodka and get their head out of there proverbial orifice and actually look around and do their job keeping this game from totally hitting the gutter.



heavymetal1967 #3 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 03:32

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View PostThatTrafficCone, on Oct 11 2018 - 21:16, said:

 

G.W. E 100

 

Honestly, I don't think anyone cares.

 

 

 



ThatTrafficCone #4 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 03:41

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View Postheavymetal1967, on Oct 11 2018 - 19:32, said:

 

 

 

I mean, there is an option of replacing the G.W. E 100 with a 24 cm naval gun placed on the Karl-Gerat chassis. However, with the gun overhang included (in the bottom picture), the tank would be more than twice the length of the Maus. I don't think it would be possible to implement it on that basis alone. Other options that I'm aware of suffer from that same issue. Not that it's impossible, but I certainly wouldn't expect it.

 

Edit: Another option is this thing with a 28 cm naval gun. But the gun itself is more than 50 ft long (assuming it's the L/55 not the L/52), and the Maus is 33 ft long.


Edited by ThatTrafficCone, Oct 12 2018 - 03:57.


tod914 #5 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 04:04

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After three attempts OP, they'll never get it Reich.

YANKEE137 #6 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 04:04

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Too many high tiers are just variations on the Maus: big steel blocks.  They could instead try a few variations of the Leopard 1 (cast and welded turrets), bring in the MBT70 as Blitz did. German versions of the M47 and M48. An (East) German T-54.   Some variety.

YANKEE137 #7 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 04:05

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View Posttod914, on Oct 12 2018 - 04:04, said:

After three attempts OP, they'll never get it Reich.

 

I did notsee that one coming.

docroberts #8 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 04:10

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View PostBabA_YA6A, on Oct 11 2018 - 20:28, said:

Grille 15

 

 

Tier X: Grille 15

 

For some reason Wargaming is okay with how this tank is. But it's understandably awkward for them to balance: It's a fast and accurate glass cannon. They can't simply buff its dispersion or else players will be doing more snap-shooting than sniping, which they would understandably like to avoid. I think it could easily get away with an aim time buff, so at least it would fit better into the shoot-and-scoot gameplay style the tank already demands for effective use. Improved terrain resistances might also be warranted. But there really isn't much needed to make this tank comfortable. Hopefully they change their minds and decide to buff this tank, even just a bit......

The Grille 15 has globally a 47% WR!!!

Some people at wargaming need to stop drinking that cheap Vodka and get their head out of there proverbial orifice and actually look around and do their job keeping this game from totally hitting the gutter.

 

Game has already hit the gutter though . It just forgot to lay down . And even if WGing stopped drinking in there broom closet -- Office . There brain is so pickled they wont listen to reason about anything anyways . 

Sam_Sanister #9 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 05:38

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Here's some more realistic buffs:
Leopard 1: Slightly buff dispersion while moving (from .17 to .15)
E 50 M: Buff frontal turret armor by 15 mm, and turret sides by 10 mm
E 100: Buff turret side armor by 10-15 mm
Maus: Is probably fine, no rebalancing needed (yet)
Panzer VII: Shave a half or full second off its reload
Panzerwagen: Either buff its penetration (on both rounds) by 15-20 mm, or give it 390 alpha
GW E 100: Shave half a second off its reload (optional), buff hull traverse by 2 degrees per second
Jagdpanzer E 100: Buff hull traverse by 2 degrees per second
Grille 15: Shave a quarter of a second off its reload, buff hull traverse by 2 degrees per second

Legiondude #10 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 06:45

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View PostThatTrafficCone, on Oct 11 2018 - 21:16, said:

 

Tier IX: Jagdtiger Wiederbewaffnet, or perhaps "Jagdtiger WB" for short.

FTR blocks hyperlinking images



StuG_Life_Ausf_G #11 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 10:05

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View PostLegiondude, on Oct 12 2018 - 06:45, said:

FTR blocks hyperlinking images

 

Was about to say that myself, and Google doesn't give anything either.

ThatTrafficCone #12 Posted Oct 12 2018 - 11:01

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View PostLegiondude, on Oct 11 2018 - 22:45, said:

FTR blocks hyperlinking images

 

Huh, didn't know that. Fixed it.

pepe_trueno #13 Posted Oct 13 2018 - 02:52

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View PostThatTrafficCone, on Oct 12 2018 - 03:16, said:

 

 


 

Pz.Kpfw. VII

 

 

Tier X: Pz.Kpfw. VII

 

Eh, it's fine. I guess.

 

 

cant say i am an expert by any mean but after a few battles in that thing i whent back to the t9 vk, the side armor below the turret  needs a boost, due to its shape if one trys to sidescrape that area becomes a blatant weakspot. 



CardboardJedi #14 Posted Oct 13 2018 - 18:25

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You know there's gotta be one of us here:

 

I'm still campaigning for a rebalanced return of our WTE 100's






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