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How Marks of Excellence Work ⭐⭐⭐(Now with Visual Aids!)

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Zuikakoo #21 Posted Oct 18 2018 - 06:31

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View Postoddbal1, on Oct 18 2018 - 06:12, said:

 

It changes daily, when the server reboots

 

 

So in short we were given a wonderful ten page article with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back that changes absolutely nothing.   MOE are these random things you bumble into out of noplace based upon crap other people are doing with it, and that's why chasing after them is not much fun and takes forever because not only are you chasing a moving target, you're chasing a Secret Moving target, AND, your own efforts to chase after it actually in their own slight (or not so slight depending on the rarity of the tank) force that secret number to increase!

Avalon304 #22 Posted Oct 18 2018 - 08:09

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View Postoddbal1, on Oct 17 2018 - 21:48, said:

 

I get that, Friend, but you obviously know that things like damage, kills, spots, and spotting damage increase the experience, especially in the win that  I carried them too.  no?

 

And you completely missed the point of that post.  I said that "funny that a game with 1,158 combined damage and a 4,546 wn8 was only worthy of a II class mastery badge (better than only 80% in last seven days)."  aka a unicum result only resulted in a base exp that was only worthy of  a II class mastery badge.

 

Or is reading comprehension one of your issues also?

 

 

 

 

No Im pointing out that damage doesnt have a sole effect on Mastery Badges. And WN8 (that "unicum result") has ZERO effect on them. (Light tanks expected values are usually lower than other tanks, which is what makes them good for padding WN8, especially at lower tiers). So youre posting nothing relevant to your original question (about why your combined damage total for the ELC as shown by MOE extended, is above the required amount for a 3rd mark, but you dont have it yet. Which BTW the asnwer is that mod is only really accurate when youve played a bunch of games recently. The requirements will change and get more accurate the more games you play in short period, as the mod only updates when you play a game, it isnt live).

 

More importantly it still has NOTHING to do with the topic of this thread, so why even post it? Its completely irrelevant to this thread.

 

View Postoddbal1, on Oct 17 2018 - 22:19, said:

 

wrong, the MOE formula uses the highest damage of EITHER tracking or spotting.  It has been a point of confusion, but they only take the greatest damage from spotting or tracking.  They do not combine the two.  But if you spot more than you track they use the spotting numbers.  If however, you track and others damage the tank you tracked, and that damage is greater than your spotting damage, they use that number.

 

Yes I know how the formula works. Go back and read the question Gravtech was asking again. He asked if he should focus on either tracking or spotting when trying to mark a tank. In a situation where you are purposefully trying to mark a tank, yes, you should concentrate on one of the two and stack that value as high as possible, because only the highest will count. So either track targets or spot targets when purposefully trying to mark a tank, dont do both.

 

He then asked a separate question, which was 'if Im spotting a tank and Im also track it do I get spotting assist, tracking assist or both?' and in that situation if youre spotting a tank and then track him, any further assist after the track counts as tracking damage, even if youre the only one spotting him.

 

For a person who went for the "is reading comprehension one of your issues" angles you seem to be the one with the problem.



JEDI_RespectingWhamen #23 Posted Oct 18 2018 - 08:15

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For those of you who said TL DR;

This is effectively what I got from the article. In order to raise your MOE, you need to be consistent. Bad games are terrible for your MOE and should be avoided at all costs. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


Edited by JEDIDIEUGH, Oct 18 2018 - 11:23.


Avalon304 #24 Posted Oct 18 2018 - 08:45

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View PostJEDIDIEUGH, on Oct 18 2018 - 00:15, said:

For those of you who said TL:DR;

This is effectively what I got from the article. In order to raise your MOE, you need to be consistent. Bad games are terrible for your MOE and should be avoided at all costs. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Yep thats pretty much the key. Be able to consistnetly surpass the required combined damage value and get marks.

Staz211 #25 Posted Oct 18 2018 - 09:08

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As someone who enjoys marking tanks I really enjoyed this write-up. I normally pull 2 MOE on a tank through normal grinding, but that 3rd MOE always proves to be the real challenge. Thank you, and +1. 

 

One observation/question/idea. I'm curious just how much your own matches play into the MOE server average, particularly if the tank is possibly not particularly popular. 

 

I've had it happen several times, most recently when grinding through the M41, where the expected MOE values when I start the grind are significantly lower than what they end up being at the end of the grind. When I started the M41, the 100% MOE value was something pathetic like 980 combined. However, I finished the grind with 2 MOE, and the 100% MOE value sitting around 1700-1800. I watched it climb daily, sometimes every few matches, as I grinded my way through the tank. 

 

I've also had instances where, at 100 battles, my combined is higher than the 95% or 100% MOE expected value, but I still only have two marks. This is without some long bad streak right at the end that would be weighed more. 



Trauglodyte #26 Posted Oct 18 2018 - 14:58

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View PostAvalon304, on Oct 18 2018 - 08:45, said:

 

Yep thats pretty much the key. Be able to consistnetly surpass the required combined damage value and get marks.

 

The suck part is when you have a game like I had last night.  I'm in my TD and I'm pushing with my team only the enemy team keeps going in the opposite direction on Sand River from me.  The game ends, I end up with like sub-300 damage, which makes my Doom Toaster very sad, and my MOE % for the 3rd mark goes into the crapper.  Or, worse, you have a team that uber melts within 3 minutes and there just isn't enough health and time to actually get anything done.  3rd mark % goes into the crapper.

 

View Post13Disciple, on Oct 12 2018 - 14:08, said:

Hello All!

My next article on How Marks of Excellence Work is live on my website.

I scoured many sources and spoke to many people to gather together all of this information into a single location. My goal was to make a page that becomes the new single reference point on how marks of excellence work. Granted there are still some holes, but there is far more information in this article than there is on the WoT wiki, or any individual forum post.

 

I've also provided a bunch of graphs to help players visualize what this math looks like. I think they tell the real story of this article. If you see errors or have questions or comments let me know here and I'll try to make updates to the article as they come in.

 

This is still missing the math on how the server calculates it's Expected EMA's - if anybody from WGNA can chime in and provide some of that information I'd be very grateful. 

 

As always if you want to support this and my future content, find me on Twitch.#shamelessplug

 

I tried reading this over the weekend and, due to pounding through a bunch of labs for my master's program, I got a bit cross-eyed and couldn't even spell my name.  So, now that I got to read it with a fresh-ish brain, this is a really cool write-up and I appreciate it.

 

I do have a couple of questions that come from this:
 

- given that MOEs are based on a moving 100 game average and that the overall MOE mark points are based on a server wide average, is it wrong to think that doing well on marks actually works against you since your progress actually, even in a small part, moves the 65/85/95% marks higher?

 

- is there a site that provides estimated total damage marks per tank?  I know that there is a mod but I hate using mods.  I just want to calculate what I need or see it for myself.  I use the www.targetdamage.com site as a barometer but that doesn't necessarily tell me what my average needs to be.

 

Thank you for the documentation.  Very well done.  Also, it is good to see -G- still alive!


Edited by Trauglodyte, Oct 18 2018 - 20:05.


Trauglodyte #27 Posted Oct 18 2018 - 20:04

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<ignore>

Edited by Trauglodyte, Oct 18 2018 - 20:05.


oddbal1 #28 Posted Oct 19 2018 - 03:36

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View PostAvalon304, on Oct 18 2018 - 01:09, said:

 

No Im pointing out that damage doesnt have a sole effect on Mastery Badges. And WN8 (that "unicum result&quot;) has ZERO effect on them. (Light tanks expected values are usually lower than other tanks, which is what makes them good for padding WN8, especially at lower tiers). So youre posting nothing relevant to your original question (about why your combined damage total for the ELC as shown by MOE extended, is above the required amount for a 3rd mark, but you dont have it yet. Which BTW the asnwer is that mod is only really accurate when youve played a bunch of games recently. The requirements will change and get more accurate the more games you play in short period, as the mod only updates when you play a game, it isnt live).

 

More importantly it still has NOTHING to do with the topic of this thread, so why even post it? Its completely irrelevant to this thread.

 

 

Yes I know how the formula works. Go back and read the question Gravtech was asking again. He asked if he should focus on either tracking or spotting when trying to mark a tank. In a situation where you are purposefully trying to mark a tank, yes, you should concentrate on one of the two and stack that value as high as possible, because only the highest will count. So either track targets or spot targets when purposefully trying to mark a tank, dont do both.

 

He then asked a separate question, which was 'if Im spotting a tank and Im also track it do I get spotting assist, tracking assist or both?' and in that situation if youre spotting a tank and then track him, any further assist after the track counts as tracking damage, even if youre the only one spotting him.

 

For a person who went for the "is reading comprehension one of your issues" angles you seem to be the one with the problem.

 

oh my word, there is so much misunderstanding in this post it defies imagination.  gl, hf. 

 

(oh and please play the ELC some more.)

 

 

 

 



leeuniverse #29 Posted Oct 20 2018 - 07:36

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Be a Unicorn....

 

That's how you 3 Mark a high tier tank (unless you get super lucky and the universe aligns, which I've seen once, seeing a T49 3 Marked with a worse player than me, ugh given how many games I have in that tank.)



13Disciple #30 Posted Oct 31 2018 - 14:46

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View Postoddbal1, on Oct 17 2018 - 14:30, said:

 

I'm beginning to suspect that my reading comprehension is not what it once was.

 

Can someone help me understand this:

 

https://imgur.com/a/a2DV1wy

 

additional info:

https://imgur.com/a/4RgNg6i

 

Although my total average combined damage is 915 which is greater than the current 95% 3rd mark threshold of 890, I only have two marks and I'm at 83.5%.  I have not played the ELC much in the past few months.  Is it that my average of 915 is likely based on games from long ago and they are exponentially minimized?

 

One thing that I struggle with is that my average, over what 5k battles and like 6 or 7 years is clearly over the 3rd mark line, and yet, none of that matters.  I mean people talk about consistency - ok I obviously have done that in the ELC, no?  I guess it is just "what have you done for me lately" in the last two weeks, no?

 

Grandpa Oddbal!

 

 

Yes, the Marks of Excellence extended mod is excellent for generating the server side data for you. The in game overlay is generally extremely accurate at predicting your MoE progress during the match. That's because it uses my math from the article. When you play more than 1 consecutive match in the day you can actually calculate the server values for yourself based on the change in % achieved and the combined average damage you did. 

 

That said the in garage numbers I'm not so sure those are based on that math. It might be generalized and possibly from the Russian or EU server. I've actually experienced the opposite of your issue - achieving a 3 MoE when my average value was lower than what was posted as the required amount from that mod.

 

I suggest you update the mod (if possible) and generally use the in game % progress as your goal for improving your MoE.



13Disciple #31 Posted Oct 31 2018 - 14:48

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View Postoddbal1, on Oct 17 2018 - 15:16, said:

Also, I couldn't remember if you mentioned it in your guide, but... 

 

I just had a reminder that if you TK/damage a friendly, that damage is subtracted from your combined damage/spotting total and negatively impacts your MOE for the match.  (screenshots available if needed)

 

doh!

 

p.s.

He pushed me out of cover because I wasn't "scouting" like a yolo suiscout.  I ended his negative impact on the match...

 

 

yes this is mentioned in the article:

 

Block Quote

 CD = (Combined Damage) which is calculated by
(Damage Dealt in Match) + (Maximum Damage by spotting or tracking*) - (damage to allies)

 

 



13Disciple #32 Posted Oct 31 2018 - 14:59

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View PostGravtech, on Oct 17 2018 - 22:47, said:

I didn't know that assistance was either tracking or spotting, not both. Learning something now every day. 

 

Does that mean I should be focusing on only one or the either per game when I'm trying to mark a tank?

 

Another question: say I'm a light tank and I'm spotting an enemy, if I track them, does my assistance stay in spotting, or am I now getting both spotting and track, or just tracking?

 

I believe in that instance it would change to tracking assist, but I'm honestly unsure with out dropping into a training room and experimenting with it.

13Disciple #33 Posted Oct 31 2018 - 15:04

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View PostZuikakoo, on Oct 17 2018 - 22:52, said:

the problem is, the most important thing, and you didn't tell us, what is the "Server Average" for any given tank, the rest of that article is useless.

 

Thanks for informing me that my article is useless. Wargaming does not provide the server data directly to us as players - nor how the server is calculated.

 

The fact that this data is updated at server reset also means I can't just put down values that constantly change.

 

However you can use the math in this article to determine the server value yourself by using the % change after 2 matches. Given that you know both the combined damage for both matches, you can see what your % change is in MoE, and then you can calculate the 65% / 85% / 95% MoE expected values from that.

 

I suppose I could put an article together that explains how to do this math, but it's pretty simple to figure out with basic understanding of algebra.

 



13Disciple #34 Posted Oct 31 2018 - 15:07

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View PostZuikakoo, on Oct 18 2018 - 00:31, said:

 

So in short we were given a wonderful ten page article with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back that changes absolutely nothing.   MOE are these random things you bumble into out of noplace based upon crap other people are doing with it, and that's why chasing after them is not much fun and takes forever because not only are you chasing a moving target, you're chasing a Secret Moving target, AND, your own efforts to chase after it actually in their own slight (or not so slight depending on the rarity of the tank) force that secret number to increase!

 

Correct - except for the secret number. You can mathematically determine the expected values you are required to meet by using the math presented in the article. I find chasing MoE to be a fun end game activity that is extremely challenging, and equally rewarding.

13Disciple #35 Posted Oct 31 2018 - 15:08

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View PostJEDI_RespectingWhamen, on Oct 18 2018 - 02:15, said:

For those of you who said TL DR;

This is effectively what I got from the article. In order to raise your MOE, you need to be consistent. Bad games are terrible for your MOE and should be avoided at all costs. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Correct.



13Disciple #36 Posted Oct 31 2018 - 15:13

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View PostStaz211, on Oct 18 2018 - 03:08, said:

As someone who enjoys marking tanks I really enjoyed this write-up. I normally pull 2 MOE on a tank through normal grinding, but that 3rd MOE always proves to be the real challenge. Thank you, and +1. 

 

One observation/question/idea. I'm curious just how much your own matches play into the MOE server average, particularly if the tank is possibly not particularly popular. 

 

I've had it happen several times, most recently when grinding through the M41, where the expected MOE values when I start the grind are significantly lower than what they end up being at the end of the grind. When I started the M41, the 100% MOE value was something pathetic like 980 combined. However, I finished the grind with 2 MOE, and the 100% MOE value sitting around 1700-1800. I watched it climb daily, sometimes every few matches, as I grinded my way through the tank. 

 

I've also had instances where, at 100 battles, my combined is higher than the 95% or 100% MOE expected value, but I still only have two marks. This is without some long bad streak right at the end that would be weighed more. 

 

Yes, I've observed this same phenomena. I don't believe the Mod that shows the expected values in the garage is accurate. I don't believe it updates as often as your MoE does. The closer you do get to 95%, the more difficult it becomes to push it higher ;)

 

a low or 0 damage match can harm your marks by a large amount. Always push to do everything you can on a match that isn't shaping up in your favor. sure a 2k damage match for a tier 10 sucks for 3 marking, but it's substantially better than 1k or 0 damage.



13Disciple #37 Posted Oct 31 2018 - 15:23

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View PostTrauglodyte, on Oct 18 2018 - 08:58, said:

- given that MOEs are based on a moving 100 game average and that the overall MOE mark points are based on a server wide average, is it wrong to think that doing well on marks actually works against you since your progress actually, even in a small part, moves the 65/85/95% marks higher?

 

- is there a site that provides estimated total damage marks per tank?  I know that there is a mod but I hate using mods.  I just want to calculate what I need or see it for myself.  I use the www.targetdamage.com site as a barometer but that doesn't necessarily tell me what my average needs to be.

 

Thank you for the documentation.  Very well done.  Also, it is good to see -G- still alive!

 

- To some extent pushing your MoE higher does work against you. But it only works against you on the next day. Your data for pushing the average higher only begins to work against you after the server recalculates the server average at reset. The best thing you can do in this sort of instance (for something like the ISU-130) is to achieve the 3 MoE in a single day. That's extremely difficult, but it allows you to get your marks before the server resets - which then pulls in your data to recalculate what is required.

 

- I could potentially put together a little HTML form where you play a match, enter in your combined damage and your percent, and then play a second match and again enter in your combined damage and your percent change - and then the site can generate an estimate for 65% / 85% / 95% data. It will only be accurate if your combined damage is accurate - which most people may not split apart their track assist and spot assist totals. 

In any case generally speaking for most tech tree tanks the 3 MoE requirement is usually somewhere in this range:

tier 10: 4-5K combined dmg

tier 9: 3-4k combined dmg

tier 8: 2-3K combined dmg

tier 7: 1.5-2.5k combined dmg

tier 6: 1.5-2k combined dmg

tier 5: 1-1.5k combined dmg

 

Not true for every tank in tier obviously, just a general guide. And this is where the average is, so you need to be earning combined damages higher than these values.



Avalon304 #38 Posted Oct 31 2018 - 20:05

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View Post13Disciple, on Oct 31 2018 - 07:13, said:

 

Yes, I've observed this same phenomena. I don't believe the Mod that shows the expected values in the garage is accurate. I don't believe it updates as often as your MoE does. The closer you do get to 95%, the more difficult it becomes to push it higher ;)

 

a low or 0 damage match can harm your marks by a large amount. Always push to do everything you can on a match that isn't shaping up in your favor. sure a 2k damage match for a tier 10 sucks for 3 marking, but it's substantially better than 1k or 0 damage.

 

Its been my experience that the numbers in the garage from MoE Extended are accurate with enough battles played in a tank over a recent period. I dont know how often it updates, but having used it to give myself a target, that target usually results in increasing the mark by a little bit.

_Kradok_ #39 Posted Nov 03 2018 - 14:11

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View Post13Disciple, on Oct 31 2018 - 09:04, said:

 

Thanks for informing me that my article is useless. Wargaming does not provide the server data directly to us as players - nor how the server is calculated.

 

The fact that this data is updated at server reset also means I can't just put down values that constantly change.

 

However you can use the math in this article to determine the server value yourself by using the % change after 2 matches. Given that you know both the combined damage for both matches, you can see what your % change is in MoE, and then you can calculate the 65% / 85% / 95% MoE expected values from that.

 

I suppose I could put an article together that explains how to do this math, but it's pretty simple to figure out with basic understanding of algebra.

 

 

One of the best, well-written ways to request someone to kiss your backside.

 

+1. 

 

Great read.  Lots of insight.  



EndUserLicenseAgreement #40 Posted Nov 26 2018 - 00:44

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I didn't read all of the other comments but you are saying that if you get 3,000 damage and 3,000 assist total(tracking and spotting) and 2k is spotting and 1k is tracking....you only get a combined 5k damage(not 6k) because it doesnt combine spotting and tracking?





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