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Some real thoughts about SPGs.

Artillery SPG

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AZandEL #41 Posted Oct 14 2018 - 22:19

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View Postmoon111, on Oct 13 2018 - 21:56, said:

It's funny when people say 'counter-battery'.  I have literately driven my french arty to the other side of the map, poked through a bush to spot the enemy arty pointing the other way.  Backed up into cover and hit him directly in the rear...  ...and it didn't kill him.

 

You've nerfed Arty to the point it can't guarantee a kill another Arty!

 

Most of the counter-battery I've faced, removes some of my HP... ...which really doesn't matter in an SPG whether it's 1000 or 1.  And stuns me for less then my reload time.

RNG stays... counter-battery is utterly a lost cause.

 

I one shot enemy artys all the time in my F3 - what are you even talking about

Duqe #42 Posted Oct 15 2018 - 14:22

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I thought there were going to be some real thoughts? I can barely classify OP's post as a sentient thought, therefore it's not very real either.

 

It's like a bird mimicking a noise.



Trauglodyte #43 Posted Oct 15 2018 - 15:46

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View PostPerson012345, on Oct 14 2018 - 21:06, said:

 

Only if you ignore the reality that nobody likes artillery. Lemmingrush plays for the win, he lets pubbies die because he knows he's better than the vast majority of them. What about me with my super-unicum 48%? artillery pisses me off the most because it prevents me flanking which is usually done in service of teammates, not myself. If I can distract a tanks (because it will sit there looking at the space that I just shot them from expecting me to pop out until it's dead from my teammates, and I'm ok with this) except that 9 times out of 10 any potential flanking positions are not arty safe as the cover has a different orientation than the main push. Your theory is just nonsense that isn't born out in the actual game or by the actual facts. If you actually play tanks you should be aware that it impedes aggressive play no matter the design of that aggressive play. And it's self evident that arty haters are not all super unicums who are just out for themselves, it's a view that is held across all skill levels and most styles of play that don't involve invisi-camping the whole game.

 

True.  But, then you have to look at that situation that the artillery is preventing you from flanking their friendlies.  This is the point of the checks and balances in this game.  Someone is strong pointing a location and needs to be moved?  Arty handles it.  Need to prevent people from pushing into an area?  Artillery does that.  Need to diminish the capabilities of a group of enemies?  Artillery does that.

 

NOW, I will say that artillery does all of the above a bit too well and does other things poorly that it should do well.  That is the problem with its current implementation.  The daze effect is fine and actually good for the game.  But, does the daze need to exist while still maintaining a 100% chance to damage tracks on an HE splash?  Artillery is supposed to be an AOE weapon yet the largest splash radius is only 13 meters which means that it fails at hitting multiple enemy and, as a result, still gets used as a single target action.  That single target action, by the way, was not supposed to be the case, as a WarGaming dev went on record, after the changes went live, saying that artillery should be disincentivized from attacking single targets and should, instead, focus on using the large splash to hit multiples.  That, of course, didn't happen because the community raged against a 20+ meter splash radius - I get the reasons why, on both sides.  The problem, though, is I'm still deadly on single targets, despite doing less damage, and my chance of hitting multiples only happens with super stupid enemy teams.

 

There are several levers that still need to be pulled, with arty.  I think aim time needs to be much shorter but the soft stats for bloom on turret/gun and hull traverse need to double or triple.  Doing that would make it near impossible, outside of RNGesus blessing you, from pulling snap shots on Lights.  I also think that the splash radius needs to double BUT HE needs to have penetration drop off on splash and the daze effect needs to be cut in half on 0 damage hits.  I think that the daze impact could be bigger but have it reduce in strength over time, as well.  In doing that, you're punished on the immediate hit but, if your kit is on cool down, you know that your crew will be ok as the effect fades over time.  I also think that 3x arty is garbage and that there should be an algorithm for map size and tier - 3x arty in a tier 10 game on Mines/Ensk is stupid!!! (underlined for emphasis)

 

Arty is a team based weapon.  Unfortunately, it still isn't entirely geared towards fulfilling that mission.  And, my fear is that it might never get there because WarGaming is still trying to get some overlap between how arty plays and the rest of the tanks.  That is, and this is just my opinion, the only reason why the battle assistant mod was brought into the game, since it gives you a "sniper view" playing arty.



gen_penguin #44 Posted Oct 15 2018 - 17:41

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Say what you want but when you go on Youtube and watch 10K plus damage uploads 90% of them has NO arty in those games because they would have been killed by arty long before they got to their amazing game!!

Trauglodyte #45 Posted Oct 15 2018 - 17:49

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View Postgen_penguin, on Oct 15 2018 - 17:41, said:

Say what you want but when you go on Youtube and watch 10K plus damage uploads 90% of them has NO arty in those games because they would have been killed by arty long before they got to their amazing game!!

 

I think that is another reason why people bag on arty.  Take arty out of the equation and you're less likely to get balanced.  The problem with that line of thinking is that, while people really love those big time games, they often come at the expense of teams that probably had no business playing this game.  At least with the presence of artillery, you've got something that can act as a means of slowing down those big damage monsters.  Sadly, it is a kind of contradictory line of thinking.  Do you want to roller coaster action movie?  Or, do you want to know that, while you're not very good, you've got something to back you up to prevent the boogeymonster from eating you?

Duqe #46 Posted Oct 15 2018 - 18:29

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View PostTrauglodyte, on Oct 15 2018 - 17:49, said:

 

I think that is another reason why people bag on arty.  Take arty out of the equation and you're less likely to get balanced.  The problem with that line of thinking is that, while people really love those big time games, they often come at the expense of teams that probably had no business playing this game.  At least with the presence of artillery, you've got something that can act as a means of slowing down those big damage monsters.  Sadly, it is a kind of contradictory line of thinking.  Do you want to roller coaster action movie?  Or, do you want to know that, while you're not very good, you've got something to back you up to prevent the boogeymonster from eating you?

 

Unicums aren't some force of nature that's beyond humanity and unstoppable. You can defeat a unicum with teamwork and common sense. Unicum are pattern players, the pattern they follow in how your team operates can help you predict how a unicum will move.

 

The problem with that is that the players you're defending are people who are unwilling to do this, they think they are the best and that they don't have to improve, that unicums are cheaters and they can't be fought against. Those people are the problem, not unicums. And artillery is a poor fix if it's designed to let bad players counter skill. Effort and learning the essence of the game should be the way to fight skilled players, not some broken mechanic which can damage and harass players with impunity.

 

So please, stop justifying it by saying that "oh, it's all we can do against those evil unicums", because it comes off as an excuse for not shaping yourself up. I'm a cripple, I have poor reactions and playing games like this is becoming increasingly harder with time. I maintain a rough ~50-53% win average and 1200-1600 WN8 through trying to read the map and outsmart the average player, not because I'm good at aiming and firing. Sadly, this does mean that I'm a reactive player whereas unicums are almost all proactive. I've just accepted that's an actual limitation I have. BUT! That doesn't mean I can't set myself up to engage their push.



Trauglodyte #47 Posted Oct 15 2018 - 19:21

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View PostDuqe, on Oct 15 2018 - 18:29, said:

 

Unicums aren't some force of nature that's beyond humanity and unstoppable. You can defeat a unicum with teamwork and common sense. Unicum are pattern players, the pattern they follow in how your team operates can help you predict how a unicum will move.

 

The problem with that is that the players you're defending are people who are unwilling to do this, they think they are the best and that they don't have to improve, that unicums are cheaters and they can't be fought against. Those people are the problem, not unicums. And artillery is a poor fix if it's designed to let bad players counter skill. Effort and learning the essence of the game should be the way to fight skilled players, not some broken mechanic which can damage and harass players with impunity.

 

So please, stop justifying it by saying that "oh, it's all we can do against those evil unicums", because it comes off as an excuse for not shaping yourself up. I'm a cripple, I have poor reactions and playing games like this is becoming increasingly harder with time. I maintain a rough ~50-53% win average and 1200-1600 WN8 through trying to read the map and outsmart the average player, not because I'm good at aiming and firing. Sadly, this does mean that I'm a reactive player whereas unicums are almost all proactive. I've just accepted that's an actual limitation I have. BUT! That doesn't mean I can't set myself up to engage their push.

 

I think that, and I probably did a bad job of saying it, some of what I wrote got misconstrued.  Artillery isn't all that stands in the way of teams and unicums.  Artillery is there to help manage teams pushing on friendly locations and/or helping friendlies to push on enemy locations.  Artillery is also there to slow or punish movement into key areas - sadly, most of these areas are largely designed by WarGaming as choke points and are something that I will agree with you to be toxic.  I do like, to a degree, being able to single fire on opponents.  But, I know that artillery isn't designed to do that and should not do that.  Through the current design, though, that is what is happening and is why so many people hate artillery.  When you build an AOE weapon that does single target damage, especially from out of sight, it makes for a bad design.

 

What I was getting at in my comment, to which you responded, is that WOT is a lot like modern day sports and, to be more specific, the disparity in enjoyment between the NFL/NBA and MLB.  In today's NFL, the rules have been set so that it allows for as much offensive action as possible.  The NBA is very similar.  If you take both the NFL and NBA, go back 20-50 years ago, and compare, the number of points being scored is night and day.  Some of that is the athletes, training, etc. and some of it is the game being tuned towards scoring.  In the MLB, home runs are super sexy and were sexier during the ball juicing and player juicing era.  Unfortunately, the chances of hitting a home run aren't great which means that baseball has long stretches of monotony.  WOT is very similar - without artillery, you've got a more open game where you can see big games of massive damage.  With artillery in game, especially the nuisance that is 2x or 3x and maps catering to such things, big games are less likely because artillery is there, by nature and by design, to suppress game actions, not to ruin fun but to slow the game down and make it more "tactical and strategic" (WG's words).  The dichotomy comes to this:  do you want to see big games and be on the end of those big games?  OR, do you just want to play?  Neither answer is right or wrong.  It is just a question.  Perhaps bringing in unicums in my original part was incorrect.  Perhaps I should have asked if you want to be part of or on the receiving end of landslide games or would you rather have a tool in game that could, potentially, slow the avalanche?

 

EDIT:  Just to emphasize a point, I'm not defending artillery and I am not an artillery apologist.  I know what arty is and where its shortcomings lie.  I also know where things probably need to be tweaked.  But, I also see WOT as a team game and accept the value of artillery in the team game.  As much as people grit their teeth against it, a single artillery per game is not game breaking and is, often times, a great thing to have in game.  It  just falls apart on poorly designed maps and when people think of themselves over the concept of team.  It is the Odell Beckham Jr. issue - are you, the individual, bigger than the team?


Edited by Trauglodyte, Oct 15 2018 - 19:24.


Duqe #48 Posted Oct 15 2018 - 19:26

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View PostTrauglodyte, on Oct 15 2018 - 19:21, said:

 

I think that, and I probably did a bad job of saying it, some of what I wrote got misconstrued.  Artillery isn't all that stands in the way of teams and unicums.  Artillery is there to help manage teams pushing on friendly locations and/or helping friendlies to push on enemy locations.  Artillery is also there to slow or punish movement into key areas - sadly, most of these areas are largely designed by WarGaming as choke points and are something that I will agree with you to be toxic.  I do like, to a degree, being able to single fire on opponents.  But, I know that artillery isn't designed to do that and should not do that.  Through the current design, though, that is what is happening and is why so many people hate artillery.  When you build an AOE weapon that does single target damage, especially from out of sight, it makes for a bad design.

 

What I was getting at in my comment, to which you responded, is that WOT is a lot like modern day sports and, to be more specific, the disparity in enjoyment between the NFL/NBA and MLB.  In today's NFL, the rules have been set so that it allows for as much offensive action as possible.  The NBA is very similar.  If you take both the NFL and NBA, go back 20-50 years ago, and compare, the number of points being scored is night and day.  Some of that is the athletes, training, etc. and some of it is the game being tuned towards scoring.  In the MLB, home runs are super sexy and were sexier during the ball juicing and player juicing era.  Unfortunately, the chances of hitting a home run aren't great which means that baseball has long stretches of monotony.  WOT is very similar - without artillery, you've got a more open game where you can see big games of massive damage.  With artillery in game, especially the nuisance that is 2x or 3x and maps catering to such things, big games are less likely because artillery is there, by nature and by design, to suppress game actions, not to ruin fun but to slow the game down and make it more "tactical and strategic" (WG's words).  The dichotomy comes to this:  do you want to see big games and be on the end of those big games?  OR, do you just want to play?  Neither answer is right or wrong.  It is just a question.  Perhaps bringing in unicums in my original part was incorrect.  Perhaps I should have asked if you want to be part of or on the receiving end of landslide games or would you rather have a tool in game that could, potentially, slow the avalanche?

 

EDIT:  Just to emphasize a point, I'm not defending artillery and I am not an artillery apologist.  I know what arty is and where its shortcomings lie.  I also know where things probably need to be tweaked.  But, I also see WOT as a team game and accept the value of artillery in the team game.  As much as people grit their teeth against it, a single artillery per game is not game breaking and is, often times, a great thing to have in game.  It  just falls apart on poorly designed maps and when people think of themselves over the concept of team.  It is the Odell Beckham Jr. issue - are you, the individual, bigger than the team?

 

The problem with artillery is that it's able to shoot from absolute invulnerability, it should have its ability to fire freely from above removed and replaced with direct-fire combat, only. Giving high-caliber, armorless TDs a reason to exist (and be lumped in with them). The main problem with artillery is that they can massively reduce a vehicle's combat capabilities from the comfort of a couch and mug of hot cocoa. You can hit the enemy where the enemy can't possibly hit you unless you're already losing massively.

Trauglodyte #49 Posted Oct 15 2018 - 19:42

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View PostDuqe, on Oct 15 2018 - 19:26, said:

 

The problem with artillery is that it's able to shoot from absolute invulnerability, it should have its ability to fire freely from above removed and replaced with direct-fire combat, only. Giving high-caliber, armorless TDs a reason to exist (and be lumped in with them). The main problem with artillery is that they can massively reduce a vehicle's combat capabilities from the comfort of a couch and mug of hot cocoa. You can hit the enemy where the enemy can't possibly hit you unless you're already losing massively.

 

I agree (comical note:  I have NEVER and will NEVER play arty while eating a sandwich, rubbing one out, sitting on my sofa, and/or drinking a mug of hot choc - not fair to my teammates and I would surely make a mess).  One of my biggest issues is the ranged snap shot RNG splash garbage versus Lights.  Syngery talks to it sometimes and this was something that I was thinking about a long time ago - arty should have a faster aim time, than now, but have much much worse soft stats when traversing the gun/turret (hull traverse soft stats shouldn't change, given the narrow gun arcs of a lot of SPGs).  If you turn to snap fire on a Light, your bloom should be massive, thus making it nearly impossible that you land anything.  Firing to dissuade someone from entering an area is fine.  Firing with a high likelihood of landing damage, let along a direct hit, is bad for the game.

 

One of my other points of contention is that, despite people not liking the daze effect, AOE splash radius needs to be greatly increased.  BUT, there needs to be a falloff for penetration and the strength of the daze needs to also drop off OR the dazes caused on 0 damage hits needs to be cut in half.

 

As I said, there are ways of bringing artillery more in line.  Unfortunately, a lot of what makes artillery powerful is the crappy mechanics on HE and super poor map designs.  Case in point, when taking the center of a map doesn't allow you to fire on opponents on the flanks, that is a REALLY crappy map.  It is especially crappy when taking the center of the map is a death sentence AND it doesn't offer tactical superiority.  But, the issues that are currently off with arty can still be managed and fixed.  There are a lot of us that want a better over all game experience.  While many people will hate on artillery, I imagine that few of them know or appreciate how helpless it feels when you see your team folding and knowing that there isn't a damn thing that you can do about it.  I would pay great money to be able to play like a super ghetto TD - it happened in real life, yet, why can't I do it now?  Sure, I can shotgun people but, when I'm in TD mode, I don't need 15 meters of AOE splash.  But, I also don't need a massive shell of uber damage and no splash when I'm in normal SPG mode.

 

We can get there with arty.  We just need to have good conversations about it.  Nothing can be done through mindless rabble, which is what most of what this forum and Reddit gets.


Edited by Trauglodyte, Oct 15 2018 - 19:43.


Bonfor #50 Posted Oct 15 2018 - 22:30

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As a new player, having come over from WoWs, I'm seeing a similar comparison between arty and CVs (aircraft carriers).  In Warships, at least, WG is revamping the whole RTS playstyle that CVs have, as it is too powerful.  The current satellite view and being able to manage multiple squadrons gives them total map control, countering the movements of DDs (destroyers) that were supposed to be the ultimate scouting class, similar to light tanks, while the CV itself hangs way in the back, out of view by the enemy usually until near the end of the match.  The rework will have CV players be in a third-person (but not satellite) view of only one squadron of planes, which kills the RTS style and puts the reins on map control, and makes the CV a more console-friendly ship as a result (they are releasing WoWs on console soon).  Perhaps a similar revamp for arty would work, such as giving arty a third-person view higher and farther than other tanks but eliminating the satellite view.  I wouldn't have more input than that right now, though, as I have not even touched that class yet, or gotten an idea of how well they work in upper tiers...I just know they are very influential in the lower tiers...

Anublister #51 Posted Oct 16 2018 - 00:11

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View Post24_inch_pythons, on Oct 13 2018 - 20:55, said:

 People are blowing the SPG problem out of all proportion to reality. Take a look at WoT replays, the last two patches. If you do you will see some facts about SPGs and their effect on gameplay, post nerf:

1. Unicums are still unicums despite SPGs

There is no such thing as a unicum arty-only SPG player.



Shortcult #52 Posted Oct 16 2018 - 06:25

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View PostAnublister, on Oct 15 2018 - 15:11, said:

There is no such thing as a unicum arty-only SPG player.

 

Wrong.  Don't think it's right to put anyone in the spotlight if they don;t want to be drawn into this, but we see posts on these very forums from purples that only play arty.

 

Factually they make much better posts than the rest of the pro arty crowd.



V_A_C_A #53 Posted Oct 16 2018 - 13:03

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View PostAnublister, on Oct 15 2018 - 20:11, said:

There is no such thing as a unicum arty-only SPG player.

 

Surely he's not an "arty-only" SPG player, but he have all arties 3 Marked, and play very well with them.


I'm not a unicum. At least not yet.


_Hani #54 Posted Oct 16 2018 - 13:49

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I mean I don’t get one shot by 6 arty per team like back in 2013 so I think arty is fine now.

Trauglodyte #55 Posted Oct 16 2018 - 15:46

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View PostKyungri_9MUSES, on Oct 16 2018 - 13:49, said:

I mean I don’t get one shot by 6 arty per team like back in 2013 so I think arty is fine now.

 

Ain't that the truth.

 

You know, I had a REALLY bad game last week or so in my GW Panther.  We were on Paris so, automatic bad artillery match.  And, I was lucky enough to draw 14 people that "just wanna go fast and pew pew" so, as you might imagine, the game lasted like 4 minutes.  Anyway, my team had an LTTB that decided, for whatever reason, to start TKing our other arty.  He put two shots into one of my other arty teammates, went blue, and got banned - apparently, he was a special kind with a recent record.  So, we're getting absolutely demolished, the inner city is gone, and I've got like maybe 90 seconds until the game comes crashing down on me.  I figure, what the heck, let's take out the blueberry, since I've got no shots on anyone.  I get behind the banned LTTB and put a round right into his tail pipe and do like 200 damage.  Put two more shots into him and he's still alive.  The enemy finally get to me and the game is over.

 

The point that I'm making, and this isn't to you Kyungri, is that artillery damage, even under the best of circumstances, is largely pitiful.  The GW Panther is tall, which means that -3 degrees of gun depression isn't enough to get an angle on the unangled butt of the LTTB, thus putting me against 60 mm, give or take, of effective armor.  Three shots against a +1 tier Light tank, at point blank range, and the wanker was still alive.  Artillery IS annoying, XVM arty is crappy, and 3x artillery IS bad for the game.  But, artillery IS NOT the boogeyman that people remember it to be.



oldguard_8 #56 Posted Oct 16 2018 - 15:55

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Arty in its current form is absolutely ruining the game.  They are too accurate, stunning even when missing a target.  They stun and hit even when you hug a rock or a building.  Having 2 or 3 a match enable them to essentially engage someone 2 or 3:1 not counting the real TANKS on the field.  The game is now a shooting gallery for a few players that play arty.  If arty remains this buff, they need to be limited to 1 or 2 max per match, and def 1 if its an auto loader.  This has driven many players out of the game, and many more to play less.  

 

WOT seems determined to force this type of weapon in the game, however, it is a TANK game and most peeps want to play TANKS - arty ATM is essentially like an air strike.  I suggest giving players the option....give us a box to check - arty/no arty in a game, just like the types of matches you want to play in.  Let players decide - 



atila_xD #57 Posted Oct 16 2018 - 15:56

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You do realize that ever since 1.0 theres literally no tracers, its just the shell. So it takes longer for you to realize their exact position, and by that time they moved. And usually even if you realize where they are 99.99% of the time they will just ignore you and never counter battery. Even wargaming despises arty and im sure they are aware players leave cuz of this incredibly broken mechanic. Wg tried to rebalance arty which ended in a mess and they havent added arty lines ever since. What does that tell you?

Edited by atila_xD, Oct 16 2018 - 16:05.


atila_xD #58 Posted Oct 16 2018 - 16:02

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View Post24_inch_pythons, on Oct 13 2018 - 22:04, said:

 

 You're funny. Stun does not even come close to making up for what was taken away from SPGs. Tier X SPGs used to do that 13k damage that non-SPG tanks are still getting.

 

Stun does not come close to one shotting tier 10s. Sure. But but dosent change the fact that they are both broken mechanics

Hurk #59 Posted Oct 16 2018 - 19:18

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View PostAnublister, on Oct 15 2018 - 16:11, said:

There is no such thing as a unicum arty-only SPG player.

 

 

considering arty starts at tier 2, you are correct. however, there are plenty of unicum level arty players. and a lot less of them than tank players... its a lot harder to carry in arty. 



Hurk #60 Posted Oct 16 2018 - 19:21

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View Postatila_xD, on Oct 16 2018 - 08:02, said:

Stun does not come close to one shotting tier 10s. Sure. But but dosent change the fact that they are both broken mechanics

light tanks are a broken mechanic. no way a moving vehicle is as stealthy as one in hiding.

 

vision is a broken mechanic, no way two tanks with the same optics and height have different view ranges.

damage is a broken mechanic. no way a tank is living through getting hit with a 155mm shell. 

 

etc. 

 

you can scream broken mechanic about any aspect of the game. it doesnt make you right, and it doesnt make it broken. 

 

broken things dont work as intended. arty does. 







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