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Type 5: Pay For Damage Problem

Type 5 Type 0 Kai

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Poll: Premium Shells (27 members have cast votes)

Has the Cost of Premium Shells Ever Held You Back From Using Them?

  1. Yes (10 votes [37.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 37.04%

  2. No. (17 votes [62.96%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 62.96%

If All You Had to Do Was Pay More Silver to Do More Damage Per Shot, Would You?

  1. Yes. (18 votes [66.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 66.67%

  2. No. (9 votes [33.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

Is Paying to Do Extra Damage Over Other Players Right?

  1. Yes. (12 votes [44.44%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 44.44%

  2. No. (15 votes [55.56%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 55.56%

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General_Greg101 #1 Posted Nov 03 2018 - 22:20

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  Alright, having owned a Type 5 for a while now (800+ battles) I can, honestly say there is only one gun, and one HE round on the Type, and that is the premium HE "Type 0 Kai". The standard HE only exists for the more economical minded player, but is forever damned by the fact that is does less damage than the premium. The premium has no drawbacks compared to the standard. The premium is equal in everything (burst radius, shell velocity, penetration etc.) except for damage, and cost.

 

The Hard Truth: If your a Type 5 that doesn't outright spam the premium HE your not a real Type 5, and it's a fact.

 

Arguing that cost is a balancing factor for the premium HE proves that the shell is pay for damage. Before you answer, read the next point...

 

     Arguing that skill is a balancing factor, doesn't work for once. The premium does more damage. Any scenario you can think of with the standard is overridden by the fact the premium could have done more damage in your thought up scenario. Even it is just 1 damage it is still more damage, and the above statement holds true.

 

     Every premium shell has a game play drawback, except for the Type 5's premium HE. APCR; loses pen over distance, less normalization than AP. HEAT: sucks against spaced armor. AP; lower pen than HEAT and APCR. All of these shells have cost, but also, have some catch for their benefits. The "catch" is what balances them, and that is the difference. The Type 5 has no catch with it's premium HE. There is no balancing factor in play to offset the increased damage of the premium. It is just cost; period.

 

  With all that being said. I would like to see a "middle of the road" HE shell for the Type. Where the shell does a little more damage than the current standard, but less than the current premium. Just have one shell type for the Type 5. Doing so would remove the "pay for damage" problem of the Type 5, and remove the wall between paying players, and non-paying ones.

 

     Final notes: Many will come in here, and simply say that the gun is overall bad for the game, and should be removed. If it stays the way is then yes it should be. The problem with this gun is the idea behind it. I don't have problem with how it can damage players anywhere, and in any position; all HE shells can do that already. I have a problem with the fact that if you pay a little more credits you can do more damage to players than someone who doesn't, and that does more bad for the game than anything else.

 

Update: Alright, I am not beyond admitting error. I was wrong in my statement that the Type is "the one and only" tank that has increased alpha damage with it's premium. However, the Type is still in special circumstances given it's oddball game play design.

 

    The chief issue that separates it, is that HE doesn't bounce. So even if you were driving say the ARL, and spammed premium (it's premium has increased alpha) it doesn't exactly equal more damage, because the premium will bounce off some areas just like the standard. The Type on the contrary will do more damage with it's premium than the standard when firing at the exact same area, and that what makes it imbalanced. It will do more damage for more money, and can't really be disputed.

 

So with this, knowledge the severity of the issue has decreased, but the core problem remains, and I'll admit it really has become a morality based question at this point. So I'll ask it once.

 

Is it right that the Type 5 does more damage for more money? That's what it does. Is it balanced? Some say yes, some say no.I say no, but the bigger question is: Is it right?

 

I'll update as the thread continues, unless it dies of course.

 

 


Edited by General_Greg101, Nov 08 2018 - 02:51.


_1204_ #2 Posted Nov 03 2018 - 22:32

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If I want to pay more in game currency to have better performing shells, how is it wrong to do so? You dont have to do the same, and you will make more money.

 

If you cant handle premium shells, play tier 1 or play a tank that doesnt rely on armor



General_Greg101 #3 Posted Nov 03 2018 - 22:47

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View Post_1204_, on Nov 03 2018 - 13:32, said:

If I want to pay more in game currency to have better performing shells, how is it wrong to do so? You dont have to do the same, and you will make more money.

 

If you cant handle premium shells, play tier 1 or play a tank that doesnt rely on armor

 

Your missing the point. This isn't your standard "shells penned my tank thread". This is something else. Re-read the post.

Noivy #4 Posted Nov 03 2018 - 23:07

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Premium ammo is the single biggest balancing issue within the game in my eyes. Only when its removed will actual tank balance will be able to take place in my eyes.

 

Do I use it both freely and when I have to? Yep. Do I like using it or its presence in the game? Hell no.



Isola_di_Fano #5 Posted Nov 03 2018 - 23:15

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View PostGeneral_Greg101, on Nov 03 2018 - 16:47, said:

 

Your missing the point. This isn't your standard "shells penned my tank thread". This is something else. Re-read the post.

 

Based on the poll questions and his last phrase (below) I would say it could be interpreted as such.

 

View PostGeneral_Greg101, on Nov 03 2018 - 16:20, said:

.

 I have a problem with the fact that if you pay a little more credits you can do more damage to players than someone who doesn't, and that does more bad for the game than anything else.

 



General_Greg101 #6 Posted Nov 03 2018 - 23:25

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View PostIsola_di_Fano, on Nov 03 2018 - 14:15, said:

Based on the poll questions and his last phrase (below) I would say it could be interpreted as such.

 

    I agree, but I'll end this issue right now, and say I think premium is balanced, except for the Type 5, and that is the point I am making here. Premium may need a re-work overall, but that's not the topic here. So stick to the topic. Is it right how I can do nothing, but fire the premium HE, and do more damage per shot than the other guy who doesn't? Plain, and simple. HEAT bounces. APCR bounces. Not HE. When I push 2 I get more damage no matter where it hits for nothing, but a cost, and spoilers: cost doesn't matter to me anymore.

    



Maltfourti #7 Posted Nov 03 2018 - 23:27

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I have a Type 5. Which shell I chose to fire is entirely situational. But I believe its about 20 to 25 percent of my total ammo use. Theres plenty of tanks you can damage badly by hitting low on the hull. I use the prem HE for other super hvy tanks and td's. It's not like it's ever gonna pen anything, except maybe arty, and you rarely catch those with a Type.

 



bilzbobaggins #8 Posted Nov 04 2018 - 00:25

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Holy crap.  I have a type 5 and never realized this.  Just spammed gold all game and it was the easiest 7k dmg game in some time.   Thanks for the heads up.

AnimeCrusader_XVM #9 Posted Nov 04 2018 - 00:40

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View PostNoivy, on Nov 03 2018 - 15:07, said:

Premium ammo is the single biggest balancing issue within the game in my eyes. Only when its removed will actual tank balance will be able to take place in my eyes.

 

Do I use it both freely and when I have to? Yep. Do I like using it or its presence in the game? Hell no.

 

is that why your still sitting at 2K recents?

RickEdwards #10 Posted Nov 04 2018 - 05:29

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View PostGeneral_Greg101, on Nov 03 2018 - 22:20, said:

  Alright, having owned a Type 5 for a while now (800+ battles) I can, honestly say there is only one gun, and one HE round on the Type, and that is the premium HE "Type 0 Kai". The standard HE only exists for the more economical minded player, but is forever damned by the fact that is does less damage than the premium. The premium has no drawbacks compared to the standard. The premium is equal in everything (burst radius, shell velocity, penetration etc.) except for damage, and cost.

 

The Hard Truth: If your a Type 5 that doesn't outright spam the premium HE your not a real Type 5, and it's a fact.

 

Arguing that cost is a balancing factor for the premium HE proves that the shell is pay for damage. Before you answer, read the next point...

 

     Arguing that skill is a balancing factor, doesn't work for once. The premium does more damage. Any scenario you can think of with the standard is overridden by the fact the premium could have done more damage in your thought up scenario. Even it is just 1 damage it is still more damage, and the above statement holds true.

 

     Every premium shell has a game play drawback, except for the Type 5's premium HE. APCR; loses pen over distance, less normalization than AP. HEAT: sucks against spaced armor. AP; lower pen than HEAT and APCR. All of these shells have cost, but also, have some catch for their benefits. The "catch" is what balances them, and that is the difference. The Type 5 has no catch with it's premium HE. There is no balancing factor in play to offset the increased damage of the premium. It is just cost; period.

 

  With all that being said. I would like to see a "middle of the road" HE shell for the Type. Where the shell does a little more damage than the current standard, but less than the current premium. Just have one shell type for the Type 5. Doing so would remove the "pay for damage" problem of the Type 5, and remove the wall between paying players, and non-paying ones.

 

     Final notes: Many will come in here, and simply say that the gun is overall bad for the game, and should be removed. If it stays the way is then yes it should be. The problem with this gun is the idea behind it. I don't have problem with how it can damage players anywhere, and in any position; all HE shells can do that already. I have a problem with the fact that if you pay a little more credits you can do more damage to players than someone who doesn't, and that does more bad for the game than anything else.

 

When you say "other prem rounds have downsides," this is not actually true for APCR... the normalization difference is slight and the damage over distance pen drop-off is a joke; at any range in this game, the APCR will have significantly more pen than the AP fired from the same gun. The slight reduction in effective armor you get from the increased normalization of AP is very little compared to the massive pen increase of APCR; at all angles APCR has a better chance to pen. There are no actual downsides for APCR; it is simply a "pay for extra pen" mechanic (also extra shell velocity). HEAT is not really much better, since they often have an even larger increase in pen from AP, but they actually have downsides. They actually come into play less often than most people think (even through spaced armor, HEAT has a higher pen chance than AP the majority of the time simply because the massive pen increase outweighs the increase to effective armor vs HEAT spaced armor gives), but at least they're there.

 

In any case, prem ammo, in all of its forms, is horrible for game balance and should be removed... for tier 10 guns. I could see them being necessary for tier 9 guns and down, since lower tier tanks need to fight tier 10s sometimes, but it is blatantly a "pay for advantage over enemy" mechanic. Also, Maus and Type 5 armor need to be nerfed too.


Edited by RickEdwards, Nov 04 2018 - 05:32.


_1204_ #11 Posted Nov 04 2018 - 22:14

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View PostGeneral_Greg101, on Nov 03 2018 - 22:47, said:

 

Your missing the point. This isn't your standard "shells penned my tank thread". This is something else. Re-read the post.

No I read it. And my statement holds true. More money means better shells.



Thats_Frosty #12 Posted Nov 06 2018 - 21:08

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I got my type 5 recently and found what OP says is true. Now i'm on the other side where I refuse to spam the premium ammo because

A) It's expensive and i'm trying to grind credits for my next tier 10

B) It just feels like a cheap mechanic that doesn't reward skill, it's literally a pay to win mechanic

If anything, I wanted to see them buff the soft stats on the 14cm gun to make it more competitive (just buff the pen values and maybe a slight aim time decrease) instead of automatically defaulting to the 15cm as "the gun" 



General_Greg101 #13 Posted Nov 07 2018 - 06:21

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View Post_1204_, on Nov 04 2018 - 13:14, said:

No I read it. And my statement holds true. More money means better shells.

 

     And I agree with you, if those shells are balanced. Any other tank (even arty), whether it be HE, HEAT, APCR, or even HESH out of 183; it is balanced, except for the Type 5. The Type 5 is one of few tanks in the game that will do more alpha damage with it's premium, but unlike other premium shells that bounce, or fail to penetrate some areas. The Type will do damage regardless of where it hits. You, can even hit the exact same areas, and simply do more damage than the standard ever would.

 

   This is a problem. The old "Pay to win" ("Pay for damage" in this case. Despite it's issues the Type's cannon is still not pay to win, it is pay for damage; I have to be clear on this) argument was always defeated by the fact that premium still bounces, or has some kind of drawback that prevents players from outright dominating. It has been the great offset for this argument for years. More penetration doesn't equal more damage (because skill), but what happens, when a tank's premium does more alpha damage than the standard, and doesn't rely on penetration values for damage? No tank existed like that until the Type 5 (or a tank based entirely around HE damage didn't exist). It is alone with this problem, and that is why were here today. 

 

Lastly, your pay for better shells idea isn't wrong, unless those shells are unbalanced, which the ones for the Type are not balanced.

 

View PostThats_Frosty, on Nov 06 2018 - 12:08, said:

I got my type 5 recently and found what OP says is true. Now i'm on the other side where I refuse to spam the premium ammo because

A) It's expensive and i'm trying to grind credits for my next tier 10

B) It just feels like a cheap mechanic that doesn't reward skill, it's literally a pay to win mechanic

If anything, I wanted to see them buff the soft stats on the 14cm gun to make it more competitive (just buff the pen values and maybe a slight aim time decrease) instead of automatically defaulting to the 15cm as "the gun" 

 

    Thank you sir. You have seen the point of this post (except it's pay for damage not win). It really is just money for damage in this tank, and it is the only tank in the game that does this. I would love to see the 14cm buffed, but people oppose it for some reason. It's like I want the gun that actually requires skill buffed, but nope. I guess players like being shot for 500 damage no matter what their position is with the super HE. I mean I'll give the players what they want I guess...

Edited by General_Greg101, Nov 08 2018 - 02:39.


RickEdwards #14 Posted Nov 07 2018 - 14:20

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Oof, the fact that you think other prem shells are balanced, especially at tier 10 is insane... They artificially give armored tanks an, often undue, nerf. Obviously the Type 5's and Maus's armor are op, but other heavies simply do not have enough armor to stand up to prem ammo in any effective way.

 

As for prem shells doing more damage; this has been in the game for a long time in the ARL 44's 105 that gets extra damage on its apcr for whatever ungodly reason. WG, it seems, is simply not interested in prem shell balance. The only nerfs I can remember to prem shells were done to the Obj. 268 which had 460 pen, I believe, and the 183, which had 270ish on its hesh... Which are honestly extreme outliers in terms of being op af.



General_Greg101 #15 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 02:20

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View PostRickEdwards, on Nov 07 2018 - 05:20, said:

Oof, the fact that you think other prem shells are balanced, especially at tier 10 is insane... They artificially give armored tanks an, often undue, nerf. Obviously the Type 5's and Maus's armor are op, but other heavies simply do not have enough armor to stand up to prem ammo in any effective way.

 

As for prem shells doing more damage; this has been in the game for a long time in the ARL 44's 105 that gets extra damage on its apcr for whatever ungodly reason. WG, it seems, is simply not interested in prem shell balance. The only nerfs I can remember to prem shells were done to the Obj. 268 which had 460 pen, I believe, and the 183, which had 270ish on its hesh... Which are honestly extreme outliers in terms of being op af.

 

   Well, I'll admit I did say their balanced, but I think "not balanced very well" would be more accurate, if not an under statement. Well, I did not know that the ARL had increased alpha with premium. Never went down the french line. Not a single game to date, nor bothered to any research beyond watching out for the auto loader ones. I'll have to go back, and edit my earlier post(s). I do agree it seems like WG doesn't pay much attention to premium shells anymore.

 

     I must add, that I wouldn't care so much about the extra damage of the Type's premium HE does if everyone wasn't spamming it. Obviously, there is no law saying you have to spam it, but it's kind of like you don't spam it you'll never match the performance of the other Type 5's that are spamming (and they are out there; I'm one of em;).

 

     What makes this even, more complicated is that the Type doesn't bounce with HE. The ARL does have increased alpha damage, but can still bounce. So it's like even if you spammed premium with the ARL it doesn't exactly equal more damage, because the premium will bounce off some areas just like the standard. The Type on the contrary will do more damage with it's premium than the standard when firing at the exact same area, and that's what kind of breaks it. 

 


RickEdwards #16 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 02:41

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View PostGeneral_Greg101, on Nov 08 2018 - 02:20, said:

 

   Well, I'll admit I did say their balanced, but I think "not balanced very well" would be more accurate, if not an under statement. Well, I did not know that the ARL had increased alpha with premium. Never went down the french line. Not a single game to date, nor bothered to any research beyond watching out for the auto loader ones. I'll have to go back, and edit my earlier post(s). I do agree it seems like WG doesn't pay much attention to premium shells anymore.

 

     I must add, that I wouldn't care so much about the extra damage of the Type's premium HE does if everyone wasn't spamming it. Obviously, there is no law saying you have to spam it, but it's kind of like you don't spam it you'll never match the performance of the other Type 5's that are spamming (and they are out there; I'm one of em;).

 

     What makes this even, more complicated is that the Type doesn't bounce with HE. The ARL does have increased alpha damage, but can still bounce. So it's like even if you spammed premium with the ARL it doesn't exactly equal more damage, because the premium will bounce off some areas just like the standard. The Type on the contrary will do more damage with it's premium than the standard when firing at the exact same area, and that's what kind of breaks it. 

 

I suppose it's fair that is "can" bounce, but it's 223 mm at tier 6... Like, that's enough to go through like 3 tanks at that tier. As long it is not auto-bounce, that'g going to pen...





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