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the_dude_76 #41 Posted Nov 07 2018 - 03:29

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View PostLeaveIT2Beaver, on Nov 06 2018 - 12:26, said:

Arty pays nothing in silver. NOTHING

 

?? The m44 is the highest earning non-premium tank in the game. Several other arty sit high on the silver/game list also.

Hurk #42 Posted Nov 07 2018 - 19:50

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View Postthe_dude_76, on Nov 06 2018 - 19:29, said:

?? The m44 is the highest earning non-premium tank in the game. Several other arty sit high on the silver/game list also.

http://www.vbaddict....ldname=creditsn

this is the list you are using, and you are correct, the M44 is the highest netting tank on average. however, its far from the highest grossing tank. 

http://www.vbaddict....reditsb&server=

its 229th. 

 



SquishySupreme #43 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 11:12

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Arty are fine now.  Really.  That the typical one gets one kill per match/does about a tank's worth of damage and is mostly a support role is correct.  1 person, 1 kill on average.  Balanced play.

What is not correct is their range, which should be much shorter so they have to move around like the low tier ones/not camp excessively.  

Half of the problem was solved, now we just need to fix the camping.

the_dude_76 #44 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 15:45

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View PostHurk, on Nov 07 2018 - 12:50, said:

http://www.vbaddict....ldname=creditsn

this is the list you are using, and you are correct, the M44 is the highest netting tank on average. however, its far from the highest grossing tank. 

http://www.vbaddict....reditsb&server=

its 229th. 

 

 

I was aware of this but since it's the net earnings that end up in your garage I felt it was the only relevant fact.

Trauglodyte #45 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 17:06

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View PostHellsfog, on Nov 06 2018 - 19:20, said:

 

I don't think you need to limit arty to one per battle. All WG needs to do is reduce the stun radius, time and splash damage and the class would be tolerable enough that most players wouldn't notice it. 

 

 

Actually, WG needs to take artillery in the other direction.

 

  • Increase the splash radius and stun timer to equal the bore of the weapon used (ie.  21 cm Morser would have a 21 m splash radius and a 21 s stun timer)
    • Premium round would have a 21 meter splash radius but damage would be reduced by 10-15%
      • roll would be to pound grouped tanks better than normal round
      • reduced damage would prevent abuse
    • Normal round would have a 14 meter splash radius (currently 12.9 meters); essentially 2/3rd of premium round radius
      • roll would be to pound individual tanks with the possible bonus of hitting grouped tanks in very close proximity
      • would play like current
  • Revert artillery to only carry guns that are historically accurate
    • Damage would be needed to be adjusted (in some cases) and/or reloads addressed to maintain current combat effectiveness
    • Doing this prevents -2 tier abuse, especially at the lower ranks, and it keeps artillery in line at the high end
  • Add penetration drop off, up to -50%, to AOE splash on ALL HE GUNS
  • Have stun duration and effectiveness drop off with damage
    • Doing this means that tanks on the fringe of the splash radius are stunned for less of a duration and less of an impact
    • Fall off for duration and effect offsets increased splash radius, especially on newly buffed & nerfed premium round
  • Nerf gun handling soft stats for turret traverse into the dirt and buff aim time
    • Reduces the chances of putting RNG shots into Lights that are moving at max speed
    • Offsets the soft stat nerf so that SPGs are still good at aiming at long distance shots in static areas
    • Overall, this makes it so that arty doesn't hurt for what is supposed to do but now sucks more for when it tries to stupidly snapshot fast movers - effectively mirrors real life (nobody snap shots in arty in RL!)
  • Add First Aid as a new crew perk
    • Would reduce duration of stun effects by -10%
  • Increase health of SPGs to match that of equal tier Light tanks
    • Greatly differentiate health by tank class of chassis (ie, Heavy/Super Heavy SPGs get more health, Light/Medium SPGs get less health)
  • Add a 3rd HE round
    • New round would do 20-25% more damage than the current standard round
    • New round would have a limited range of draw/render
    • New round would have a splash radius of 2/3rd of standard round (new standard 21 cm Morser round = 14 meters, new 3rd round of 21 cm Morser = 9.3 meters)
    • New round, in conjunction with buffed health, would give artillery the capability, albeit poor, to provide a more direct impact on the game for the team while maintaining overall purpose
      • would be a hybrid of current arty and a ghetto TD

 

When people want to change artillery, they always want to nerf it into the dirt.  The irony is that you can change artillery to have it do what it SHOULD do (note: it isn't doing what it should do) without it turning into something that is maddening.  Artillery SHOULD be able to be an area denial weapon.  Artillery should NOT be a terrain avoiding map-corner-to-corner HE TD.  The stun effect, much to everyone's chagrin, is important to the game.  The stun effect debuffs enemies which means that you're inadvertently buffing the health, armor, and time-to-kill of friendly tanks.

 

View Post1N73LL1G3NC3, on Nov 06 2018 - 20:58, said:

 

Arty is a fair and good thing for the game.

 

Sorry, I fall short of your requirements, so I'll stat pad a bit more and come back later...

 

owned!



Commit_HESHpacito #46 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 17:52

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]

 

Speaking of arty love... :thinking:



Guderian_PzIV #47 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 18:03

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I like arties. They are easy kills

Hurk #48 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 18:30

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View Postthe_dude_76, on Nov 08 2018 - 07:45, said:

I was aware of this but since it's the net earnings that end up in your garage I felt it was the only relevant fact.

no, because base income is modifiable via premium time and consumables, etc. 

 

so a higher grossing tank that is only losing a tiny amount normally, can become an income powerhouse once those bonuses are added in. meanwhile the M44, which makes little in the first place, will not ramp up well. 



gen_penguin #49 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 18:36

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View PostgrandthefttankV, on Nov 06 2018 - 19:29, said:

 

Learn to evade arty instead of whining about it. 

 

Lots of maps where it is impossible to be arty safe because there are zero places to hide.  Arty does not prevent camping, it encourages camping because if you want to be arty safe you need to sit and stay in an arty safe spot and not move !!

ca009877 #50 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 18:40

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I got butt hurt after the update where arty became a stunner and damage was possible even when your tank was hiding behind a building.  I sold all my arty and didnt play spg for a while.  I relented and got the m44 then moved to the m53/55.  I used a female reward crew member for commander and am happy with the m44 and its credit earning.  The m53/55 I use for the missions.  Still, I am on a lot of losing teams and can't get a win rate above 45%.

Edited by ca009877, Nov 08 2018 - 18:40.


Beepboopbeep_1 #51 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 18:44

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View Postgen_penguin, on Nov 08 2018 - 18:36, said:

 

Lots of maps where it is impossible to be arty safe because there are zero places to hide.  Arty does not prevent camping, it encourages camping because if you want to be arty safe you need to sit and stay in an arty safe spot and not move !!

He plays the forums, not the game so he doesn't understand. This is all new to him.



Hurk #52 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 18:49

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View PostTrauglodyte, on Nov 08 2018 - 09:06, said:

 

Actually, WG needs to take artillery in the other direction.

 

  • Increase the splash radius and stun timer to equal the bore of the weapon used (ie.  21 cm Morser would have a 21 m splash radius and a 21 s stun timer)
    • Premium round would have a 21 meter splash radius but damage would be reduced by 10-15%
      • roll would be to pound grouped tanks better than normal round
      • reduced damage would prevent abuse
    • Normal round would have a 14 meter splash radius (currently 12.9 meters); essentially 2/3rd of premium round radius
      • roll would be to pound individual tanks with the possible bonus of hitting grouped tanks in very close proximity
      • would play like current
  • Revert artillery to only carry guns that are historically accurate
    • Damage would be needed to be adjusted (in some cases) and/or reloads addressed to maintain current combat effectiveness
    • Doing this prevents -2 tier abuse, especially at the lower ranks, and it keeps artillery in line at the high end
  • Add penetration drop off, up to -50%, to AOE splash on ALL HE GUNS
  • Have stun duration and effectiveness drop off with damage
    • Doing this means that tanks on the fringe of the splash radius are stunned for less of a duration and less of an impact
    • Fall off for duration and effect offsets increased splash radius, especially on newly buffed & nerfed premium round
  • Nerf gun handling soft stats for turret traverse into the dirt and buff aim time
    • Reduces the chances of putting RNG shots into Lights that are moving at max speed
    • Offsets the soft stat nerf so that SPGs are still good at aiming at long distance shots in static areas
    • Overall, this makes it so that arty doesn't hurt for what is supposed to do but now sucks more for when it tries to stupidly snapshot fast movers - effectively mirrors real life (nobody snap shots in arty in RL!)
  • Add First Aid as a new crew perk
    • Would reduce duration of stun effects by -10%
  • Increase health of SPGs to match that of equal tier Light tanks
    • Greatly differentiate health by tank class of chassis (ie, Heavy/Super Heavy SPGs get more health, Light/Medium SPGs get less health)
  • Add a 3rd HE round
    • New round would do 20-25% more damage than the current standard round
    • New round would have a limited range of draw/render
    • New round would have a splash radius of 2/3rd of standard round (new standard 21 cm Morser round = 14 meters, new 3rd round of 21 cm Morser = 9.3 meters)
    • New round, in conjunction with buffed health, would give artillery the capability, albeit poor, to provide a more direct impact on the game for the team while maintaining overall purpose
      • would be a hybrid of current arty and a ghetto TD

 

When people want to change artillery, they always want to nerf it into the dirt.  The irony is that you can change artillery to have it do what it SHOULD do (note: it isn't doing what it should do) without it turning into something that is maddening.  Artillery SHOULD be able to be an area denial weapon.  Artillery should NOT be a terrain avoiding map-corner-to-corner HE TD.  The stun effect, much to everyone's chagrin, is important to the game.  The stun effect debuffs enemies which means that you're inadvertently buffing the health, armor, and time-to-kill of friendly tanks.

 

not sure i want to see splash grow more. already plenty of complaints about friendly fire. that said, i agree that arty cannot counter wolf packs properly, and that is one of its intended jobs.  I would love to see a change like that in Frontline however. 

 

I dont see any reason to change the guns arty have. it doesnt add anything to the game to do so. the current designs are already balanced for both playability and tech tree costs. 

 

pen drop off, i have always felt should be slightly different for all HE... at 100 meters, HE pen changes to zero. the round is now "fuzed" and all HE explosions should happen at point of impact -100mm to indicate the air burst nature of fuzed rounds. in addition, or perhaps, in corrilation to your first idea, fuzed HE rounds could have a larger splash radius or damage range than non-fuzed rounds. 

 

Stun duration is already controlled by damage and distance. i think what you are really after there is the change of the minimum stun duration to something less painful. however it exists so that people dont just wait it out and instead use their repair kit. Arty stun + reusable consumables go hand in hand. if we reduce/remove stun, we need to reduce/remove reusable consumables to match. 

 

nerfing handling doesnt matter, they already multiply against each other. the results are exactly the same no matter which number is larger.  you cannot significantly make arty aiming any worse without simply making them unplayable.  what most "moving" tanks dont realise is that im already predicting where you will be ~7 to 10 seconds before you get there. im not hitting a moving target, im hitting a target as it passes through the area im already pre-aimed. 

 

Crew skills are already being re-worked, and yes there are plans for stun related skills/perks. 

 

health is nice, but not sure how much it would matter without commiserate changes to mobility. I wont say no, but at the same time, i dont see it fixing anything other than filling in an existing deficit to the class... this also has the side effect of killing counter battery by and large. (if done in a vacuum anyway) I proposed much the same idea, but also at the same time general nerfs to arty to be more of long range heavy tanks, and removal of the one shot lottery. hence the zero pen on HE that is fuzed.

 

instead of the 3rd HE round, i would un-nerf arty back to their old ammo at ranges less than 100 meters. IE the shell is like their old shell until 100 meters, at which point it fuzes, drops to zero pen and gets the new larger splash.  also as a side effect, rounds hitting targets at less than 100 meters would not be stunned, or would be stunned significantly less. this would require coding changes, so not sure how practical it would be. 

 

I personally think you could balance arty today, right now, simply by removing the medkit its ability to remove stun. that would force enemy tanks to suck it up or move away like arty is intended to force them to do under this system. 


Edited by Hurk, Nov 08 2018 - 19:13.


pafman #53 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 18:50

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View PostSugaree, on Nov 06 2018 - 18:40, said:

I love arty. I began this game and barely played anything but HT and MT. I decided one day to learn to play arty and LT. I fell in love and put my all-female crew in my m53/55 and was having a blast. So much fun. Then came the neutering. Arty, despite its big guns, doesn't do much damage anymore. I'd like to suggest, however unpopular arty is, to return arty to its previous power, but limit how many are in a match to 1.

 

Such is my suggestion. Thank you.

 

let me translate,

"duh, the server population is too large.......  we need to remove half the players again......     i like cheetos!!!!!"  



Trauglodyte #54 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 19:28

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View PostHurk, on Nov 08 2018 - 18:49, said:

not sure i want to see splash grow more. already plenty of complaints about friendly fire. that said, i agree that arty cannot counter wolf packs properly, and that is one of its intended jobs.  I would love to see a change like that in Frontline however. 

 

I dont see any reason to change the guns arty have. it doesnt add anything to the game to do so. the current designs are already balanced for both playability and tech tree costs. 

 

pen drop off, i have always felt should be slightly different for all HE... at 100 meters, HE pen changes to zero. the round is now "fuzed" and all HE explosions should happen at point of impact -100mm to indicate the air burst nature of fuzed rounds. in addition, or perhaps, in corrilation to your first idea, fuzed HE rounds could have a larger splash radius or damage range than non-fuzed rounds. 

 

Stun duration is already controlled by damage and distance. i think what you are really after there is the change of the minimum stun duration to something less painful. however it exists so that people dont just wait it out and instead use their repair kit. Arty stun + reusable consumables go hand in hand. if we reduce/remove stun, we need to reduce/remove reusable consumables to match. 

 

nerfing handling doesnt matter, they already multiply against each other. the results are exactly the same no matter which number is larger.  you cannot significantly make arty aiming any worse without simply making them unplayable.  what most "moving" tanks dont realise is that im already predicting where you will be ~7 to 10 seconds before you get there. im not hitting a moving target, im hitting a target as it passes through the area im already pre-aimed. 

 

Crew skills are already being re-worked, and yes there are plans for stun related skills/perks. 

 

health is nice, but not sure how much it would matter without commiserate changes to mobility. I wont say no, but at the same time, i dont see it fixing anything other than filling in an existing deficit to the class... this also has the side effect of killing counter battery by and large. (if done in a vacuum anyway) I proposed much the same idea, but also at the same time general nerfs to arty to be more of long range heavy tanks, and removal of the one shot lottery. hence the zero pen on HE that is fuzed.

 

instead of the 3rd HE round, i would un-nerf arty back to their old ammo at ranges less than 100 meters. IE the shell is like their old shell until 100 meters, at which point it fuzes, drops to zero pen and gets the new larger splash.  also as a side effect, rounds hitting targets at less than 100 meters would not be stunned, or would be stunned significantly less. this would require coding changes, so not sure how practical it would be. 

 

I personally think you could balance arty today, right now, simply by removing the med its ability to remove stun. that would force enemy tanks to suck it up or move away like arty is intended to force them to do under this system. 

 

There is a lot of wiggle room where you could "fix" arty, so that it was less obtrusive.  I think that dropping the max down to 2 per game is a must, and I'm an artillery player.  3x is just too much, especially on a map like Malinovka where tanks only have one place to go.  The irony of it all is that, in the grand scheme, the three things that make artillery what so many people hate, in order, are:

 

  1. HE mechanic (hello Japanese super heavies, KV-2, SU-152, etc.),
  2. map design (hello Malinovka where only 6 map squares are arty-toxic)
  3. range + terrain avoidance

 

Now, I love artillery and I don't get two craps about the terrain avoidance because I know how many times I've missed shots on flat ground for reasons.  But, it is how HE gets calculated that makes people so pissed and the fact that maps are designed to a point where the inclusion of artillery, let along multiple artillery, just exacerbates the problem.  I don't care that people want to play this game as a Quake style shooter, going full Rambo.  If they get spotted and get popped by arty, that's their fault for playing too aggressively.  But, there is something to be said about maps designed were nobody cares about arty for 90% of the map or when there is a mechanic in the game that completely disregards aiming.  Artillery just happens to take full advantage of both of those aspects.

 

To my points, and we can discuss this offline if you'd like, my main line of thinking is this:

 

  • Single shot isn't what arty should be and the devs stated as such when they released arty; the reason for less splash is because WarGaming released, on the sandbox, the current damage values with splash radii upwards of 20 meters which made the community rage - I don't get why they didn't try a premium shell WITH that massive radius but with less damage to achieve the overall point of artillery
  • To me, the damage of artillery in a +2 versus -2 tank has always been bad, especially at the mid and low tiers.  If you change the shell radius, as I suggested, you'd need to look at damage or reload to compensate and we already have problems with tier 8 SPGs carrying tier 11 guns (GW Tiger P vs Hellcat, as an example).  Making a change to guns would open up damage at tiers 7-9 without being overbearing but that is just anecdotal and I have no numbers in front me to support - would need to do an analysis.
  • Pen drop off is a way to counter bigger initial damage on a change to shell radius but it would also go on to help temper the power of japanese heavies since so much of their damage comes from blast radius creep than initial impact - two birds with one stone
  • The concept of nerfing gun handling is to make bloom on movement so soul crushing that people don't try to pull the snap shots on targets in map grids NOT what they're currently targeting while also making it easier for smaller adjustments when you are aiming in the area - better in area handling, via faster aim time, and worse bloom on shifting shots that then gets tempered by faster aim time for bigger adjustments; just no "hey look, squirrel - FIRE!" crap
  • Health needs to be addressed, for both the quality of life of self defense and, when combined with a close range support shell, the ability to be something more than just an AOE monkey.  This would provide a skill gap for arty players to differentiate those that just want to camp and those that want to add more.  To your point, and I didn't address it, there would need to be a quality of life change in mobility standards.  For the life of me, I still don't understand why some of the German tanks and their same chassis TD and SPG version have different engines and/or why their terrain stats are so drastically different.  Tiger II and the GW Tiger have the same engine but the GW Tiger goes 7 kph faster - why?  Hopefully, you get my point.
  • Agree with your alternative idea for a 3rd round.  I think that we both agree that there needs to be a close range (ie, draw range max) option that doesn't create a situation where we've got tier 10 SPGs dropping HEAT shells on targets at 1200 meters.  With the new dispersion values, we can't go back to that.

 

As you said, artillery has areas where we can change it.  Quite frankly, it needs to be changed for the sake of the health of the game, since we're still not where it needs to be.  Some of it is numbers per game, other parts has to do with how it operates.  For me, NOTHING sucks more than having a team melt and me not be able to do anything to help.  The stun effect is a great add, though I'd be willing to say that the bulk of the community would be happier if it was heavier on hit and then faded in strength over the duration - anything to make it  not so dominating.  But, it also needs to exist in game so that artillery can help crowd control for team support, when damage isn't exactly an option.


We can get there.  The question is whether WarGaming wants it to get there.



Schnut #55 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 22:41

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reading this thread


Hurk #56 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 22:44

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nope. most arty are currently underpowered and need buffs. 

the_dude_76 #57 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 23:22

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View PostHurk, on Nov 08 2018 - 11:30, said:

no, because base income is modifiable via premium time and consumables, etc. 

 

so a higher grossing tank that is only losing a tiny amount normally, can become an income powerhouse once those bonuses are added in. meanwhile the M44, which makes little in the first place, will not ramp up well. 

 

That's a good point. But I'd still refute the claim that arty pays nothing. The M44 is still going to be the best earner for those who are free to play.

the_dude_76 #58 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 23:23

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View Postpafman, on Nov 08 2018 - 11:50, said:

 

let me translate,

"duh, the server population is too large.......  we need to remove half the players again......     i like cheetos!!!!!"  

 

Well people like you are still here so the claim that arty drives people away isn't exactly well backed up...

 

And at least he's playing a game that he enjoys so it seems kinda like you're the cheeto muncher here.



_Steel_Casket_ #59 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 23:32

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They need to bring arty back to it's glory days. This BS of stun damage is a friggin' joke.

Hurk #60 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 00:59

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View Postthe_dude_76, on Nov 08 2018 - 15:22, said:

 

That's a good point. But I'd still refute the claim that arty pays nothing. The M44 is still going to be the best earner for those who are free to play.

ove arty's base income does not represent the class. 

for instance, my average play of the m53/55 is -30k, should i use that number to represent the class? no, because i actively choose to use food for instance, which lowers profit by 20k. 






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