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DerJager #1 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 09:43

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Or limit them to 5 rounds per match.

 

Buff all the tanks using drastically underperforming guns relying on premium rounds (VK 4502A, T32 notable examples to my mind).

 

Nerf the superheavies so they're realistically vulnerable to the lowest penning heavies of equal tier via weak spots (looking at the VK 4502B, Maus, Type 4, and 5).

 

Remove HE from high-caliber, high-penetration guns. Japanese heavy tanks don't even need a line of sight on you to damage your tank, which is [edited]asinine.

 

 

Basically the core problem is that armor is one of the three key elements in the game's balancing. However, you have the ability to drastically alter that balance for your personal tank by pressing one key. In fact pressing the 2 key is just about the wisest tactical choice one can make when engaging a high tier heavy; their armor is not, after all, balanced with premium ammunition in mind.

 

To illustrate my point, I submit to you the emperical fact that, mathematically based on the nominal armor values, it is impossible for the E100 (one of the more heavily overall armored tanks that aren't quite in the superheavy range) to make itself immune to its own gun on level terrain when it's angles are optimized for total overall protection from a single point of fire.

No matter what angle you are at, there exists some point on the tank reasonably below the 311mm penetration of the 128mm APCR round.

 

And there are other specialized vehicles firing rounds of roughly comparable penetration on standard ammunition. APCR rounds are not necessary for balance of medium and light tanks; engaging heavies of equal tier from the front is an idiotic expectation to have.

 

 

 



The_Illusive_Man #2 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 10:33

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Removing gold rounds is not the solution. Rather rebalancing all the other variables is. Things like RNG. Things like over buffed tanks. There are alot of things in this game that goes into needing to use gold rounds. Most better players either use them only when needed, or in curtain tanks, shoot nothing but them. This is due to the fact that RNG is the biggest problem with the game. You can have all the skill, but RNG will still mess with you. 

DerJager #3 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 10:49

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View PostThe_Illusive_Man, on Nov 08 2018 - 01:33, said:

Removing gold rounds is not the solution. Rather rebalancing all the other variables is. Things like RNG. Things like over buffed tanks. There are alot of things in this game that goes into needing to use gold rounds. Most better players either use them only when needed, or in curtain tanks, shoot nothing but them. This is due to the fact that RNG is the biggest problem with the game. You can have all the skill, but RNG will still mess with you. 

 

 

Without the nebulous generalizations, I defy you to justify the need for premium ammunition in the context of a team game where the mix of tanks is supposed to cover each other's weaknesses (assuming the tanks are balanced such that any given tank has a roughly even chance of defeating a given tank of equal tier and class).

 

 

The entire justification for premium ammunition effectively boils down to "sometimes aiming is hard, and WG has put broken tanks into the game".

 

The reality is that sometimes the tank you are in should not fight the tank you're facing. We accept this fact when it's something like "don't brawl in a sniper tank" 1v1ing an Obj 430 in an E50 is probably a bad idea. So why is engaging a Type 4 from the front in a T-54 a necessity when the other example is not?



Bootknife #4 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 11:49

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Fix RNG, let the dust settle and then we'll talk.  Until RNG is addressed, no.

 

I do agree with DerJager, don't mess with a tank that's too much for yours.  My comments are specifically directed at those matches where you or your whole team gets one big long low roll.  Rounds that should pen and do damage either bounce, don't pen or just completely miss.  After I bounce or don't pen a couple of rounds, I switch ammo.  As long as RNG creates an unlevel playing field, I'll do what is necessary (within the rules) to level it up.



MacDaddyMatty #5 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 13:03

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No.

ClutchPin #6 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 13:17

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Folks can't stress this enough. A gold round is not an automatic pen.  You can use gold rounds all you want in the higher tiers, but if you choose to ignore your aiming points, your chance of penetrating is only marginally better.  A lot of newer players assume that they have been penetrated by someone using a gold round when in all actuality it was poor positioning on their part or the other player knew where to aim.  I’m pretty confident you can load gold and fire directly at the front of my T95, and you will not pen.  Gold rounds like arty are part of the game deal with it.



Rude_Elf #7 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 13:33

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And you always have a "team" that covers you?  Just because it says "team" does not mean that they always work as a team.  And as posted above, prem rounds DO NOT mean auto pen.  When I fire a round, I AIM.  I do not fire when leaving the spawn circle like so many do, that waste shells.  When I fire a prem round I can guarantee you I AIM for the weak spot, no matter what round I fire, and I still have had rounds that bounce.  Blame it on RNG, MM, a good tank wiggle or what ever, it happens.  And I agree, pick your fight if you can.  And there is no shame in breaking off if your butt is being kicked and finding another gun to take out of the game.  Tunnel vision on one tank often gets you killed.   

Edited by Rude_Elf, Nov 08 2018 - 13:34.


BabA_YA6A #8 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 13:44

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View PostDerJager, on Nov 08 2018 - 16:43, said:

Or limit them to 5 rounds per match.

 

Buff all the tanks using drastically underperforming guns relying on premium rounds (VK 4502A, T32 notable examples to my mind).

 

Nerf the superheavies so they're realistically vulnerable to the lowest penning heavies of equal tier via weak spots (looking at the VK 4502B, Maus, Type 4, and 5).

 

Remove HE from high-caliber, high-penetration guns. Japanese heavy tanks don't even need a line of sight on you to damage your tank, which is [edited]asinine.

 

 

Basically the core problem is that armor is one of the three key elements in the game's balancing. However, you have the ability to drastically alter that balance for your personal tank by pressing one key. In fact pressing the 2 key is just about the wisest tactical choice one can make when engaging a high tier heavy; their armor is not, after all, balanced with premium ammunition in mind.

 

To illustrate my point, I submit to you the emperical fact that, mathematically based on the nominal armor values, it is impossible for the E100 (one of the more heavily overall armored tanks that aren't quite in the superheavy range) to make itself immune to its own gun on level terrain when it's angles are optimized for total overall protection from a single point of fire.

No matter what angle you are at, there exists some point on the tank reasonably below the 311mm penetration of the 128mm APCR round.

 

And there are other specialized vehicles firing rounds of roughly comparable penetration on standard ammunition. APCR rounds are not necessary for balance of medium and light tanks; engaging heavies of equal tier from the front is an idiotic expectation to have.

 

 

 

Instead of whining here on the forum pick up the pace and carry (at least your sorry butt)!

 

 



MacDaddyMatty #9 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 13:54

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DerJager,

 

Your idea for "invulnerable" tanks would kill the game.


 

Without prammo:

- 90% of stock guns (and many top guns) would be not be viable 2 tiers down or against anything with moderately thick skin. So, no more grinding without a boatload of free XP which few players have.

- Matches would result in the 15 teams of Maus' + Type 5s. Maybe a Jageroo. And 6 Arty every match.

- No effective long range shots unless the target was a tracked paper-armor vehicle.


 

The facts are that prammo gives a velocity and pen buff, but not in a manner that greatly affects the outcome of the shot.


 

WoT is a strategy game and extremely nuanced. For every plus, there is a minus.

As I stated to a previous poster angry the could not play in "God-mode"...


 

Dear Chess,

But please remove the Rook, Knight, and Bishop as they are OP.

Also nerf the Queen so that she has the same stats as the pawns.

Otherwise, great game!



Lesser_Spotted_Panzer #10 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 14:07

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View PostDerJager, on Nov 08 2018 - 04:49, said:

 

 

Without the nebulous generalizations, I defy you to justify the need for premium ammunition in the context of a team game where the mix of tanks is supposed to cover each other's weaknesses (assuming the tanks are balanced such that any given tank has a roughly even chance of defeating a given tank of equal tier and class).

 

 

The entire justification for premium ammunition effectively boils down to "sometimes aiming is hard, and WG has put broken tanks into the game".

 

The reality is that sometimes the tank you are in should not fight the tank you're facing. We accept this fact when it's something like "don't brawl in a sniper tank" 1v1ing an Obj 430 in an E50 is probably a bad idea. So why is engaging a Type 4 from the front in a T-54 a necessity when the other example is not?

 

What you say in theory is good, but in reality it usually breaks down because the maps are so small. Often there are only 2-3 placed on the map where you can actually fight. Chances are you are going to run into a higher tier tank, OP tank, or a tank with better armor. The other issue is that your team mates a frequently either so bad or tunnel visioned that they are not there to help you when you need them. If you go and hide in the back in a sniping tank, often you don't have supporting shots for your team mates, and basically you are a waste of space.


 



Awestryker #11 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 14:21

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Companies exist to make money...gold rounds make money...therefore gold rounds will continue to exist...

 

Go beat a different dead horse...



US_3rd_Army #12 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 14:48

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I agree with ClutchPin and others, premium rounds are not  automatic pen, they can still bounce off tanks. I have shot premiums that bounced, and people have shot premium rounds at me that have bounced. Here's an example, it's a bit old as it's from a few years ago, but I think it helps example what I'am getting at:

It was a few years ago on Peral River, Iam playing my T95 and I defending the north passage and a Death Star (FV215b 183) comes out and hits me for 0 damage. Death Star shot HESH and it hit the gun mantle (Also this was before the HESH round got nerfed). Even though they give you more pen, you still need to aim your dam shots.

 

Even then premium rounds have their own trade-offs, HEAT rounds can't do jack against space armor, and APCR loses penetration values faster then AP rounds over longer distances (even though it will still have higher pen values then the standard AP round). 

 

Another point I would like to make because I feel sometimes gets lost in the arguments on premium spam is many higher tiered tanks have normal AP that for many other tanks would their premium round. My standard round in my M48A5 and T-62A is APCR. I can bet their are people out there who don't know this and will think Iam shooting premium rounds when in fact iam shooting my normal AP round. Just wanted to leave that there.

 

To sum it up, premium rounds are a part of the game. They have their advantages as well as their drawbacks. The question is whether or not the player will be able to use to their fullest potential.



Benjeeh_CA #13 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 15:14

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View PostThe_Illusive_Man, on Nov 08 2018 - 01:33, said:

Removing gold rounds is not the solution. Rather rebalancing all the other variables is. Things like RNG. Things like over buffed tanks. There are alot of things in this game that goes into needing to use gold rounds. Most better players either use them only when needed, or in curtain tanks, shoot nothing but them. This is due to the fact that RNG is the biggest problem with the game. You can have all the skill, but RNG will still mess with you. 

 

there is never a need for gold rounds of you do your in  a position that you shouldn't be in

Fireplace4 #14 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 15:35

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View PostBenjeeh_CA, on Nov 08 2018 - 09:14, said:

View PostThe_Illusive_Man, on Nov 08 2018 - 01:33, said:

Removing gold rounds is not the solution. Rather rebalancing all the other variables is. Things like RNG. Things like over buffed tanks. There are alot of things in this game that goes into needing to use gold rounds. Most better players either use them only when needed, or in curtain tanks, shoot nothing but them. This is due to the fact that RNG is the biggest problem with the game. You can have all the skill, but RNG will still mess with you. 

 

there is never a need for gold rounds of you do your in  a position that you shouldn't be in

Never is a strong word. The case can be made that maneuverable tanks may not need them (but you're not going to do all that well in plenty of fast heavies or slow mediums without them), but what about, say, a tier 8 syper heavy down two tiers? Do you expect him to go medium flank? Face it, the maps in world of tanks do not have enough flanking lanes to allow many side on engagements and the maps that do it would be suicide to take a slow heavy that way. Plus on the heavy flank the combat is usually decided by a face to face slug fest.

 

Most tanks are fairly balanced around premium rounds at this point (not perfectly, but relatively fairly balanced). If you can't bounce premium shells in a tank with armor then you're doing it wrong.

 

The answer isn't to rework the entire game, do you trust Wargaming to do that right? No, the best solution I think would be to lower the damage done by premium shells to maybe 65% of the damage dealt by standard shells and lower the cost to a comparable level. That way if you choose to fire nothing but gold it wouldn't cost much more (still be an increased cost due to having to fire more shells to do the same damage), but you would be destroying your DPM. Better players who can aim would have much higher DPMs than players who  fire nothing but premium



the_dude_76 #15 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 15:37

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View PostDerJager, on Nov 08 2018 - 03:49, said:

 

The reality is that sometimes the tank you are in should not fight the tank you're facing.

 

The reality is that sometimes these are the only two tanks left in the game. So the tank that "shouldn't be fighting" the other tank just automatically loses?? Just because he's in the wrong tank and can do nothing to the other tank?? Sorry but I'll also vote no.



RickEdwards #16 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 15:37

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Honestly, if, in this game, tanks only fought their own tier, this game would actually be remarkably balanced if there were no prem rounds. Obviuously there are some outliers, however, those outliers only came into existence because they were balanced with prem rounds in mind (Type5/Maus). But when a tier 8 has to go against a tier 10, they should at least have a little bit of a chance. Basically, a gun's prem rounds should have the pen of a gun of the highest tier it plays against. Yes, shooting a tier 8 with your tier 8 using prem is scummy, but unfortunately it is necessary for lower tiers to have those.

 

That being said, tier 9 gun's prem rounds' pen should be like a tier 10 gun's pen and tier 10 prem rounds should be removed. Then, those tanks mentioned earlier, the Type 5 and Maus, need to have their armor reverted to pre-buff, and tier 10 will be way more balanced. Lower tiers will be as balanced as possibly while having some ability to be a threat to higher tiers.



Almighty_Johnson #17 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 15:41

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View PostMacDaddyMatty, on Nov 08 2018 - 07:54, said:

DerJager,

 

Your idea for "invulnerable" tanks would kill the game.


 

Without prammo:

- 90% of stock guns (and many top guns) would be not be viable 2 tiers down or against anything with moderately thick skin. So, no more grinding without a boatload of free XP which few players have.

- Matches would result in the 15 teams of Maus' + Type 5s. Maybe a Jageroo. And 6 Arty every match.

- No effective long range shots unless the target was a tracked paper-armor vehicle.


 

The facts are that prammo gives a velocity and pen buff, but not in a manner that greatly affects the outcome of the shot.


 

WoT is a strategy game and extremely nuanced. For every plus, there is a minus.

As I stated to a previous poster angry the could not play in "God-mode"...


 

Dear Chess,

But please remove the Rook, Knight, and Bishop as they are OP.

Also nerf the Queen so that she has the same stats as the pawns.

Otherwise, great game!

 

And to add to that, there are many tanks that are so underpowered they cannot function even in tier.  Never mind when they are 1 or 2 tiers down.

There is a reason they call the T54 the "Heat-54".  The regular ammo has such a terrible pen it's basically useless.

Other times APCR is used because it has a higher shell velocity, allowing for longer range shots.  Never mind that it has better penetration.    Especially when shooting at moving targets.

Such notable low pen guns include:

Tier 8 Panther II with 75mm gun (AP round pen is 120)

Tier 9 E50 with the same gun is also 120

The Pershing, T-34-2, T-44, ISU152, Obj 704 all have stock guns with under 130 Pen

VK 45.02 and Indien Panzer both have only 132.

 

These are high tier tanks.  Some are noted for having really scary, high alpha guns.  But the stock configuration couldn't pen it's way out of a cardboard box....

 

And on the subject of HE in large caliber derp guns, you're appealing to the stone.  HE ammunition has insanely low pen value.  While the damage potential is very high if the round goes in, it is very troll.  Since I have a lot of experience with it, I'll use the T95 as an example. (T-30 has the same top gun)

Using the largest gun ( the 155 T7) the HE rounds have an average pen value of 88 (64-113) with an average damage of 950 (713-1188).  IF THE ROUND PENS

If the round doesn't pen, I've done from Zero damage up to about 600, with 300-ish being fairly typical.

Nothing is more frustrating than hitting a tank with a gigantic bomb for 25 damage......

 

So no.  In short, your assumption that premium ammunition is the cause of such heartache in the game is inaccurate.  Premium ammo is a tool that serves a legitimate purpose.  That doesn't mean some people use it as a crutch, but it isn't a negative element either.  By asking for it's removal you are effectively saying, remove all snow tires.  If you can't drive with regular ones, you suck at driving......

 



RickEdwards #18 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 15:43

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View Postthe_dude_76, on Nov 08 2018 - 15:37, said:

 

The reality is that sometimes these are the only two tanks left in the game. So the tank that "shouldn't be fighting" the other tank just automatically loses?? Just because he's in the wrong tank and can do nothing to the other tank?? Sorry but I'll also vote no.

 

What it should have been is, "you should not fight that tank you're facing in this situation." If you're faster, which you likely are if you feel prem is necessary, you can control where you fight and when you fight. Fast tanks have an advantage in open maps, slow, heavily armored tanks are supposed to have an advantage in close range maps, but with prem rounds, they break even with those fast tanks, at best.



MeMeBigBoi #19 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 15:50

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View PostMacDaddyMatty, on Nov 08 2018 - 06:54, said:

DerJager,

 

Your idea for "invulnerable" tanks would kill the game.


 

Without prammo:

- 90% of stock guns (and many top guns) would be not be viable 2 tiers down or against anything with moderately thick skin. So, no more grinding without a boatload of free XP which few players have.

- Matches would result in the 15 teams of Maus' + Type 5s. Maybe a Jageroo. And 6 Arty every match.

- No effective long range shots unless the target was a tracked paper-armor vehicle.


 

The facts are that prammo gives a velocity and pen buff, but not in a manner that greatly affects the outcome of the shot.


 

WoT is a strategy game and extremely nuanced. For every plus, there is a minus.

As I stated to a previous poster angry the could not play in "God-mode"...


 

Dear Chess,

But please remove the Rook, Knight, and Bishop as they are OP.

Also nerf the Queen so that she has the same stats as the pawns.

Otherwise, great game!

 

oh, MacDaddyMatty. How is it possible that you could steal the words directly from my brain. Please take all my gold, have my clan wars strats, just please get out of my head.

 

10/10 comment 



RickEdwards #20 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 17:19

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View PostMacDaddyMatty, on Nov 08 2018 - 13:54, said:

DerJager,

 

Your idea for "invulnerable" tanks would kill the game.


 

Without prammo:

- 90% of stock guns (and many top guns) would be not be viable 2 tiers down or against anything with moderately thick skin. So, no more grinding without a boatload of free XP which few players have.

- Matches would result in the 15 teams of Maus' + Type 5s. Maybe a Jageroo. And 6 Arty every match.

- No effective long range shots unless the target was a tracked paper-armor vehicle.


 

The facts are that prammo gives a velocity and pen buff, but not in a manner that greatly affects the outcome of the shot.


 

WoT is a strategy game and extremely nuanced. For every plus, there is a minus.

As I stated to a previous poster angry the could not play in "God-mode"...


 

Dear Chess,

But please remove the Rook, Knight, and Bishop as they are OP.

Also nerf the Queen so that she has the same stats as the pawns.

Otherwise, great game!

 

The Maus and Type 5 are only strong because they were buffed as a direct counter to how powerful prem ammo is. Below tier 10 I agree gold should exist because of how they have to play up tiers, but at tier 10 it is almost game breakingly bad for balance.

 

As for "every plus having a minus," if the prem ammo is APCR, there are only pluses; if it is heat, it is kinda like -1 and then +5, in terms of the scale of the plus and minuses.






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