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MacDaddyMatty #21 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 17:32

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View PostRickEdwards, on Nov 08 2018 - 11:19, said:

 

The Maus and Type 5 are only strong because they were buffed as a direct counter to how powerful prem ammo is. Below tier 10 I agree gold should exist because of how they have to play up tiers, but at tier 10 it is almost game breakingly bad for balance.

 

As for "every plus having a minus," if the prem ammo is APCR, there are only pluses; if it is heat, it is kinda like -1 and then +5, in terms of the scale of the plus and minuses.

 

We agree to disagree.

As for HEAT...

I rarely shoot it anymore due to the cost, slow shell velocity, tendency to pre detonate on a fence, or non pen / zero damage on impact.


Edited by MacDaddyMatty, Nov 08 2018 - 17:35.


RickEdwards #22 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 18:00

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View PostMacDaddyMatty, on Nov 08 2018 - 17:32, said:

 

We agree to disagree.

As for HEAT...

I rarely shoot it anymore due to the cost, slow shell velocity, tendency to pre detonate on a fence, or non pen / zero damage on impact.

 

Cost has nothing to do with the actual balance... As for velocity, armored tanks are generally slow, so also not a problem. Hitting fences can happen, but it is super situational and not really a balancing factor. As for non-pens: even through spaced armor, they have a better chance to penetrate a target than standard AP/APCR more often than not. In fact, I saw an RU med pen a tier 10 strv shooting directly through the front HEAT shield, which was made specifically to counter HEAT rounds... That same shot with APCR definitely would have not penned.

MacDaddyMatty #23 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 18:13

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View PostRickEdwards, on Nov 08 2018 - 12:00, said:

 

Cost has nothing to do with the actual balance... As for velocity, armored tanks are generally slow, so also not a problem. Hitting fences can happen, but it is super situational and not really a balancing factor. As for non-pens: even through spaced armor, they have a better chance to penetrate a target than standard AP/APCR more often than not. In fact, I saw an RU med pen a tier 10 strv shooting directly through the front HEAT shield, which was made specifically to counter HEAT rounds... That same shot with APCR definitely would have not penned.

 

Completely disagree.

:)


 

Cost is a consideration of balance. Many who are vexed by this particular game mechanic call for cost increase.

Over use of Prammo makes for a negative credit economy in the majority of tanks and players.


 

Shell velocity has a MAJOR impact on hitting a target against anything not point blank that is moving. Player's skill in leading and anticipating a target is greatly hampered by a slower shell, even before considering RNG.


 

Anecdotal evidence is just that. An occasional anomaly does not sway the regular behavior of the mechanic.


Edited by MacDaddyMatty, Nov 08 2018 - 18:18.


ryuuto #24 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 18:22

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All they really need to do is limit the total amount of premium rounds a tank can carry to 10 to 20 percent the total ammo capacity of the vehicle FRU. 

DerJager #25 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 19:30

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Acknowledging that lower tiers will face higher tiers, I still suggest limiting the amount of premium ammunition, but not removing it entirely. However Tier 9 and 10 guns should not be given premium rounds.

 

 

 

And many assume I'm imagining prem = autoaim. Having to feed premium rounds through the 105mm on my E75 on occasion, I recognize that it is not an automatic pen, but still greatly improves your ability to engage targets.

 

However, I maintain that adding more pen by pressing the 2 key is not a solution to bad balance, and instead actively contributes to the awful balancing.

 

And the idiot Japanese and other high tier derp guns fill the same role as prem in the balancing scheme; to make armor less important.

 

 

Another excellent example is the turrets on the German tier 9 heavies. Amazingly resistant to fire, forcing the enemy to engage me in something other than a straight up slug fest 1v1 when I find a good position. Notably, situations like this are EXACTLY what TD's and artillery are for.

 

Another good example is the KV4. It's very resistant to fire right up until the 2 key gets pressed, at which point its usefully protected areas go down significantly.

 

 

 

The balancing mechanics for EVERY situation already exist in the game. The simple hard reality, and one that many of you seem resistant to is that no, you will not have the ability to handle every situation, and you will have to rely on the team a bit more.

 

 

Does this make pub matches [edited]sometimes? Absolutely. Does it also improve pub matches by improving the overall balance.? Absolutely.

 

Trade offs (looking at you MacDaddy). 



MacDaddyMatty #26 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 20:41

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View PostDerJager, on Nov 08 2018 - 13:30, said:

Acknowledging that lower tiers will face higher tiers, I still suggest limiting the amount of premium ammunition, but not removing it entirely. However Tier 9 and 10 guns should not be given premium rounds.

 

 

 

And many assume I'm imagining prem = autoaim. Having to feed premium rounds through the 105mm on my E75 on occasion, I recognize that it is not an automatic pen, but still greatly improves your ability to engage targets.

 

However, I maintain that adding more pen by pressing the 2 key is not a solution to bad balance, and instead actively contributes to the awful balancing.

 

And the idiot Japanese and other high tier derp guns fill the same role as prem in the balancing scheme; to make armor less important.

 

 

Another excellent example is the turrets on the German tier 9 heavies. Amazingly resistant to fire, forcing the enemy to engage me in something other than a straight up slug fest 1v1 when I find a good position. Notably, situations like this are EXACTLY what TD's and artillery are for.

 

Another good example is the KV4. It's very resistant to fire right up until the 2 key gets pressed, at which point its usefully protected areas go down significantly.

 

 

 

The balancing mechanics for EVERY situation already exist in the game. The simple hard reality, and one that many of you seem resistant to is that no, you will not have the ability to handle every situation, and you will have to rely on the team a bit more.

 

 

Does this make pub matches [edited]sometimes? Absolutely. Does it also improve pub matches by improving the overall balance.? Absolutely.

 

Trade offs (looking at you MacDaddy).

 

I agree with the vast majority of this.

Except... without Prammo, most tier 9+10 LTs and MTs cannot pen many HTs and HTDs.



DerJager #27 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 20:47

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Sure they can. From the side and weak spots.

MacDaddyMatty #28 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 20:58

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View PostDerJager, on Nov 08 2018 - 14:47, said:

Sure they can. From the side and weak spots.

 

On small funnel maps?

The reality is that tanks class would not be played as it would be a liability and No Fun™

View PostMacDaddyMatty, on Nov 08 2018 - 07:54, said:

DerJager,

 

Your idea for "invulnerable" tanks would kill the game.


 

Without prammo:

- 90% of stock guns (and many top guns) would be not be viable 2 tiers down or against anything with moderately thick skin. So, no more grinding without a boatload of free XP which few players have.

- Matches would result in the 15 teams of Maus' + Type 5s. Maybe a Jageroo. And 6 Arty every match.

- No effective long range shots unless the target was a tracked paper-armor vehicle.


 

The facts are that prammo gives a velocity and pen buff, but not in a manner that greatly affects the outcome of the shot.


 

WoT is a strategy game and extremely nuanced. For every plus, there is a minus.

As I stated to a previous poster angry the could not play in "God-mode"...


 

Dear Chess,

But please remove the Rook, Knight, and Bishop as they are OP.

Also nerf the Queen so that she has the same stats as the pawns.

Otherwise, great game!

 


 



Nixeldon #29 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 21:15

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View PostDerJager, on Nov 08 2018 - 13:30, said:

 The simple hard reality, and one that many of you seem resistant to is that no, you will not have the ability to handle every situation, and you will have to rely on the team a bit more.

 

 

Why are you promoting more reliance on teammates who, at their best, are extremely unreliable? That doesn't seem like a favorable proposition.



RickEdwards #30 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 23:28

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View PostMacDaddyMatty, on Nov 08 2018 - 20:41, said:

 

I agree with the vast majority of this.

Except... without Prammo, most tier 9+10 LTs and MTs cannot pen many HTs and HTDs.

 

Actually the only tanks at tier 10 that are difficult to pen from the front with standard ammo are the Type 5, Maus, and maybe the T110E3. All the rest have obvious, easily hittable weak spots. Unless you're talking about a hulled-down heavy tank, in which case you really shouldn't be able to pen it. Even then, most heavies have weak spots on top of their turrets.

 

I know this because those 3 tanks are the only ones I ever even shoot prem ammo at, assuming I even loaded any in my tank, which I often don't.



the_dude_76 #31 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 23:32

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View PostRickEdwards, on Nov 08 2018 - 08:43, said:

 

What it should have been is, "you should not fight that tank you're facing in this situation.

 

Which means nothing when the situation is 2 tanks left. Sorry but the idea that you always get to choose the engagement is not realistic. That other guy likely knows the strengths and weaknesses of his tank also. He'll be trying to set up a favorable situation just like you will. I don't care how fast your tank is you're not going to get around a Maus that's backed into a corner or a thousand other possible scenarios where gold ammo is the best option.



RickEdwards #32 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 23:42

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View Postthe_dude_76, on Nov 08 2018 - 23:32, said:

 

Which means nothing when the situation is 2 tanks left. Sorry but the idea that you always get to choose the engagement is not realistic. That other guy likely knows the strengths and weaknesses of his tank also. He'll be trying to set up a favorable situation just like you will. I don't care how fast your tank is you're not going to get around a Maus that's backed into a corner or a thousand other possible scenarios where gold ammo is the best option.

 

Then you cap; if you can't (because he's camping base or something), then your team wasn't good enough and you should feel lucky you got a draw instead of a loss.

 

Also, I have always been saying the Maus needs to be reverted to pre-buff armor. Pre-buff Maus armor can be penned with standard AP. Not quite as easily as with prem ammo, but that Maus deserves to have a chance as well.



the_dude_76 #33 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 07:47

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View PostRickEdwards, on Nov 08 2018 - 16:42, said:

 

Then you cap; if you can't (because he's camping base or something), then your team wasn't good enough and you should feel lucky you got a draw instead of a loss.

 

Also, I have always been saying the Maus needs to be reverted to pre-buff armor. Pre-buff Maus armor can be penned with standard AP. Not quite as easily as with prem ammo, but that Maus deserves to have a chance as well.

 

A- A draw is as good as a loss.

B- Obviously in such a scenario the Maus is still at an advantage most of the time even if gold if being used.

C- It's great that we can come here and share our opinions but you'll have to accept that the vast majority of players will disagree with yours. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



RickEdwards #34 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 15:34

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View Postthe_dude_76, on Nov 09 2018 - 07:47, said:

 

A- A draw is as good as a loss.

B- Obviously in such a scenario the Maus is still at an advantage most of the time even if gold if being used.

C- It's great that we can come here and share our opinions but you'll have to accept that the vast majority of players will disagree with yours. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Does the Maus really though? Discounting the fact that I have been arguing for a Maus nerf in conjunction with tier 10 prem removal, so this argument has no actual bearing on what I have been saying, it's like this: every medium is going to get at least 2 shots for every 1 from the Maus; even a Russian medium will take 10 shots to kill a Maus from full hp (less if it is a 105 med or a 430U). The Maus will generally kill the med in about 5 for the Russian medium example. Yes, rng might screw one over, but most of the time this is how many shot it will take. As you can see, they are basically even... Maus needs half as many shots, but med shoots twice as many times. And that's for a 100 mm RU med; a 105 mm med or a 430U has an advantage because they take less than 10 and still get the 2 shot per 1 of the Maus. You should also take into account that if there is a full HP Maus at the very end of the game, your team was really bad and, once again, your team does not deserve a win. Also, that camping Maus is likely not a good player and has a high chance of bouncing his rounds, so my money is on the medium. Of course, with what I want for Maus/Type 5 nerf and prem removal, this senario plays out roughly the same, since the turret face could be penned straight on with standard pre-buff and the Maus is a bad 1v1 tank because of bad dpm.

 

Also it is not the vast majority that disagree with me, and you're delusional if you think it is. And there is also a difference between disagreeing with me and someone wanting it to stay op so that they can exploit it and stat pad; cause those people are on your side, obviously.



FearTheBadger #35 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 19:51

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Still learning where to pen certain tanks so generally don't use APCR unless is some sort monster heavy tank

Dogg_zilla #36 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 20:30

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They might as well remove premium rounds because they dont work 50% of the time. 

 

RNG makes them useless in situations where they should clearly penetrate. 

 

There is no reason they should bounce off weak spots or off FLAT SHOTS TO THE SIDE. 



EmperorJuliusCaesar #37 Posted Nov 10 2018 - 03:46

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View PostDerJager, on Nov 08 2018 - 15:43, said:

Or limit them to 5 rounds per match.

 

Buff all the tanks using drastically underperforming guns relying on premium rounds (VK 4502A, T32 notable examples to my mind).

 

Nerf the superheavies so they're realistically vulnerable to the lowest penning heavies of equal tier via weak spots (looking at the VK 4502B, Maus, Type 4, and 5).

 

Remove HE from high-caliber, high-penetration guns. Japanese heavy tanks don't even need a line of sight on you to damage your tank, which is [edited]asinine.

 

 

Basically the core problem is that armor is one of the three key elements in the game's balancing. However, you have the ability to drastically alter that balance for your personal tank by pressing one key. In fact pressing the 2 key is just about the wisest tactical choice one can make when engaging a high tier heavy; their armor is not, after all, balanced with premium ammunition in mind.

 

To illustrate my point, I submit to you the emperical fact that, mathematically based on the nominal armor values, it is impossible for the E100 (one of the more heavily overall armored tanks that aren't quite in the superheavy range) to make itself immune to its own gun on level terrain when it's angles are optimized for total overall protection from a single point of fire.

No matter what angle you are at, there exists some point on the tank reasonably below the 311mm penetration of the 128mm APCR round.

 

And there are other specialized vehicles firing rounds of roughly comparable penetration on standard ammunition. APCR rounds are not necessary for balance of medium and light tanks; engaging heavies of equal tier from the front is an idiotic expectation to have.

 

 

 

 

Premium ammo is being reworked.  Type 4 and Type 5 heavies are not.   WG likes them as they are.



EmperorJuliusCaesar #38 Posted Nov 11 2018 - 13:50

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View PostRickEdwards, on Nov 09 2018 - 21:34, said:

View Postthe_dude_76, on Nov 09 2018 - 07:47, said:

 

A- A draw is as good as a loss.

B- Obviously in such a scenario the Maus is still at an advantage most of the time even if gold if being used.

C- It's great that we can come here and share our opinions but you'll have to accept that the vast majority of players will disagree with yours. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Does the Maus really though? Discounting the fact that I have been arguing for a Maus nerf in conjunction with tier 10 prem removal, so this argument has no actual bearing on what I have been saying, it's like this: every medium is going to get at least 2 shots for every 1 from the Maus; even a Russian medium will take 10 shots to kill a Maus from full hp (less if it is a 105 med or a 430U). The Maus will generally kill the med in about 5 for the Russian medium example. Yes, rng might screw one over, but most of the time this is how many shot it will take. As you can see, they are basically even... Maus needs half as many shots, but med shoots twice as many times. And that's for a 100 mm RU med; a 105 mm med or a 430U has an advantage because they take less than 10 and still get the 2 shot per 1 of the Maus. You should also take into account that if there is a full HP Maus at the very end of the game, your team was really bad and, once again, your team does not deserve a win. Also, that camping Maus is likely not a good player and has a high chance of bouncing his rounds, so my money is on the medium. Of course, with what I want for Maus/Type 5 nerf and prem removal, this senario plays out roughly the same, since the turret face could be penned straight on with standard pre-buff and the Maus is a bad 1v1 tank because of bad dpm.

 

Also it is not the vast majority that disagree with me, and you're delusional if you think it is. And there is also a difference between disagreeing with me and someone wanting it to stay op so that they can exploit it and stat pad; cause those people are on your side, obviously.

 

WG will never remove premium rounds from tier 10, that's short-sighted thinking on your part and just plain stupid.  Remove prem from tier 10s and everyone would just play tier 9s.....which would ruin the monetization of the game.



RickEdwards #39 Posted Nov 11 2018 - 16:39

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View PostEmperorJuliusCaesar, on Nov 11 2018 - 13:50, said:

 

WG will never remove premium rounds from tier 10, that's short-sighted thinking on your part and just plain stupid.  Remove prem from tier 10s and everyone would just play tier 9s.....which would ruin the monetization of the game.

 

Clearly you did not look at what I said earlier:

 

View PostRickEdwards, on Nov 08 2018 - 15:37, said:

Honestly, if, in this game, tanks only fought their own tier, this game would actually be remarkably balanced if there were no prem rounds. Obviuously there are some outliers, however, those outliers only came into existence because they were balanced with prem rounds in mind (Type5/Maus). But when a tier 8 has to go against a tier 10, they should at least have a little bit of a chance. Basically, a gun's prem rounds should have the pen of a gun of the highest tier it plays against. Yes, shooting a tier 8 with your tier 8 using prem is scummy, but unfortunately it is necessary for lower tiers to have those.

 

That being said, tier 9 gun's prem rounds' pen should be like a tier 10 gun's pen and tier 10 prem rounds should be removed. Then, those tanks mentioned earlier, the Type 5 and Maus, need to have their armor reverted to pre-buff, and tier 10 will be way more balanced. Lower tiers will be as balanced as possibly while having some ability to be a threat to higher tiers.

 

Couple things worth pointing out; I said tier 10 guns, as in when you look at the module and it says "Tier X" on the gun. I also called for the nerf of certain tanks that were balanced for prem spam. In addition I called for tier 8 and 9 prem rounds to have the same pen as tier 10 standard rounds; there would be no reason for everyone to just play tier 9s, since you could go to tier 10 and have a tank that has better everything and does not have to spend extra for the same pen. It is not near sighted at all; WG would still get money because people low tier would still use prem and tier 10s, even without prem ammo, still lose credits most of the time unless you have a prem account. This is not short-sighted; what is short sighted is having a game mechanic that is clearly unbalanced in the game. Such a thing drives players away, thus killing the game in the long run.



Myrenous #40 Posted Nov 11 2018 - 21:33

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I don't think prammo should be totally removed but I would be more in favor of a rebalance you can look at almost any tank in the game and the difference between regular ammo and prammo pen values is just ridiculous the 2 most notable would be the jp100 with its 299mm standard pen and its retarded 420mm pen with prammo, my second most notable is the type 5 which doesn't gain a pen buff but rather a extra 300 points of damage which is outrageous considering how stupidly easy it is to play the type 5 considering almost every map is corridor and your frontal armor is god awful... for the other guy.

 

ive been saying for a long long time now that the game mechanics around the ammo and the penetration and armor ratings really does need a rebalance because im sorry but in a lot of cases pressing 2 at the beginning of the match does increase your damage output how much depends on the players skill it will either be a lot or just 1-2 shots worth. aside from the financial constraint which isn't a balancer and hasn't been since prammo was made purchasable for silver there really isn't a downside to using it over standard ammo except in a few rare cases like spaced armor clearly heat wont work unless you hit the place where the gap in the space is small enough to still pen and do damage as noted earlier against the STRV if you hit the heat shield near to the bottom you will pen and do damage everytime, or if your facing off against an e100 or maus you will be able to farm a fair amount of HPs off before they return fire or find cover because they are so slow that once they commit to a push they really don't have much choice to retreat based on when you open fire.

 

Larger artillery sized guns aka the 183 should probably not get HE rounds I cant tell you how many times ive been hit in the side and simply overmatched for a ridiculous amount of damage and this really does create an impressive gap in the advantage they already have over everything in the game that isn't likewise a TD. anyone can say "your clearly in the wrong spot" but I would argue since 90% of the maps are corridors that's just simply not accurate you have no choice really your in 1 or 3-4 corridors cross your fingers its not there, secondly I would also state that TDs by design will 99% of the time get the first shot which I can say with my t9 Foch I use to devastating effect because I can basically erase a tank from the game and most of the time not even get spotted and for a flank to win 1 tank is often more then enough. Same could be said for HE shells overmatching any light or medium tanks side lights get instagibbed mediums are instantly crippled and no longer viable to be part of any push or offensive.

 

and under no circumstances should the prammo be implemented like it was for the type 5 … that is the most egregious violation of balance in the game not only because it is a direct DPS gain but they put it on one of the best assault tanks in the game hit R derp things for stupid damage win.

 

this game used to be so much better before prammo was made available to purchase for silver instantly making it the go to solution for facing higher tiered armor.

 

On a less serious note I would love to see WoTs economy shifted to be more like WoWS where it feels less like a punishment to play top tiered games 2 thumbs up for that being implemented wink wink hint hint WG!!






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