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Can we do match making based on players skill?


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TankKing187 #21 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 19:17

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View Postfred_632, on Nov 08 2018 - 19:09, said:

 

Yeah MM does suck at matching vehicles, The MM now just grabs random vehicles of the same tier and adds them to battle. Like a Maus against a T57 Heavy or a Badger against a grille 15, it just doesn't make sense to me at all. By The time a T57 reloads the Maus took away 40-60% of it's HP maybe even more, And Grille will never really pen a Badger from the front when it's hull down so the Badger will kill it quickly. I think that's why people freak out about MM.

 

If MM wants to match 5 heavies against 5 heavies and 4 TD's against 4 TD's and 4 med's against 4 meds and so on....you're screwed...to MM it doesn't matter what it is as long as it says Heavy, medium or TD you'll get matched against a Heavy, meadium or TD

 

"If MM wants to match 5 heavies against 5 heavies and 4 TD's against 4 TD's and 4 med's against 4 meds and so on....you're screwed...to MM it doesn't matter what it is as long as it says Heavy, medium or TD you'll get matched against a Heavy, meadium or TD" this is not what i meant by saying skilled base, atleast have close skilled tankers each side tomato battle/oranger battle/so on... i experienced many battle that i was expecting some team battle but some players dont know how to help each others, due to the fact that it is no matter how hard you try (above good players) it is nothing really do to turn the table so they try to play one vs 15 game dont care about team but self.

 



iAmEbola #22 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 19:29

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View PostTankKing187, on Nov 08 2018 - 11:33, said:

atleast have it balanced as plyers' skill it wont happen as many times as it is...

 

Wrong.  Frequency wouldn't change.  Blowouts will happen regardless of skill composition.  

 

Learn how to play better, it is easier now than ever before.  All it takes is a little effort.  Stop expecting things to be given to you on a silver platter.  



Sgt_Varik #23 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 19:34

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I honestly don't know if it is possible without greatly extending the amount of time it takes to get into a match.

 

Part of the problem is the way MM is set up, the 3 5 7 spread.

 

In order for skill based MM to function you would need to start accounting for a LOT of variables.

 

For example:  Would the goal be to get the same skill level across the top tier tanks, or would it be sufficient to have one sides best players be in the top tier tanks while the other sides best players are in the mid-bottom tier tanks?  Then there is also the issue of tank classes, as the game seems to try to put the same tank classes on either side (so if 1 side has a tier 8 heavy, the other side will also generally have a tier 8 heavy), would putting the high skill player on one side in a medium tank and on the other side a heavy tank be sufficient?  Or should the algorithm try to also ensure that they are in the same class of tanks?

 

It starts getting pretty complicated pretty fast, and implementing these things are honestly not easy to do.



TankKing187 #24 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 19:35

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View PostiAmEbola, on Nov 08 2018 - 19:29, said:

 

Wrong.  Frequency wouldn't change.  Blowouts will happen regardless of skill composition.  

 

Learn how to play better, it is easier now than ever before.  All it takes is a little effort.  Stop expecting things to be given to you on a silver platter.  

 

i am learning as time goes by nothing you to worry about. that little effort as bottom tier/ poorly played top tier i cant do anything about it and nothing to learn from it. there are actually good players and i give respect to them but just telling me learn more or play better that is just ignore/elegant, even 10k+ players are still learning. 1k+ is not make me expert but atleast i can put some thoughts on forum.

 



fred_632 #25 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 19:36

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View PostTankKing187, on Nov 08 2018 - 18:17, said:

 

"If MM wants to match 5 heavies against 5 heavies and 4 TD's against 4 TD's and 4 med's against 4 meds and so on....you're screwed...to MM it doesn't matter what it is as long as it says Heavy, medium or TD you'll get matched against a Heavy, meadium or TD" this is not what i meant by saying skilled base, atleast have close skilled tankers each side tomato battle/oranger battle/so on... i experienced many battle that i was expecting some team battle but some players dont know how to help each others, due to the fact that it is no matter how hard you try (above good players) it is nothing really do to turn the table so they try to play one vs 15 game dont care about team but self.

 

 

You don't understand what anyone said here, do you??? You can have the best MM in the world with no bugs at all it depends on the player who plays, in the end, MM will still be "useless" too someone. 

 

MM cannot match you based on skill because tomorrow a bunch of purple players might have a bad day and play like potatoes, and Tomatoes a good day and play like a boss. So, in the end, your team will still win or lose and you can be on either side, someone has to win and someone has to lose FACT!!!! Be it 15-0, 15-3 or 15-5 or whatever. like I was told numerous times when I started playing WoT, instead of trying to change or complain about MM, the tanks or whatever learn to play with it and get better at it 


Edited by fred_632, Nov 08 2018 - 19:39.


Insanefriend #26 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 19:41

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View PostTankKing187, on Nov 08 2018 - 12:17, said:

 

"If MM wants to match 5 heavies against 5 heavies and 4 TD's against 4 TD's and 4 med's against 4 meds and so on....you're screwed...to MM it doesn't matter what it is as long as it says Heavy, medium or TD you'll get matched against a Heavy, meadium or TD" this is not what i meant by saying skilled base, atleast have close skilled tankers each side tomato battle/oranger battle/so on... i experienced many battle that i was expecting some team battle but some players dont know how to help each others, due to the fact that it is no matter how hard you try (above good players) it is nothing really do to turn the table so they try to play one vs 15 game dont care about team but self.

 

 

The mm doesn't just match heavy vs heavy it does take into account the type of heavy tank.  At least it does during prime time, in the morning when server populations are lower it tends to loosen the rules to decrease overall queue time.  This has been what I've observed, from playing both in the morning and at night. 

TankKing187 #27 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 19:42

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View Postfred_632, on Nov 08 2018 - 19:36, said:

 

You don't understand what anyone said here, do you??? You can have the best MM in the world with no bugs at all it depends on the player who plays, in the end, MM will still be "useless" too someone. 

 

MM cannot match you based on skill because tomorrow a bunch of purple players might have a bad day and play like potatoes, and Tomatoes a good day and play like a boss. So, in the end, your team will still win or lose and you can be on either side, someone has to win and someone has to lose FACT!!!! Be it 15-0, 15-3 or 15-5 or whatever. like I was told numerous times when I started playing WoT, instead of trying to change or complain about MM, the tanks or whatever learn to play with it and get better at it 

 

i am getting better at it, and i wasnt talking about me being better or worst cant you see some players way more experience than both of us complain samethings, maybe you dont understand what others complain about to change and help make better comunity for new player and experts.

you go do drive tanks blindly i am not stupid doing what WG ask you to believe.



BillDing1 #28 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 20:05

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Sbmm wont fix any of the issues with mm. For lower skill levels it may make the blow out problems worse having no one skilled enough not to yolo the first tank in sight. All sbmm will do is make high skill players quit playing random battles cause the huge increase in queue times and bad camp fest games with the occasional blow out when people mess up. :mellow: 

 

 

(also would bring in the "elo hell" aspect of other sbmm games where people blame their team for their mistakes and never get better)


Edited by BillDing1, Nov 08 2018 - 20:06.


Copacetic #29 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 20:07

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Damn this noob cries alot

iAmEbola #30 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 20:07

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View PostTankKing187, on Nov 08 2018 - 12:35, said:

i am learning as time goes by nothing you to worry about. that little effort as bottom tier/ poorly played top tier i cant do anything about it and nothing to learn from it. there are actually good players and i give respect to them but just telling me learn more or play better that is just ignore/elegant, even 10k+ players are still learning. 1k+ is not make me expert but atleast i can put some thoughts on forum.

 

Ah, but if you took the time to learn the mechanics of the game (i.e. search the forums to see the HUGE amount of tutorials and guides), you will see that it doesn't matter if you are top/middle/bottom tier.  There are always techniques that allow one to dominate the game by exploiting mechanics that most others don't take the time to learn.  You can't learn them by simply playing the game...if you could, there wouldn't be players out there with 40,000+ games that win 45% of the time.

 

This game isn't intuitive, it requires 3rd party knowledge to teach.  At the same time it requires one to actually go out and discover this information for one's self.  

 

You can put all the thoughts you want on the forum.  Doesn't mean jack if you have zero gumption to learn anything.  Complaining about something and asking for free rides, when this forum is peppered with literally thousands of posts exactly like yours will help you not.  One thing that is consistent, is you will be told to go read up on the mechanics, read the guides, watch players better than you, apply yourself to learning, and then execute.

 

Just because you have an idea, doesn't mean it is a good one.  

 

To hit on your last part there regarding 10k players still learning.  Yes, I am in that category myself.  I devour as much information as I can in order to get to the next level, to carry more as bottom tier and to crush the enemy beneath my boot in battle.  The difference between you and me is I actually apply myself instead of begging to be given a free ride.

 

May be harsh, but either you will take heed or become one of those that refuses to learn and ends up being a detriment to every team you are on.  Choice is yours.  I advise you to heed my advice to learn.


Edited by iAmEbola, Nov 08 2018 - 20:10.


MacDaddyMatty #31 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 20:49

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View Postfred_632, on Nov 08 2018 - 13:36, said:

 

like I was told numerous times when I started playing WoT, instead of trying to change or complain about MM, the tanks or whatever learn to play with it and get better at it

 

+1

 

https://www.clandday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=551#p2305


Edited by MacDaddyMatty, Nov 08 2018 - 20:54.


QuicksilverJPR #32 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 20:53

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View PostTankKing187, on Nov 08 2018 - 12:33, said:

atleast have it balanced as plyers' skill it wont happen as many times as it is...

 

 

 

And what evidence do you have or set of statistics that would lead you to believe that?

the_Deadly_Bulb #33 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 20:58

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View PostTankKing187, on Nov 08 2018 - 09:22, said:

i getting many one side battle sometime i win like 15-2 but sometimes lose 15-3 etc.

 

is this so call balance MM for WOT? because it is so imbalanced imo.

 

i dont mind having tomato fights, it is already hard for new players to deal with +2 tier tanks in current 3/5/7 MM.

 

what if our top tier 3 tanks are very good vs average on other side?

 

right now 3/5/7 just make new players have no choice but rush to higher tiers.

 

plz dont ask us to stay in lower tiers WoT selling tier 8 tanks regardless of their skills so it is part of game.

 

also i have better win rates and more fun in top tier battle. there are so many tier 8 tanks due to fact that in 3/5/7 those 7s are tier 8

 

i dont know why i am getting more 3/5/7 as bottom why dont we just fight tier 8 tanks fights?

 

 

 

Can we just not go down this rat hole again?

 

 

 

SBMM?

NO

NO

NO

NO

NO

NO

NO

NO!

 

OP if you need to know why I'm saying NO, go use the search forum function.

Enter SBMM first, then try Skill based MM.

Just forget all about SBMM, its NEVER going to happen (and it shouldn't).

There are hundreds of threads exsisting where this has been explained thoroughly

There is no reason to even discuss this further. :honoring:

 

 

 

PS

Sorry to see your reroll isn't progressing as you had hoped.

Cute avatar though.:trollface:


 


Edited by the_Deadly_Bulb, Nov 08 2018 - 21:02.


cloudwalkr #34 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 21:00

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Just gonna leave a "nope" right here and reiterate what others have said that it wouldn't stop roll overs.

LA_Smack #35 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 21:00

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 (I apologize, 1st post, I don't know how to have the quote properly displayed in the darker quote box)

 

The user that posted this is correct: This is the most contributing factor to blowouts no matter what the tier:

 

"I'm generally against it in a 15 v 15 environment.  The biggest reason we get blowouts is there's no respawn and you can't regenerate health.  Being down 2-3 tanks due to early mistakes can lead to an unstoppable landslide.

Basically, as I see it, we all get the same treatment and it's up to us individually to make the difference.  That is, we all get the same sandbox to play in.  SBMM would not treat everyone equally so I don't see that as fair."

 

Oh gosh, there are so many reasons to support this, here are just a few:

1. A lot of times early in a match, one side will have their light tank killed. This gives quite an advantage to a side that has a competent light player as being able to see enemy locations while not being revealed in turn creates a huge opportunity for mismatches and steamrolls.

2. Most maps have general locations for heavies and mediums and when one flank collapses or when one flank is down tanks it sets up the match for a quick one-sided experience.

3. Lots of times a whole team gets that lemming rush mentality and follows each other to one area of the map. This can quickly create a blow-out either for or against the offending team depending on the set up of the other team and how quickly they react.

 

The reality in this game is that no matter how good you are, being down tanks on the map will make the game more difficult. I think it is one of the most challenging, fun, and rewarding experiences to be down tanks and come back and win a match. I think the attitude is all about how you look at the game. Sometimes your team will do stupid stuff to put your team in a difficult position. Sometimes you make a dumb mistake and put yourself in that situation. Either way, stay positive and don't give up on it. Even if you play well and you still end up losing 15-3 or whatever, use it as an experience to refine your skill set in an unfavorable position. Really I don't think the matchmaking is that big of a deal. Sure if I had my way, I'd like same tier tank battles across the board, however, being bottom tier, again, it gives you an opportunity to win when the chips aren't in your favor. Seize the moment :)


Edited by LA_Smack, Nov 08 2018 - 21:02.


Joe150 #36 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 21:52

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I played maybe 13 or so tier X battles last night and most of the players were 45 to 49% some if not half with a sub 3000 PR even 2000 PR.Im even 49% in my AX to round out the mm.We already have what you want just play tier X.

Hurk #37 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 22:17

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ranked battles is a mode you can pick. go form a team and have fun. 

 

random battles are... erm... random. 



TankKing187 #38 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 22:42

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View Postthe_Deadly_Bulb, on Nov 08 2018 - 20:58, said:

 

Can we just not go down this rat hole again?

 

 

 

SBMM?

NO

NO

NO

NO

NO

NO

NO

NO!

 

OP if you need to know why I'm saying NO, go use the search forum function.

Enter SBMM first, then try Skill based MM.

Just forget all about SBMM, its NEVER going to happen (and it shouldn't).

There are hundreds of threads exsisting where this has been explained thoroughly

There is no reason to even discuss this further. :honoring:

 

 

 

PS

Sorry to see your reroll isn't progressing as you had hoped.

Cute avatar though.:trollface:


 

 

so you telling me i am better than most fresh new players? 

No i dont reroll anything.

 

And for rest of people who give me valuable info to my thoughts. I said from the beginning i might be wrong but i just want to put some thoughts to it so wg and rest of fellow tankers feel the how it feel as late started players who has no advantage in any.

 

And those who personally try to troll please i will do whatever i wanna do with my time and effort. I am getting better as time goes by and there are many players who is nice enough to help me out platoon in game with me even though it is heavy carry so unless if you are going to give me real advise please stay out of it. 



da_Rock002 #39 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 22:56

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View PostTankKing187, on Nov 08 2018 - 12:22, said:

i getting many one side battle sometime i win like 15-2 but sometimes lose 15-3 etc.

 

is this so call balance MM for WOT? because it is so imbalanced imo.

 

i dont mind having tomato fights, it is already hard for new players to deal with +2 tier tanks in current 3/5/7 MM.

 

what if our top tier 3 tanks are very good vs average on other side?

 

right now 3/5/7 just make new players have no choice but rush to higher tiers.

 

plz dont ask us to stay in lower tiers WoT selling tier 8 tanks regardless of their skills so it is part of game.

 

also i have better win rates and more fun in top tier battle. there are so many tier 8 tanks due to fact that in 3/5/7 those 7s are tier 8

 

i dont know why i am getting more 3/5/7 as bottom why dont we just fight tier 8 tanks fights?

 

 

 

 

WG doesn't need to try and code perfect skill balancing.   ~60% of our matches already happen to be almost skill balanced.   When skill balancing is ignored, it distributes throughout the matches in a predictable manner.   If you charted the distribution, the chart would show it badly balanced one way on one side of the chart to just the opposite on the other.   Through the middle of the chart it would be balanced.   People have made those charts from actual experience with WoT and discovered the badly balanced make up about 40% of the battles.


 

So we get some good, some bad.   


 

What WG needs to do is filter out the really bad.   Cut that 40% down to 10% or so.   They needn't attempt to design a new formula for MM.   Look at what they do again and again with just about everything.    Arty?  MM templates like 3-5-7?   Nah, we don't need a new MM concept.    But it'd be fairly simple for them to filter the matchups and swap a few players between the two teams to remove the badly balanced matchups just before spawn. 


 

Too many of the present blowouts are created by blindly ignoring team skill balance.   But the only solution isn't re-basing the matchup logic on anything other than what is there now.  The present one only needs one little step added.    Scan the matchup and if the teams aren't about equal in skill, swap a few players from one to the other.   Quick and easy.  


 

The equipment and tiers need to be considered.   Anyone with half a brain knows there are a number of things that influence outcome.   Ignoring one doesn't make sense.   Especially when it's the most influential of them all. 



Copacetic #40 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 22:58

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Here is some advice. Play your game and stay off the forums with the stupidity.




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