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Can we do match making based on players skill?


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frontflip2cool #41 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 23:01

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View PostTankKing187, on Nov 08 2018 - 18:22, said:

i getting many one side battle sometime i win like 15-2 but sometimes lose 15-3 etc. 

 

is this so call balance MM for WOT? because it is so imbalanced imo.

 

i dont mind having tomato fights, it is already hard for new players to deal with +2 tier tanks in current 3/5/7 MM. 

 

what if our top tier 3 tanks are very good vs average on other side?

 

right now 3/5/7 just make new players have no choice but rush to higher tiers. 

 

plz dont ask us to stay in lower tiers WoT selling tier 8 tanks regardless of their skills so it is part of game.

 

also i have better win rates and more fun in top tier battle. there are so many tier 8 tanks due to fact that in 3/5/7 those 7s are tier 8

 

i dont know why i am getting more 3/5/7 as bottom why dont we just fight tier 8 tanks fights?

 

 

This kind of topic of a skill base mm is old news. It has been discussed so many times and it brings the worse out in people and I honestly hate seeing this kind of topic pop up here in the forums because I could care less if it happens or not.

The constant occurrence of this kind of topic needs to stop because it won't happen ever and we all know that



da_Rock002 #42 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 23:01

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Skill needs to be part of the balances WG considers.

It doesn't have to be the only one.


 

The stupid blowouts do little more than pad the WR for a few players, and screws quite newbies and less skilled.   Both the newbies and less skilled deserve better learning experiences.   The ones getting the padding don't even need it.



Copacetic #43 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 23:09

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Stay in the bottom tiers to learn...they don't deserve anything when at high tiers

Das_Reaper_1 #44 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 23:13

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View Postfrontflip2cool, on Nov 08 2018 - 17:01, said:

This kind of topic of a skill base mm is old news. It has been discussed so many times and it brings the worse out in people and I honestly hate seeing this kind of topic pop up here in the forums because I could care less if it happens or not.

The constant occurrence of this kind of topic needs to stop because it won't happen ever and we all know that

 

What bugs me the most is the need to start a new thread asking a question that could have been answered 10 fold with a simple forum search

This unfortunately won't be the last time this thread or one concerning RNG/ arty/ gold spam etc will be started by some putz too ignorant or lazy to use the search feature of the forum



Crimson_Saber #45 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 23:14

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View PostTankKing187, on Nov 08 2018 - 11:33, said:

atleast have it balanced as plyers' skill it wont happen as many times as it is...

 

 

 

That's just it though. That IS a display of player skill in action. The good players were able to capitalize on the mistakes the other team made creating that snow ball effect. I believe sbmm will actually create more snow ball games not less imo. 

1_Cyber_Sniper #46 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 23:19

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???

 



the_Deadly_Bulb #47 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 23:27

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View PostDas_Reaper_1, on Nov 08 2018 - 14:13, said:

 

What bugs me the most is the need to start a new thread asking a question that could have been answered 10 fold with a simple forum search

This unfortunately won't be the last time this thread or one concerning RNG/ arty/ gold spam etc will be started by some putz too ignorant or lazy to use the search feature of the forum

 

^

What he said



the_Deadly_Bulb #48 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 23:34

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View PostTankKing187, on Nov 08 2018 - 13:42, said:

 

so you telling me i am better than most fresh new players?

No i dont reroll anything.

 

And for rest of people who give me valuable info to my thoughts. I said from the beginning i might be wrong but i just want to put some thoughts to it so wg and rest of fellow tankers feel the how it feel as late started players who has no advantage in any.

 

And those who personally try to troll please i will do whatever i wanna do with my time and effort. I am getting better as time goes by and there are many players who is nice enough to help me out platoon in game with me even though it is heavy carry so unless if you are going to give me real advise please stay out of it.

 

Not at all.

What I'm inferring is that you have no business in anything beyond T-VI, if that

Your game knowledge is lacking (or you wouldn't bother to post this slush)

You bought some Premiums and blitzed your way to the higher tiers where you're neither effective nor contributing to wins.

Now you're here.

Players such as yourself are no stranger to me. http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/530411-hey-wg-lets-talk-about-the-proliferation-of-t-viii-premiums-being-driven-by-the-uninitiated-please/

If you aren't a re-roll then you should know your account has all the hallmarks of a failed one. :honoring:


Edited by the_Deadly_Bulb, Nov 08 2018 - 23:35.


kgomoll #49 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 23:37

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No because 

1. The game is near death.

2. Good players will cry and stop playing pubs

3. Most people don't care about the same thing as good players.

 



Pipinghot #50 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 23:58

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View PostTankKing187, on Nov 08 2018 - 12:22, said:

i getting many one side battle sometime i win like 15-2 but sometimes lose 15-3 etc.

Skill Balancing would not change that, the reason for blowout battles is because this is a one-death-per-battle game. Even if every battle you ever played was exactly 50/50 odds of winning you would still have about the same number of blowout battles, you would not be able to tell the difference.



Pipinghot #51 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 00:00

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View PostTankKing187, on Nov 08 2018 - 12:33, said:

atleast have it balanced as plyers' skill it wont happen as many times as it is...

That's mathematically true, there would be a tiny, tiny reduction in blowouts, but it's not something that you would ever notice while playing the game. If you played WoT for a month with the current MM, and then played for a month using SBMM, it would feel exactly the same to you. Technically there would be a few less blowouts, but nothing you could ever see or feel without doing data analysis, the game would feel exactly the same during your day-to-day playing time.



Boghie #52 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 00:46

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Well, here we go again... 

Something new and different... 

Not a Re-Roll, maybe a Re-Troll... 

Has all the markings, eh.

 

But to answer your question all I got to say is that you bought your way into an NFL lineup as a starting quarterback and tried to toss the oblong thing down the field.  It is not working well.  It is not designed to work well.  And, in the end, it just hurts.

 

It is not the Tomatoes that are chewing on you, it is the Bluenicums+.  Those are the guys with the personal skillset, the good crews, and the well equipped tanks who out-vision you, out-fight you, and out-maneuver you.  As you have figured out, Tiers VIII+ are MEANT for good and/or experienced players.  Those tiers are NOT meant to learn the BASICS.  And, if you are being slammed in Battle Chat or post game by good/experienced players than maybe take their advice.  My guess it is a rude variant of what has been provided in all of your earlier posts. 

 

Regardless, if you are having fun keep on keepin':)

 

 

 



Boghie #53 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 01:34

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Ok, some advice you might take...

 

Since you are determined to learn the game at the pro level (or, what should be the pro level) than do the following with very patient Clan Mates:

 

  • With YOUR Clan on TeamSpeak (or other communication tool) participate in Tier VIII and Tier X Strongholds

 

Have distinct and written goals to accomplish.  Have your team support those goals OVER winning the game.  Act on those goals.  Rinse and Repeat till you get that skill into muscle memory.  The time spent in the tanks will also improve your crew skills.  If you do not plow through credits by shooting premium rounds you can earn the necessary credits to improve tech tree tanks.  This might surprise you, but some tech tree tanks are better than premium tanks.  This will work, but your clan has to accept losses as you and others improve.  Do not fall for the temptation to simply win the game.  Every time you are on the field of battle work to improve - not to win.

 

Good luck, have fun...



NeatoMan #54 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 02:52

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View Postda_Rock002, on Nov 08 2018 - 16:56, said:

 People have made those charts from actual experience with WoT and discovered the badly balanced make up about 40% of the battles.

"Badly" is highly subjective.  Many of those "badly" balanced matches only differ by a few players.  There is no way a few players make it "badly" balanced.

 

This is how "badly" many of those "40% of games" really are:

 

I took 577 games where I recorded player win rates by XVM color scale, and separated the games by win chance to determine just how much stacking is really needed to achieve certain win chances.    It shows the average number of players by color rating for each team for given win chances.    Purple players were few, so I combined blue-purple players to get better averages for both.

 

 

look at the 65%/35% matchup.  That's where a majority of your "badly" balanced games are.  They look like this on average:

 

             team1      team2

purple       1             0

blue          1             1

green        4             2

yellow        4            5

orange      3             4

red            2             3

 

while it is unbalanced it is hardly insurmountable, or guaranteed.  In addition, setups like that do not lead to many more blowouts than balanced games, nor are they over any faster than balanced games.  Without XVM you wouldn't be able to tell a game like that from a balanced game by the way they played out.

 

So when you hear anyone claim "40% of battles are badly balanced" just know that they are using data that I have gathered, and twisting it around and exaggerating the numbers just to push their own unsupported and flawed ideas.  Ask any one of them to describe what goes into those charts and numbers they so love to quote and you'll hear crickets.  They know nothing of what they talk about.

 

Block Quote

The stupid blowouts do little more than pad the WR for a few players, and screws quite newbies and less skilled.   Both the newbies and less skilled deserve better learning experiences.   The ones getting the padding don't even need it.

 They "pad" their win rates by having more good games than the average WoT player.   Blowouts and unbalanced games have nothing to do with it.



SporkBoy #55 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 05:01

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WG should just go ahead and do it. When nothing changes then everyone can see it's a charade and we can stop talking about SBMM forever.

ogHaKo #56 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 08:56

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The 15-2 and 15-3 etc. are result of a so-called "snowball" effect. The more tanks are alive - the easier it is for the majority to overpower the minority, and the bigger the difference, the faster and more intensively it happens. The only way to stop such a blowout is to have 1-3 competent, perhaps either good positioned or heavily armored tanks with high DPM. Skill-based MM could potentially fix it, however, as Ranked MM showed, even when the "skill" was even - 15-2 blowouts still happened a lot.

 

No matter your skill level - the snowball effect is still there and more often than not you can't stop it alone. You need a platoon to do it. Or be the one that causes it, and start rolling and building up the snowball towards the enemies yourself. What I see happen a lot to me is that I go to one flank, build up the snowball and crush it, while on the other side of the map my team gets snowballed and crushed. What ends up happening is two snowballs crashing into each other, thus canceling each other out and boom - you have a "balanced", 7-10 minute battle with the score being around 15-11 or something around that.

 

The skill-based MM might fix the problem at least partially, but my prediction is that it would only make our tanky gameplay more miserable, because it would divide the already small server-population even more. Don't quote me though, I am not a statistician to know this kind of stuff.



da_Rock002 #57 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 10:28

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Skill based MM would greatly reduce the rolfstomps CREATED by WoT MM skewed matchups. 

 

 

The snowball effect gets a jump start when a top players encounter newbies.   Yup, when one top player encounters newbies, it gets a great start.   One top player meeting one newbie (or a couple)   And you very probably have the top player's team's snowball rolling down the hill.    Put 4 or 5 top players on one team against a team heavy with newbies, and it's not hard to figure which team gets the snowball rolling. 


 

BTW

View PostogHaKo, on Nov 09 2018 - 02:56, said:

The 15-2 and 15-3 etc. are result of a so-called "snowball" effect. The more tanks are alive - the easier it is for the majority to overpower the minority, and the bigger the difference, the faster and more intensively it happens. The only way to stop such a blowout is to have 1-3 competent, perhaps either good positioned or heavily armored tanks with high DPM. Skill-based MM could potentially fix it, however, as Ranked MM showed, even when the "skill" was even - 15-2 blowouts still happened a lot.

 

No matter your skill level - the snowball effect is still there and more often than not you can't stop it alone. You need a platoon to do it. Or be the one that causes it, and start rolling and building up the snowball towards the enemies yourself. What I see happen a lot to me is that I go to one flank, build up the snowball and crush it, while on the other side of the map my team gets snowballed and crushed. What ends up happening is two snowballs crashing into each other, thus canceling each other out and boom - you have a "balanced", 7-10 minute battle with the score being around 15-11 or something around that.

 

The skill-based MM might fix the problem at least partially, but my prediction is that it would only make our tanky gameplay more miserable, because it would divide the already small server-population even more. Don't quote me though, I am not a statistician to know this kind of stuff.

 

BTW you're not going to get 15-11 or something around that when BOTH teams start snowballs 'crushing' the enemy push on one side of the map.    You gotta kill more than one on a flank to crush a flank  and your example has BOTH teams doing that.     How does any team finish with 15 live players after getting a flank crushed?

Edited by da_Rock002, Nov 09 2018 - 10:37.


SwedishEOD #58 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 10:46

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da_Rock002 #59 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 12:55

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The problem with so many one sided matches doesn't need an entirely new SBMM to replace what's working now.

Simply swapping a few player-matchups to balance the two teams would be all that's needed.   Starting battles with one (almost) pro team versus the other (almost) newbie team causes naturally occurring blowouts.  They really have no place in any game that's supposed to be fun.   Constantly appearing threads raising hell about that issue prove it's impact on the players.  Or at least on the players who don't benefit from those unfair screw jobs.  


 

The only players for those flusterclucks are the ones that benefit, the ones that start the newbie-snowballs rolling.  An appreciable part of their WR comes from those things.   No wonder they whine so when anyone suggests how heavily unfair skill balances influence battle outcomes.



NeatoMan #60 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 13:05

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View Postda_Rock002, on Nov 09 2018 - 06:55, said:

The problem with so many one sided matches doesn't need an entirely new SBMM to replace what's working now.

Simply swapping a few player-matchups to balance the two teams would be all that's needed.   Starting battles with one (almost) pro team versus the other (almost) newbie team causes naturally occurring blowouts.  They really have no place in any game that's supposed to be fun.   Constantly appearing threads raising hell about that issue prove it's impact on the players.  Or at least on the players who don't benefit from those unfair screw jobs. 

 This guy just makes up crap without knowing any of the fundamentals behind anything he says.  Ask him any question about the background of the data or how it affects games and he ignores it, or totally flubs it.  Pro teams vs newb teams don't happen as often as you think.  You have absolutely no idea what kind of skill matchup leads to what kind of imbalance.  You're just making it all up off the top of your head.

 

Block Quote

The only players for those flusterclucks are the ones that benefit, the ones that start the newbie-snowballs rolling.  An appreciable part of their WR comes from those things.   No wonder they whine so when anyone suggests how heavily unfair skill balances influence battle outcomes.

There is one reason and one reason only why good players get higher win rates... THEY HAVE MORE GOOD GAMES THAN THE AVERAGE WOT PLAYER.   No matter how much daRock wishes to blame his subpar results on the MM, it has absolutely nothing to do with it.   Have more good games and you win more...  simple as that.


Edited by NeatoMan, Nov 09 2018 - 16:01.





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