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if xvm then include into mm


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HogHauler #1 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 19:03

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Last game red team had 4 unicoms and 1 great player according to xvm purple and blue, while our teams best player was above average or green. I understand alot of players feel that xvm should not be alowed during the game and they have some good arguments, however IF xvm is alowed then could we please included xvm into mm calculations so that we could have some more competitive games.

Dockmaster #2 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 19:09

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WG could probably use their own skill metric known as WGR but for some reason they are resisting skill based match making.

 

Seeing as this is the 10 thousandth post on this issue maybe it will finally dawn on WG. (Not) 



Devil__Anse #3 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 19:15

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they want lots of matches not quality ones...it's been that way for as long as I've played the game

HogHauler #4 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 19:29

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Sorry to bring it up again. With  xvm and it seems obvious that you just can't win some games. The best games are the close ones, nobody really enjoys blowout games.

 



xrays_ #5 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 20:02

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View PostHogHauler, on Nov 08 2018 - 13:03, said:

Last game red team had 4 unicoms and 1 great player according to xvm purple and blue, while our teams best player was above average or green.

 

OMG, one match, out of literally tens of thousands you have played... What WILL you do?

 

Please be sure to come back and complain when your team has the predetermined skill advantage.

 

x.



Devildog8 #6 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 20:13

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View Postxrays_, on Nov 08 2018 - 13:02, said:

 

OMG, one match, out of literally tens of thousands you have played... What WILL you do?

 

Please be sure to come back and complain when your team has the predetermined skill advantage.

 

x.

 

Its a lot more than that, and you dont have to be an [edited]about it

_Tsavo_ #7 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 20:19

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No.   If you want a better player on your team, you'll have to make sure you are that better player.

iAmEbola #8 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 20:23

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Did I miss the announcement for National Whine Post Day or something?  



Bad_Oedipus #9 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 20:28

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It might be counter intuitive having too many purple players on a team is bad for purples. Here is scenario why:

 

Team A - all 15 players are from top 3 clans all Win8 3K+

Team B - all between Wn8 of  600-1200

 

Odds are that none of the Team A players will die and Team B will die rather quickly.  Problem for the eunuchiums is that they need maintain high Win8 to stay in their clan.  Sharing damage with 14 other players results in a "horrible" Win8 close to 1K for the match.  Few of those and their clan leaders will boot them cause they are no longer worthy.



dunniteowl #10 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 20:47

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Pay Clans.  Random Public Matches ARE NOT COMPETITIVE, period.

 

You want Skill Based, then Clan Wars, Strongholds and Tournaments are where you need to be (I'd say League play, except -- well -- crickets there at the moment).

 

Pubbies are a mix, like going to the Sand Lot, where anyone at any level with whatever their toys are being used can play.  The teams are basically picked by MM in the same way someone at the sandlot would -- Hmm, you (eyes light up) go here and you (head casts down) go there, etc.

 

The only thing MM looks at is your gear and does its best to order teams evenly based on what it can see.  Quality or Consistency in play is NOT part of that equation.  MM has other people waiting to play and it can't spend all day staring at your analytics to make a determination of a "fair" set of teams according to your Skill.  All it cares is you showed up and you have THIS unit at THAT tier.

 

The rest is up to you and those on your team to do their best.

 

I have NO ISSUES with MM and how it chooses.  Even really skill balanced teams will end in blowouts and roflstomps.  This is not a baseball game or a soccer match, nor is it a chess game where opponents are matched in skill.  Why?  BECAUSE it's a random matching.  Also, that said, even in those matched systems, NO ONE GETS REMOVED from play unless they are injured.  You don't lose your Full backs, Half Backs or Quarterbacks and have to play without one.

 

In this game, you get eliminated and your team is permanently DOWN a tank.  You lose another, then another.  Skill based Match Making is NOT going to change that.  One gun down, two guns down and, no matter how evenly skilled the teams are, it is now unbalanced for the rest of the game.

 

Those of you who cannot see this difference and think that SBMM will make a difference are kidding yourselves.  Those other comparisons folks always like to make are NOT comparisons of similar situations.  Those other comparisons don't lose players that they cannot replace.  This game does.  SBMM can NOT change that and thus, SBMM will NOT make the games more balanced.  Lose a gun and you are at a disadvantage, period.  Lose more and that 'balance' you so dearly crave is GONE.

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF!

 

OvO



Devildog8 #11 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 20:57

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View PostBad_Oedipus, on Nov 08 2018 - 13:28, said:

It might be counter intuitive having too many purple players on a team is bad for purples. Here is scenario why:

 

Team A - all 15 players are from top 3 clans all Win8 3K+

Team B - all between Wn8 of  600-1200

 

Odds are that none of the Team A players will die and Team B will die rather quickly.  Problem for the eunuchiums is that they need maintain high Win8 to stay in their clan.  Sharing damage with 14 other players results in a "horrible" Win8 close to 1K for the match.  Few of those and their clan leaders will boot them cause they are no longer worthy.

 

What?

Hellsfog #12 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 21:02

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View PostHogHauler, on Nov 08 2018 - 13:03, said:

Last game red team had 4 unicoms and 1 great player according to xvm purple and blue, while our teams best player was above average or green. I understand alot of players feel that xvm should not be alowed during the game and they have some good arguments, however IF xvm is alowed then could we please included xvm into mm calculations so that we could have some more competitive games.

 

At this moment, there are 9,000 players on all NA servers. Do you really need a special MM rule to protect you from 90 of them?

SnakePliskan #13 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 22:44

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View PostHogHauler, on Nov 08 2018 - 19:29, said:

Sorry to bring it up again. With  xvm and it seems obvious that you just can't win some games. The best games are the close ones, nobody really enjoys blowout games.

 

 

Just won one of those "obvious" matches last night. SBMM is not the solution to anything and its seriously dead horse.

SnakePliskan #14 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 22:48

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View Postdunniteowl, on Nov 08 2018 - 20:47, said:

Pay Clans.  Random Public Matches ARE NOT COMPETITIVE, period.

 

You want Skill Based, then Clan Wars, Strongholds and Tournaments are where you need to be (I'd say League play, except -- well -- crickets there at the moment).

 

Pubbies are a mix, like going to the Sand Lot, where anyone at any level with whatever their toys are being used can play.  The teams are basically picked by MM in the same way someone at the sandlot would -- Hmm, you (eyes light up) go here and you (head casts down) go there, etc.

 

The only thing MM looks at is your gear and does its best to order teams evenly based on what it can see.  Quality or Consistency in play is NOT part of that equation.  MM has other people waiting to play and it can't spend all day staring at your analytics to make a determination of a "fair" set of teams according to your Skill.  All it cares is you showed up and you have THIS unit at THAT tier.

 

The rest is up to you and those on your team to do their best.

 

I have NO ISSUES with MM and how it chooses.  Even really skill balanced teams will end in blowouts and roflstomps.  This is not a baseball game or a soccer match, nor is it a chess game where opponents are matched in skill.  Why?  BECAUSE it's a random matching.  Also, that said, even in those matched systems, NO ONE GETS REMOVED from play unless they are injured.  You don't lose your Full backs, Half Backs or Quarterbacks and have to play without one.

 

In this game, you get eliminated and your team is permanently DOWN a tank.  You lose another, then another.  Skill based Match Making is NOT going to change that.  One gun down, two guns down and, no matter how evenly skilled the teams are, it is now unbalanced for the rest of the game.

 

Those of you who cannot see this difference and think that SBMM will make a difference are kidding yourselves.  Those other comparisons folks always like to make are NOT comparisons of similar situations.  Those other comparisons don't lose players that they cannot replace.  This game does.  SBMM can NOT change that and thus, SBMM will NOT make the games more balanced.  Lose a gun and you are at a disadvantage, period.  Lose more and that 'balance' you so dearly crave is GONE.

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF!

 

OvO

 

There blowouts at the top level of matches in this game outside of pubs. SBMM has nothing to do with it and will solve none of the problems that are always listed. Single player death, early death resulting in a imbalance of HP an DPM causes blowouts.

Pipinghot #15 Posted Nov 08 2018 - 23:51

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View PostHogHauler, on Nov 08 2018 - 13:03, said:

Last game red team had 4 unicoms and 1 great player according to xvm purple and blue, while our teams best player was above average or green. I understand alot of players feel that xvm should not be alowed during the game and they have some good arguments, however IF xvm is alowed then could we please included xvm into mm calculations so that we could have some more competitive games.

XVM has absolutely nothing to do with the MM, stop trying to mix the two together.

 

The MM is random with regards to skill, always has been, that's the game you came here to play. If you want SBMM then go play League of Legends or any of the dozens of kiddie games that coddle you by making it easier.



EmperorJuliusCaesar #16 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 03:04

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View PostHellsfog, on Nov 09 2018 - 03:02, said:

 

At this moment, there are 9,000 players on all NA servers. Do you really need a special MM rule to protect you from 90 of them?

 

Any one the reads the forum, KNOWS that's it's a reason why many have quit the game.  Any leader of a large clan will be able to tell you they've lost many because of MM.  When 40% of your games are over before they start.....that's a lot of wasted time, and many people see it for what it is, TRASH MM.

Hellsfog #17 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 18:50

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View PostEmperorJuliusCaesar, on Nov 08 2018 - 21:04, said:

 

Any one the reads the forum, KNOWS that's it's a reason why many have quit the game.  Any leader of a large clan will be able to tell you they've lost many because of MM.  When 40% of your games are over before they start.....that's a lot of wasted time, and many people see it for what it is, TRASH MM.

 

 Later you will use the exact same allegation when complaining about premium, ammo, 3/5/7, vision mechanics, map design, arty and whatever else you're complaining about at the moment. 

black_colt #18 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 19:01

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View PostHogHauler, on Nov 08 2018 - 10:03, said:

Last game red team had 4 unicoms and 1 great player according to xvm purple and blue, while our teams best player was above average or green. I understand alot of players feel that xvm should not be alowed during the game and they have some good arguments, however IF xvm is alowed then could we please included xvm into mm calculations so that we could have some more competitive games.

 

XVM will not guarantee more balanced games - the player pool does that.  Introducing more checks into the Matchmaker will not only increase the time in queue but increasing the piXXing and moaning [PAM] about the checks introduced.

 

So why not spend your time helping players learn the game - e.g. a YouTube or Twitch - so that the skill level of the player pool rises?

 

Why not spend your time helping Wargaming improve their in-game Bootcamp by giving concise, cogent, and relevant criticism?

 

A rising tide lifts all boats ...



scharnhorst310 #19 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 19:25

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View PostHogHauler, on Nov 08 2018 - 10:29, said:

Sorry to bring it up again. With  xvm and it seems obvious that you just can't win some games. The best games are the close ones, nobody really enjoys blowout games.

 

 

Skill difference does not necessarily mean blowout wins or losses. Go watch a cw our tourney match against two dead evenly skilled teams... blowouts happen. You have RNG in this game on top of the human element; things can snowball from bad to worse very quickly for either side. 

 

MM right now sees both you and I as equal (as it should); it leaves it to each of us to determine how much we want to contribute. After 24k battles you and I will have seen damn near the same number of good teams and bad teams, it all evens out over the long run. 


Edited by scharnhorst310, Nov 09 2018 - 19:32.


FineousOrlon #20 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 19:25

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View PostHogHauler, on Nov 08 2018 - 19:29, said:

 The best games are the close ones, nobody really enjoys blowout games.

 

 

Not true, 3 or 4 players enjoy each blowout, almost certainly, and only those 3 or 4, most of the time.

 

View Postdunniteowl, on Nov 08 2018 - 20:47, said:

 

 

Pubbies are a mix, like going to the Sand Lot, where anyone at any level with whatever their toys are being used can play.  The teams are basically picked by MM in the same way someone at the sandlot would -- Hmm, you (eyes light up) go here and you (head casts down) go there, etc.

 

Not even remotely true.  At the sandlot, the best players are picked first, and then the picks go mostly in descending order of [perceived] skill.  If MM were to do this, it would be quite different from now.  Sandlot picking is more like a draft than the random MM that WoT uses. People who want SBMM would prefer this.

 

[Sorry for the format problem...]

View PostSnakePliskan, on Nov 08 2018 - 22:44, said:

 

Just won one of those "obvious" matches last night. SBMM is not the solution to anything and its seriously dead horse.

 

XVM delivers the skill levels of the players and a %win-chance prediction.  The skill level is fairly accurate, the % chance is just that, a % chance.  65% chance to win IS ~35% chance to lose [chance for draw unknown].  Obvious wins or losses still get played, with fairly, but not totally predictable results for a single instance..  Also, XVM seems to have a problem recently, it does not deal with the tier differences well, in my estimation, in that good players in top tier tanks seem to ~equal with good players inlower tier tanks, when, this is not necessarily a good evaluation.

 

View PostSnakePliskan, on Nov 08 2018 - 22:48, said:

 

There blowouts at the top level of matches in this game outside of pubs. SBMM has nothing to do with it and will solve none of the problems that are always listed. Single player death, early death resulting in a imbalance of HP an DPM causes blowouts.

 

Incorrect, lack of a SBMM DOES lead to blowouts, just not all of them, single death elimination is a big deal as well.  SBMM absolutely will help some of the problems mentioned.  A large factor frequently ignored in this sort of statement from SP is that skilled players are usually good at causing early deaths, or avoiding early deaths, early damage and deaths do not frequently just crop up from the ground in some mysterious, unknown manner.

Yes, blowouts occur in ranked battles and clan wars, etc., when one team is able to generate a local overmatch, while both teams know how to do that. 

 

Now, imagine if only ONE team had players, or had noticeably more players, that knew how to do just that.  Then add in the ability to do early damage and avoid early deaths.

 

Yeah.

 

Anything that can happen in a skill-more-or-less balanced situation can happen faster in a situation with a pronounced lack of skill balance.

View PostEmperorJuliusCaesar, on Nov 09 2018 - 03:04, said:

 

Any one the reads the forum, KNOWS that's it's a reason why many have quit the game.  Any leader of a large clan will be able to tell you they've lost many because of MM.  When 40% of your games are over before they start.....that's a lot of wasted time, and many people see it for what it is, TRASH MM.

 

MM is trash, and it favors good players, is relatively neutral for average players, and works against below-average players, in the long run.  This is because, while the enemy team is always random, your own team is only 14/15ths random.....

 

Player retention is a real business concern, or should be, of WG, and may point WG towards SBMM....., who knows what this MM rework will bring.

 

I do not have this sort of data on player retention, nor access to it.  I do consider the forums accurate when case studies are concerned, i.e., when a person comes in to post about why they are leaving.  I would be interested what large clan leaders have to say, because, if their clan is successful, their clan is full of [good] players who benefit from the random MM, and thus, I would predict that few of their players would leave because of the MM.  I think you would need a spread in ability of clan leaders, and a spread of clan successful-ness, to get  a better picture of how MM influences player retention from clan leaders.






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