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Why do bad players refuse to listen to the advice of good players?


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Thunder_Storm_713 #41 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 00:15

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View PostNiteDog, on Nov 09 2018 - 08:13, said:

12 battles? Really? Maybe with your superior skill at only 12 games, you can add a thread that helps players improve instead of adding to the continued weight of Redundant, Whiny Threads. 

 

​Borderline genius. That's what you are.

Staz211 #42 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 00:25

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View PostscHnuuudle_bop, on Nov 08 2018 - 17:33, said:

Who  says the person giving advice is a good player?

 

75% of players have no way of knowing whether the armchair general is just a crank or some self appointed pro.

 

Lots of players do not have chat turned on.

 

Lots, like myself, totally ignore 110% of babble from the peanut gallery, as there is zero credibility in the XVM stat system.  The supposed pro, is mathematically likely to be just an average joe with a re-roll account. An opinion is not really advice.

 

Watching this game, there is NO place where some class is supposed to go and shoot from. But always lots of "advice", that some players is in the imaginary wrong place. 

 

Most of the angry advice seems not to came from any particular type or status of players. Almost all the advice does seem to came from destroyed players who blame through "tactical conversations ", why if the team had of just listened, he would not be dead.

 

What is needed in the vanilla client is some sort of "Captain" system, where the highest ranked 3 on a team have some sort of recognition. Not all, or even many would pay attention, but at least players would know if advice is worth paying attention to.

 

 

 

Please support this claim. The vast, vast, vast majority of good and great players I've come across have tens of thousands of battles on accounts that are 5+ years old. Guy with 3000 games and 58%WR? Yea, reroll, but those are fairly few and far between in my experience.

 

What makes you think good players are "mathematically likely" to be rerolls?



BabA_YA6A #43 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 00:56

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View PostNiteDog, on Nov 09 2018 - 04:13, said:

12 battles? Really? Maybe with your superior skill at only 12 games, you can add a thread that helps players improve instead of adding to the continued weight of Redundant, Whiny Threads. 

 

+1......LM4O

ElPuffMo #44 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 01:00

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I don't know if bad players have the monopoly on ignoring good advice, but the inability to discern between the good advice & bad, and between the good & bad players offering it, is what keeps bad players from improving. The baddies cannot recognize good advice essentially by definition, thus they are incapable of acting appropriately to it.  Bad players will quickly become average or better players once they start knowing what good advice looks like and who really doles it out.

 

However, please keep trying! I give frequent advice --- directions, suggestions, strategies, you name it --- almost every game I am in. I hope it is deemed "good" advice. Some people might have xvm or recognize great clan tags, but other players might just be taking my advice for the "Oh, what the hey? Why not?" factor.  Regardless the reason for following it, the advice from good players tends to work. And people remember that.

 

I've said many times that teamwork itself is a skill, and part of that skill is being able to offer up sound advice and convince the 14 strangers to actually follow it for the betterment of the team.



HEATN00B #45 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 01:08

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Bad player stay bad because for the most part they are ignorant and refuse to learn anything beyond what they learned up to tier 3.

Omega_Weapon #46 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 01:16

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View Postgmotoman, on Nov 08 2018 - 15:21, said:

because about 65% of the good players in this game lack the social skills to give advice without being giant tools.    I have played this game hard for the last year.  And I can count on 2 hands the number of people that have given solid OBJECTIVE advice w/o being rude.

 

That's hard to do. Especially when polite offers of advice are typically met with not so polite suggestions to stick said advice up our posterior. Once that happens enough times, advice starts being expressed as angry complaining (fully expecting the rude response and active ignoring of good advice). Those players who do not immediately take offence at the gruff tone though and do actually try to listen to the advice instantly earn my respect even if they are statistical tomatoes. People with a little humility have a great potential to learn.

SynfulSun #47 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 01:22

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Bad players overestimate their skill, while actual good players often underestimate themselves.

 

In other words, bad players feel like they no longer need to learn anything else about the game while good players are always hungry for knowledge and lust for a chance at improving their skills.



ElPuffMo #48 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 01:25

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View PostSynfulSun, on Nov 08 2018 - 19:22, said:

Bad players overestimate their skill, while actual good players often underestimate themselves.

 

In other words, bad players feel like they no longer need to learn anything else about the game while good players are always hungry for knowledge and lust for a chance at improving their skills.

 

Best thing I read all month. You peered inside my soul!

Omega_Weapon #49 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 01:37

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View PostscHnuuudle_bop, on Nov 08 2018 - 17:33, said:

Who  says the person giving advice is a good player?

 

75% of players have no way of knowing whether the armchair general is just a crank or some self appointed pro.

 

Lots of players do not have chat turned on.

 

Lots, like myself, totally ignore 110% of babble from the peanut gallery, as there is zero credibility in the XVM stat system.  The supposed pro, is mathematically likely to be just an average joe with a re-roll account. An opinion is not really advice.

 

Watching this game, there is NO place where some class is supposed to go and shoot from. But always lots of "advice", that some players is in the imaginary wrong place. 

 

Most of the angry advice seems not to came from any particular type or status of players. Almost all the advice does seem to came from destroyed players who blame through "tactical conversations ", why if the team had of just listened, he would not be dead.

 

What is needed in the vanilla client is some sort of "Captain" system, where the highest ranked 3 on a team have some sort of recognition. Not all, or even many would pay attention, but at least players would know if advice is worth paying attention to.

 

But even a reroll can know what they are talking about. If somebody is getting good stats and they have 1000 battles or more, its a good bet they have the required knowledge base. Sometimes a player with a really high battle count but average stats will have advice that is just as good, but it doesn't happen as often. I really like your idea of a Captain system. That is kind of how I use XVM currently, but its not in the vanilla client yet. As for there not being places a class of tank has to go on the map, there is no absolute rule, but in many cases it is highly recommended they go to a certain spot to be most effective. Unless you really know what you are doing, its rarely advisable to ignore the spot your team expects you to go (based on class and role).


Edited by Omega_Weapon, Nov 09 2018 - 02:22.


WhineMaker #50 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 01:44

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View PostJoe150, on Nov 08 2018 - 13:52, said:

It's amazing its sailed right over some of your heads some people use alt accounts to comment on the forums and such to avoid strikes and bans geez.:facepalm:

View PostJoe150, on Nov 08 2018 - 13:59, said:

Who cares the point he was making is valid and WG's isn't going to ban anyone with a reroll account because it triggers the baddies either it's a non issue.

 

If OP's point is so valid, is there a reason for OP not to post from their main account, other than avoiding the forum rules as a perma banned rager... :sceptic:

 

View PostBurning_Haggis, on Nov 08 2018 - 14:48, said:

 

I would bet a banned RAGER.

 

FTFY!!!

 

View PostHEATN00B, on Nov 08 2018 - 16:08, said:

Bad player stay bad because for the most part they are ignorant and refuse to learn anything beyond what they learned up to tier 3.

 

Can you show me where I am required to become a good player. WoT is for players of all skill levels and, in my instance, for fun and entertainment only. I retired from working for a reason... :facepalm:



Captain_Rownd #51 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 01:49

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View PostAngryFleshlight4482, on Nov 08 2018 - 10:07, said:

 It's always the tomatoes screaming at their teams for being bad and not pushing with them. When will these players realize that when they are told that their play was wrong and it's entirely their fault that they died early in the match, that the better players on their team are right?

 

Nobody knows who is a "good" or "bad" player. 

 



gmotoman #52 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 02:49

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View Postcloudwalkr, on Nov 08 2018 - 22:16, said:

 

Ive seen you post similar things to this before and I just disagree.  

 

Threads started by people asking for genuine help, NOT posting in your style of passive aggressiveness and somewhat insulting nature, they get help.  The ONLY PEOPLE I ever truly see being stat shamed are the ones talking out their butts about things they don't know and refusing to listen to anyone who does.  

 

With respect, you come off as someone with an immediate attitude problem and that makes those who do work with people and try to help...not want to deal with you.  Again, if you need help...start a genuine thread politely asking for advice and you will get it.  I have also been running public training sessions for those interested.  If you have specific tanks, or issues you would like to work on...I'd be happy to jump in a room with you and see if I can help.

 

Are people out there that just want to insult based on stats...yes, but they generally leave those alone who are truly seeking help.

 

 

Maybe some of the people I have PM'd for help wikll come and say I am not as big of a jerk as I seem.

 

I would also like to add a few ways.
1.  I will own what I wrote you're correct it comes off with an attitude.  But that is only because I have experienced what i wrote about.  I comment based off my experiences.  Sometimes my experiences are negative.

2. (I KNOW THIS DOESN'T COUNT FOR MUCH)But it does count for something.  Ten people bumped my rep.  So either they've experienced, or seen what I have.

 

3. Lastly with this thread I am not trying to be passive aggressive.  As my experience with the game has grown so has my behavior.   I used to be somewhat trollish/dickish in my approach but that is changing.  I can only ask that you judge me on all my posts not just the ones you don't like.

4. I am going to ask of you one last thing.  I know you don't like how I post, but I am seriously asking you Cloudwalkr how is the following linked post with a question passive aggressive?  This is more to point out recent asking for help, and how I asked when I first came into the forum.
http://forum.worldof...__fromsearch__1



NeatoMan #53 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 03:13

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because they aren't competent enough to distinguish good advice from bad advice

Jryder #54 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 03:51

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View PostiAmEbola, on Nov 08 2018 - 13:16, said:

"Why do bad players refuse to listen to the advice of good players?"

 

Ego.  

 

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

THAT is a baseless and ridiculous assertion. 

 

I have played this game from Beta and I cannot remember a single instance of someone "giving advice" during a battle. Ever.

 

Barking orders and lording over other players is not advice.

Insults are not advice.

Screaming profanities at players is not advice.

There is little if anything left in chat beyond those...

 

In addition, 99% of players who do feel compelled to impart their 'wisdom' unto others in the game don't know their elbow from a hot rock. They don't know why another player did what he did or how their situation might have looked to them. All that they know is that THAT GUY didn't do what I WANTED. That in no way imparts any authority or secret knowledge whatsoever.

 

If there is any inflated egoism in game, it lies with the Keepers of the Supreme Knowledge who feel obligated to vomit their 'wisdom' all over everyone else during battle.

 

If someone actually wants to help a new player, contact them nicely outside of battle and make the offer-and if it isn't accepted, gracefully accept the response and move on.

 

("Ego"..gimme a friggin' break...)



scHnuuudle_bop #55 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 05:41

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View PostStaz211, on Nov 09 2018 - 00:25, said:

 

Please support this claim. The vast, vast, vast majority of good and great players I've come across have tens of thousands of battles on accounts that are 5+ years old. Guy with 3000 games and 58%WR? Yea, reroll, but those are fairly few and far between in my experience.

 

What makes you think good players are "mathematically likely" to be rerolls?

 

Anecdotally, from the number of evident re-rolls both in-game and here. I see all the time players, with huge average damages, 1.5 kills a game and WN8 of 3000, all with 3000 games.

A re-roll is trying to hide something, and by doing so, his and almost all others credibility suffers. It is this desire to , not be a better player, but to have better stats. These are not the same thing.

All the time here, players are looking for statistical improvements, or help, my stats are suffering. 

 

Besides, how many times does a skilled player even bother. Most of the armchair generals are just the opposite, which again makes any one else's credibility suffer more.

I see more skilled players being berated than anyone else. 

 

Then there is the game system itself.

Someone clicks on their mini map, are they going there, are they aiming there?  Do they want entire team to go there? Are they just trolling. Same with the help button



scHnuuudle_bop #56 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 05:47

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View PostOmega_Weapon, on Nov 09 2018 - 01:37, said:

 

But even a reroll can know what they are talking about. If somebody is getting good stats and they have 1000 battles or more, its a good bet they have the required knowledge base. Sometimes a player with a really high battle count but average stats will have advice that is just as good, but it doesn't happen as often. I really like your idea of a Captain system. That is kind of how I use XVM currently, but its not in the vanilla client yet. As for there not being places a class of tank has to go on the map, there is no absolute rule, but in many cases it is highly recommended they go to a certain spot to be most effective. Unless you really know what you are doing, its rarely advisable to ignore the spot your team expects you to go (based on class and role).

 

Yes, they can have good advice, just lake the player with 3000 games may have some as well.

Skilled players have bad games, bad players make skilled decisions. 

Someone wanting to be paid attention too, over some numbers, is going to be disappointed. 

I keep my game screen clean by not displaying players lists, but a simple TAB and I can see if the insistent players clicking the map is worth a look.

I kind of use that as a captain system.



dunniteowl #57 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 06:21

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View PostAngryFleshlight4482, on Nov 08 2018 - 14:07, said:

 It's always the tomatoes screaming at their teams for being bad and not pushing with them. When will these players realize that when they are told that their play was wrong and it's entirely their fault that they died early in the match, that the better players on their team are right? This community is so toxic because bad players don't want to listen to good players and blaming the good players while the good players get mad at the bad plays bad players make... Why does it seem that only a small portion of the community are rational and sensible and the other part believes that the game is out to get them or the good players who don't die immediately, don't die because they are pansies or something... it's somewhat astonishing  logic of the average tomato on this game.

 

 

I'm going to offer, based on my observations of my Fellow Humans and also the smaller subset of my Fellow Gamers, that this is a basic truth of numbers.

 

 

Even so, I do my best to reach out and provide help and assistance to those few that actually ask, "What can I do?"  Hell, I just as often toss a line to those that are busy blaming everything other than their lack of knowledge of the game mechanics, tactics or even the basics of managing the information that comes to them from the screen.


I figure if I can get ONE more person to 'wake up' and realize that owning their play, taking the time to improve their own knowledge and working at paying more attention on purpose as major victory.  It is FAR more satisfying to me to see folks do that than it is to win my best played match.

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF!

 

OvO



cloudwalkr #58 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 07:25

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View Postgmotoman, on Nov 09 2018 - 02:49, said:

 

 

Maybe some of the people I have PM'd for help wikll come and say I am not as big of a jerk as I seem.

 

I would also like to add a few ways.
1.  I will own what I wrote you're correct it comes off with an attitude.  But that is only because I have experienced what i wrote about.  I comment based off my experiences.  Sometimes my experiences are negative.

2. (I KNOW THIS DOESN'T COUNT FOR MUCH)But it does count for something.  Ten people bumped my rep.  So either they've experienced, or seen what I have.

 

3. Lastly with this thread I am not trying to be passive aggressive.  As my experience with the game has grown so has my behavior.   I used to be somewhat trollish/dickish in my approach but that is changing.  I can only ask that you judge me on all my posts not just the ones you don't like.

4. I am going to ask of you one last thing.  I know you don't like how I post, but I am seriously asking you Cloudwalkr how is the following linked post with a question passive aggressive?  This is more to point out recent asking for help, and how I asked when I first came into the forum.
http://forum.worldof...__fromsearch__1

 

I could easily just be catching the rough posts.  I will 100% not take you on the few I've past.  

 

The link you posted wasn't snide, passive aggressive...or wrong in any way from what I could tell.  I would point out that at least the first several posts ( I stopped reading them after) were all positive and constructive posts.  So why the negative ones talking about how people get beat up when asking for help?  That was an awesome thread where people seemed to genuinely try and help you.  

 

Reading a few of those responses to your help thread, They were clearly troll responses...but you'll get a few in every thread on the internet I would imagine.  Don't let a few out weigh the many that were trying to give sound advice there.

 

If you are still looking for some help with scouts, I personally love playing scout tanks and wouldn't mind jumping in a training room with you and seeing if we can't work on some things.



Thunder_Storm_713 #59 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 10:46

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View PostWhineMaker, on Nov 09 2018 - 12:44, said:

Can you show me where I am required to become a good player. WoT is for players of all skill levels and, in my instance, for fun and entertainment only. I retired from working for a reason... :facepalm:

 

 ​That explains a lot about you.

SwedishEOD #60 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 10:54

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Because new/inexperienced players have no clue as to who is good or not in the battle. And after affirming their mediocre skills for 20k battles they are reluctant to admit they are "bad" and thus refuses to accept advice from others. Been doing it for 20k battles can't be wrong.......been working so well all this time too.

 

Pride, stubborness, chip on their shoulder....dad just beat mom up have to vent somewhere...anything more or less and lets not forget the "1 Pl4Y PhOr FüN!!" people too.

 

But mainly I think it's just because there is no way for anyone to tell who is good or not. (not counting xvm since it's not part of vanilla WoT)






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