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Do you like the new premium tank philosophy?

Good Or Better Than Tier

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Poll: Powerful Premiums (78 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 100 battle in order to participate this poll.

Are limited sales premium tanks with better than tech tree stats good for the game?

  1. Yes! I pay good money for my premiums so they better not suck or be power creeped in a year! (37 votes [47.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.44%

  2. No! Why should someone with a job and expendable income have a better life than me? UNFAIR! (19 votes [24.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.36%

  3. Bacon. Because you know the best premium tank that could ever be sold would be the Bacon Tank! (22 votes [28.21%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.21%

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TheManFromKekistan #41 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 00:52

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View PostFlarvin, on Nov 17 2018 - 18:45, said:

 

Yes, it’s great allowing players to pay for an advantage. 

 

Screw balance as long as WG makes more money. lol

 

Blame the players. Wg wouldn't sell powerful premiums if the playerbase had a fit of emorals and refused to buy them.

 

Besides if you have time to play this game you have time to work or do chores for dosh so there really isn't an excuse to not buy any premium tanks past emorals.

 

Basically all the whinges I see boil down to how unfair it is to free2players that someone with some extra money gets a slightly nicer tank(and in the end even the defender is only slightly better than tech tree).

 

Welp guess what. That's life. Those with means get better stuff. Deal with it. :coin:



Flarvin #42 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 00:59

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View PostTheManFromKekistan, on Nov 17 2018 - 18:52, said:

 

Blame the players. Wg wouldn't sell powerful premiums if the playerbase had a fit of emorals and refused to buy them.

 

Besides if you have time to play this game you have time to work or do chores for dosh so there really isn't an excuse to not buy any premium tanks past emorals.

 

Basically all the whinges I see boil down to how unfair it is to free2players that someone with some extra money gets a slightly nicer tank(and in the end even the defender is only slightly better than tech tree).

 

Welp guess what. That's life. Those with means get better stuff. Deal with it. :coin:

 

Not blaming anyone. 

 

WG can sell whatever they want. 

 

But actions have consequences. And balance has suffered since selling OP prems. 

 

Not my problem. I don’t spend money on WoT anymore, and if I feel I has gotten bad enough, I will play something different. Not a big deal, has happened many times in my gaming history. 



TheManFromKekistan #43 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 01:14

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View PostFlarvin, on Nov 17 2018 - 18:59, said:

But actions have consequences. And balance has suffered since selling OP prems. 

 

How? Organized play might be filled with premium meta due to powerful premiums but if there were no powerful premiums then whatever tech tree tank was considered meta would rule the rosters. In pub play those supposedly op premiums are sitting bottom tier 80% of the time getting hammered by death star td and arty and superheavy derps and on and on. So how is doing well in the 20% of matches where it's top tier ruining balance? The taters in the defender platoon evaporate just as fast as if they were in any other tank and the gud platoons will harvest tears no matter what tanks they are in. So tell me exactly how balance has effectively(not technically) suffered due to some premiums having somewhat better than tier stats?

 

 



Flarvin #44 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 01:17

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View PostTheManFromKekistan, on Nov 17 2018 - 19:14, said:

But actions have consequences. And balance has suffered since selling OP prems. 

 

How? Organized play might be filled with premium meta due to powerful premiums but if there were no powerful premiums then whatever tech tree tank was considered meta would rule the rosters. In pub play those supposedly op premiums are sitting bottom tier 80% of the time getting hammered by death star td and arty and superheavy derps and on and on. So how is doing well in the 20% of matches where it's top tier ruining balance? The taters in the defender platoon evaporate just as fast as if they were in any other tank and the gud platoons will harvest tears no matter what tanks they are in. So tell me exactly how balance has effectively(not technically) suffered due to some premiums having somewhat better than tier stats?

 

 

 

Sorry, but I see pay to win has worse than grind to win.

 

But that is my opinion, if you don’t understand or like it, tough. 



TheManFromKekistan #45 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 01:22

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View PostFlarvin, on Nov 17 2018 - 19:17, said:

 

Sorry, but I see pay to win has worse than grind to win.

 

But that is my opinion, if you don’t understand or like it, tough. 

 

Doesn't matter what your or my opinion is. Wg will keep selling powerful premiums because they sell well and there isn't a single thing we can do about it.

 

As for me I'll buy them as long as they are as good or better than tech tree and I have no interest in gimped tanks for real life dosh.

 

But this is my opinion, if you don't understand or like it, tough.

 

:playing:



the_Deadly_Bulb #46 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 01:23

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View Postdominator_98, on Nov 15 2018 - 18:48, said:

 

No. For a premium tank to be truly pay to win, it would have to be better than its tech tree counterpart, thus making it easier to win by playing the better($$$) tank.

 

The Firefly VC is pay-to-win even though it's not that good because it's straight-up better than the version free players get. I could make an entire list of premiums better than tech tree versions, but that's not the point. The point is that paying money earns you a superior vehicle, which helps you win more.

 

I would even argue that premium accounts and free xp conversion are pay to win mechanics.

 - Prem accounts let players shoot more gold. More gold = more damage = more wins.

 - Free xp conversion lets players skip stock grinds and terrible tanks, therefore they are on average playing better tanks than someone who doesn't convert free xp.

 

 

Almost all free to play games have elements of P2W. It's just a question of how much P2W you're okay with.

 

 

 


 

Not all Premium vehicles are created equally. Some are better than their tree counterparts, some are equal, others are not.

Many times OP is in the opinion of the person commenting.

Some times a vehicle being OP or not has as much to do with the player using it as the vehicle.

There are OP tree vehicles too.

They are OP for these same reasons.

 

 

Premium Accounts in no way influence the outcome of a match.

Once the match is over those with Premium Accounts merely get better earnings, in both XP and credits, win or lose.

It doesn't provide better MM, better tier placement, more accuracy, more damage or better pen and certainly not better WR.

All it does is increase the returns in either a win or a loss. This makes the grind less tedious.

The 2 key is not a guarantee of greater damage or wins. Prammo pens better (sometimes) that is pretty much all the magic of Prammo.


 

Free XP conversion is not pay to win either.

The freemium player that knows what they're doing isn't going to let XP build on a tree vehicle once its Elited. They will ensure the Accelerate Crew is active.

Yes Free XP allows you to skip horribad tanks and stock grinds, but the freemium player earns Free XP too, albeit at a slower pace and even OP tanks don't guarantee better WR.

RNG is there to mess things up, as are your team mates, the OPFOR and your own errors .


 

With these things in mind I don't feel this equates to Premium Time or gold use being Pay to Win, its more like Pay to Avoid Tedium.

 

Edit:

Didn't vote

Poll seemed biased, narrow, and agenda driven.


 


 


Edited by the_Deadly_Bulb, Nov 18 2018 - 01:36.


Flarvin #47 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 01:42

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View PostTheManFromKekistan, on Nov 17 2018 - 19:22, said:

Doesn't matter what your or my opinion is. 

 

My opinion matters to the only one who is important to my playing decisions, me. 

 

I stated my opinion, which for some reason you feel the need to challenge. But not that surprising, givien the bias poll. 

 

Good luck needing to use money to counter your poor skills. lol



TheManFromKekistan #48 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 01:56

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View PostFlarvin, on Nov 17 2018 - 19:42, said:

 

My opinion matters to the only one who is important to my playing decisions, me. 

 

I stated my opinion, which for some reason you feel the need to challenge. But not that surprising, givien the bias poll. 

 

Good luck needing to use money to counter your poor skills. lol

 

Well that's exactly what I said. Your(or my) opinion is your own and it has no effect on anything or anyone other than you.

 

I responded to your opinion because that kinda the point of a dicussion thread? You state your opinion I'll state mine then the dear readers get to chose for themselves what or who to believe or care about?

 

Personal attacks based on perceived skill shaming? Isn't that against the forum rules? kek

 

:popcorn:



Flarvin #49 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 02:04

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View PostTheManFromKekistan, on Nov 17 2018 - 19:56, said:

 

Well that's exactly what I said. Your(or my) opinion is your own and it has no effect on anything or anyone other than you.

 

I responded to your opinion because that kinda the point of a dicussion thread? You state your opinion I'll state mine then the dear readers get to chose for themselves what or who to believe or care about?

 

Personal attacks based on perceived skill shaming? Isn't that against the forum rules? kek

 

:popcorn:

 

More like a personal attack based on your argument. Don’t know your stats, or care. 

 

But I do know you prefer players being able to pay for advantages, which requires zero skill. So it’s not a leap to see you condone players using money to increase their in game performance, without actually getting better. 

 

But take it how ever you wish. 



TheManFromKekistan #50 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 02:13

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View PostFlarvin, on Nov 17 2018 - 20:04, said:

 

More like a personal attack based on your argument. Don’t know your stats, or care. 

 

But I do know you prefer players being able to pay for advantages, which requires zero skill. So it’s not a leap to see you condone players using money to increase their in game performance, without actually getting better. 

 

But take it how ever you wish. 

 

Playing the game for free also takes zero skill. Do you even hit the battle button bro?

 

The majority clearly agree that powerful premiums are acceptable and the norm now.

 

But take it how ever you wish. I'll be taking my 432 out for another fun and profitable play session.

 

Money is cool and so is the stuff you can get with it. :coin:



Flarvin #51 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 02:20

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View PostTheManFromKekistan, on Nov 17 2018 - 20:13, said:

Playing the game for free also takes zero skill. Do you even hit the battle button bro?

 

This explains your reasoning. Taking zero skill to play, does not mean skill is meaningless. 

 

Yes, all those unicums are just lucky players pushing buttons. lol



TheManFromKekistan #52 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 02:33

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View PostFlarvin, on Nov 17 2018 - 20:20, said:

 

This explains your reasoning. Taking zero skill to play, does not mean skill is meaningless. 

 

Yes, all those unicums are just lucky players pushing buttons. lol

 

The hell are you on about? How did we go from talking about powerful premiums to pulling an entirely different topic about the skill spread between taters and guds out of your ar[i][/]se?

 

If you want to talk about player skill and how it applies to this game start your own thread.

 

As to this thread you said buying a premium tank takes zero skill and I replied that playing the game takes zero skill.

 

All it takes to play is to hit the battle button on a device capable of running the client with an internet connection. 

 

There are no skill requirements on any level. A certified super genius or a lobotomy patient with enough motor skills to use a mouse and keyboard can all play wot exactly the same and buy all the premiums they want just the same.

 

So anything else or are you just looking to be a contrarian and do circular arguments? :P



Flarvin #53 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 02:41

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View PostTheManFromKekistan, on Nov 17 2018 - 20:33, said:

 

The hell are you on about? How did we go from talking about powerful premiums to pulling an entirely different topic about the skill spread between taters and guds out of your ar[i][/]se?

 

If you want to talk about player skill and how it applies to this game start your own thread.

 

As to this thread you said buying a premium tank takes zero skill and I replied that playing the game takes zero skill.

 

All it takes to play is to hit the battle button on a device capable of running the client with an internet connection. 

 

There are no skill requirements on any level. A certified super genius or a lobotomy patient with enough motor skills to use a mouse and keyboard can all play wot exactly the same and buy all the premiums they want just the same.

 

So anything else or are you just looking to be a contrarian and do circular arguments? :P

 

Sorry if you did not understand. 

 

Buying an OP prem tank increases one’s performance with zero skill. 

 

Of course it requires no skill to buy a prem, or even play the game.

 

But paying for performance increase is heading towards pay to win territory. 

 

I believe performance should be linked to skill, not one’s pocketbook. 

 



TheManFromKekistan #54 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 02:56

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View PostFlarvin, on Nov 17 2018 - 20:41, said:

 

Sorry if you did not understand. 

 

Buying an OP prem tank increases one’s performance with zero skill. 

 

Of course it requires no skill to buy a prem, or even play the game.

 

But paying for performance increase is heading towards pay to win territory. 

 

I believe performance should be linked to skill, not one’s pocketbook. 

 

 

So if powerful premiums equals increased player performance why do so many players I see in the skorp and e25 and defender and 432 and whatever other powerful premium you can name seem to die in a fire in them with stats no better or even worse than their stats in their tech tree premiums? 

 

If a powerful premium equaled a measurable increase in player performance then the metrics would show it. However the best they can show is maybe a fraction of a percent better win rate curves which get completely devoured by the mm and rng and just the nature of having 30 strangers play as a 'team' each match.

 

So sure there might be an argument that powerful premiums allow a player to perform better but I'm not seeing that translate into hard numbers where bads somehow leap to average or even above average status because the tank has slightly better stats than tech. 

 

It all boils down to player skill in the end. A bad in a powerful premium is going to die to a good in a meh tech tree tank far more than the other way around. A good is going to whip every ones arse regardless of what tank they are in because personal skill trumps any negligible advantage a powerful premium gives you.

 

So in the end if you are buying powerful premiums thinking they are going to make a unicum out of a baddie then you just wasted your money. A tank is only as good as the driver after all.

 

But go ahead and spin the topic in another direction. I've got all night. :great:



riot_evo #55 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 03:00

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They should sell the leviathan for a premium tier 10, then let the tears flow

 



TheManFromKekistan #56 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 03:15

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View Postriot_evo, on Nov 17 2018 - 21:00, said:

They should sell the leviathan for a premium tier 10, then let the tears flow

 

 

I can see tier 10 premiums when the game is running out of content and they want to keep the shekels coming in for just a bit longer.

Asassian7 #57 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 04:04

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For once I actually agree with everything Flarvin said.

@OP i dont know why but all you seem to be doing is trying to get a rise out of people for no reason.

TheManFromKekistan #58 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 04:15

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View PostAsassian7, on Nov 17 2018 - 22:04, said:

For once I actually agree with everything Flarvin said.

@OP i dont know why but all you seem to be doing is trying to get a rise out of people for no reason.

 

I'm asking a question and debating those who answer. Are threads not about discussion here in general discussion? I'm sorry if my point of view differs from yours but so what? That's the point of a discussion thread. It seems nowadays anything that is counter to someones idea is now trolling or 'getting a rise' because its a conflicting opinion. So stop emoralizing about perceived imbalances and give me some concrete reasons you don't like powerful premiums past the already discounted idea that they make you better argument and the unfair that someone who pays with money gets something better than someone who doesn't pay money argument. Name me one single place or product or business in the world were money doesn't buy you something better than what you can get for free? Just one. I'll wait.

Asassian7 #59 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 06:26

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View PostTheManFromKekistan, on Nov 18 2018 - 15:15, said:

 

I'm asking a question and debating those who answer. Are threads not about discussion here in general discussion? I'm sorry if my point of view differs from yours but so what? That's the point of a discussion thread. It seems nowadays anything that is counter to someones idea is now trolling or 'getting a rise' because its a conflicting opinion. So stop emoralizing about perceived imbalances and give me some concrete reasons you don't like powerful premiums past the already discounted idea that they make you better argument and the unfair that someone who pays with money gets something better than someone who doesn't pay money argument. Name me one single place or product or business in the world were money doesn't buy you something better than what you can get for free? Just one. I'll wait.

You're missing the entire point is what! I explained this to you already.

 

This is a game. A sport. It is by design supposed to be fair and balanced to EVERYONE who plays. I gave you a concrete example of rules created in Car racing designed with tbe purpose of not giving teams who could afford to spend more a significant advantage. It does NOT create a good competitive environment when people have an advantage that is unobtainable by others with less money.

 

Therefore being able to buy prems that are directly better than tech tree counterparts is flat out wrong! It doesnt create a healthy competitive environment. It never has, and it never will. Pay to win games are ALWAYS terrible. The two most popular esport games out there, League of Legends and Counterstrike. Both are completely devoid of anything that can be paid for to give you an advantage. Anything similar to an overpowered prem in WoT. 

 

 

You're missing the point completely. This isnt a business to get ahead of others. This isnt a war where the biggest and best weapons win. This is a game. A game designed to be fair, and balanced, regardless of who plays and how much they can afford to spend.



WeSayNotToday #60 Posted Nov 18 2018 - 07:04

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View Postthe_Deadly_Bulb, on Nov 18 2018 - 01:23, said:

 

N.B.  Pay-to-win is a shorthand for a greater likelihood of winning, or paying for definite advantage.  This is an important statement in any pay-to-win discussion around here.
 

Not all Premium vehicles are created equally. Some are better than their tree counterparts, some are equal, others are not.

  • True, but most offer at least SOME advantage, OP is one of those advantages some offer.

Many times OP is in the opinion of the person commenting.

  • Null comment, OP can be shown statistically

Some times a vehicle being OP or not has as much to do with the player using it as the vehicle.

  • Null comment, OP can be shown statistically, although sometimes, statistics will show what type of player a tank will likely over-perform for.

There are OP tree vehicles too.

  • True, but not germane to the sale of OP premium vehicles as a trend.

They are OP for these same reasons.

  • Yes, but some [the tech tree tanks] can be earned in-game by the free-to-play, and the others [the premiums] cannot, or can no longer be.

 

 

Premium Accounts in no way influence the outcome of a match.

  • They absolutely do.  The ability to freely or vastly more often, in a vastly greater number of matches, at higher tiers, use more premium ammo and consumables definitely helps players that run premium.

Once the match is over those with Premium Accounts merely get better earnings, in both XP and credits, win or lose.

  • Yes, and they quicken stock grinds, which also helps a player's win rate.

It doesn't provide better MM, better tier placement, more accuracy, more damage or better pen and certainly not better WR.

  • Yes, it does help provide those things that are underlined.  More pen from more premium ammo brings more damage, which helps with win rate.  Greater shell speed, as much premium ammo has, brings greater accuracy.  Greater pen LESSENS the need for precision accuracy in many cases, so this is, effectively, greater accuracy.  Being able to afford MORE premium ammo, MORE OFTEN, is likely to positively affect one's win rate. 

All it does is increase the returns in either a win or a loss.

  • This is not true.

This makes the grind less tedious.

  • This in itself raises win rate, as one uses poorly equipped tanks less.

The 2 key is not a guarantee of greater damage [but it does make it more likely with each shot] or wins [but the ability to use more premium ammo does make winning more likely]. Prammo pens better (sometimes) [always has better pen or damage rating] that is pretty much all the magic of Prammo [see bolded additions].


 

Free XP conversion is not pay to win either.

  • Of course it is, but remember, pay-to-be-more-likely to win is really what is happening, and what anyone seriously talks about.  Freemium games that straight up hand you wins for money get exposed and lose popularity in the FTP crowd.  Anyway, anything that gives advantage over the free-to-play player for money is a pay-to-win feature.  Maybe strongly pay-to-win, maybe only weakly pay-to-win, but paying for advantage is pay-to-win.  Free XP conversion that is used to improve crew, skip poor or bad modules or bad tanks improves the win chances [by avoiding matches in underequipped tanks/ with poor crews] to the paying player and is at least partially a pay-to-win mechanic.

The freemium player that knows what they're doing isn't going to let XP build on a tree vehicle once its Elited. They will ensure the Accelerate Crew is active.

Yes Free XP allows you to skip horribad tanks and stock grinds, but the freemium player earns Free XP too, albeit at a slower pace and even OP tanks don't guarantee better WR.

  • Guaranteeing a better win rate is not the problem, making wins more likely is really what we are talking about here when we say pay-to-win.

RNG is there to mess things up, as are your team mates, the OPFOR and your own errors .

  • This is where statistics help illustrate things, statistics that are freely available.


 

With these things in mind I don't feel this equates to Premium Time or gold use being Pay to Win, its more like Pay to Avoid Tedium.

  • Much of that tedium involves underperforming tanks, skipping them brings greater win possibilities, and that is pay-for-advantage, or, commonly, pay-to-win.

 

Edit:

Didn't vote

  • Did vote

Poll seemed biased, narrow, and agenda driven.

  • Agreed


 


 

 

 

 See bolded.

 


Edited by WeSayNotToday, Nov 18 2018 - 07:30.






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