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[ST] Panhard EBR 105


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slayer6 #21 Posted Jan 03 2019 - 07:57

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350m view range + Improved Coated Optics (5000 Bonds), results in 392.5m view range... 

 

Interestingly the FV4005 has 390m view range, and whilst the camo difference might be a topical point...

 

The fact remains that improving s**t, still means it's s**t...



Sniper #22 Posted Jan 03 2019 - 09:03

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View Postslayer6, on Jan 03 2019 - 01:57, said:

350m view range + Improved Coated Optics (5000 Bonds), results in 392.5m view range... 

 

Interestingly the FV4005 has 390m view range, and whilst the camo difference might be a topical point...

 

The fact remains that improving s**t, still means it's s**t...

 

You forgot that vents, BiA, and the view range skills improve view range a lot too

slayer6 #23 Posted Jan 03 2019 - 10:10

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View PostSniper, on Jan 03 2019 - 09:03, said:

 

You forgot that vents, BiA, and the view range skills improve view range a lot too

Let's look at those values for a moment then...

 

Each increase is multiplicative, not additive.

 

350m base

2% Recon

3% Situational Awareness

10% Food

10% Optics

5% Vents

5% Brothers in Arms

 

Therefore:

350 x (1.02 x 1.03 x 1.10 x 1.10 x 1.05 x 1.05) = 490.53m

 

Now let's take a look at an FV4005 (390m base) that isn't taking Optics as it isn't intending to scout...

 

390 x (1.02 x 1.03 x 1.10 x 1.05 x 1.05) = 496.9m

 

Then we can add a Medium tank into the mix, oh lets try the BatChat 25t (400m base)...

 

400 x (1.02 x 1.03 x 1.10 x 1.10 x 1.05 x 1.05) = 560.61m

 

Now, that base view range means the tank still doesn't quite reach the view range on a Tank Destroyer of the same tier.  Whilst the Camouflage values will partially remedy this differential, the fact remains that the view range is hopeless...

 

The typical BatChat 25t scout has over 160m in additional spotting range... in other words +26% spotting power at 445m...  The Armored Car has barely 10%...

 

The result is a tank that is mediocre in its given role, and only works when people are actually shooting at it and revealing their positions - the role could work if Camouflage performed like World of Warships and increased dispersion of the guns firing at it by a set percentage...

 

So, no I don't think that going all out to improve the view range will work very much, given that the view range is second only to that of the SPGs...



RC_1140 #24 Posted Jan 04 2019 - 01:00

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View Postslayer6, on Jan 03 2019 - 01:10, said:

Let's look at those values for a moment then...

 

Each increase is multiplicative, not additive.

 

350m base

2% Recon

3% Situational Awareness

10% Food

10% Optics

5% Vents

5% Brothers in Arms

 

Therefore:

350 x (1.02 x 1.03 x 1.10 x 1.10 x 1.05 x 1.05) = 490.53m

 

Now let's take a look at an FV4005 (390m base) that isn't taking Optics as it isn't intending to scout...

 

390 x (1.02 x 1.03 x 1.10 x 1.05 x 1.05) = 496.9m

 

Then we can add a Medium tank into the mix, oh lets try the BatChat 25t (400m base)...

 

400 x (1.02 x 1.03 x 1.10 x 1.10 x 1.05 x 1.05) = 560.61m

 

Now, that base view range means the tank still doesn't quite reach the view range on a Tank Destroyer of the same tier.  Whilst the Camouflage values will partially remedy this differential, the fact remains that the view range is hopeless...

 

The typical BatChat 25t scout has over 160m in additional spotting range... in other words +26% spotting power at 445m...  The Armored Car has barely 10%...

 

The result is a tank that is mediocre in its given role, and only works when people are actually shooting at it and revealing their positions - the role could work if Camouflage performed like World of Warships and increased dispersion of the guns firing at it by a set percentage...

 

So, no I don't think that going all out to improve the view range will work very much, given that the view range is second only to that of the SPGs...

 

Actually that's not quite right. You can use the in game compare tool on a tank with 350 view range to get the right view range with all that. It comes out to 460 with everything including bond vents and optics, 470 if you add the optic directive.

 

I think your problem was adding vents, BIA, and food value to view range when it actually adds to the crew training level. While that affects view range food won't add 10% directly to view range. If I remember (not in game atm so I can't check) food adds about half of what optics does, so food, BIA, and vents should be about 10% more view range not 20%. But If you set up a tank with 350 view range (UDES for example) in the comparison tool you will get the numbers you want. Don't use tanks.gg because their view range is always wrong when you add stuff to it. 



Sniper #25 Posted Jan 04 2019 - 06:37

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View PostRC_1140, on Jan 03 2019 - 19:00, said:

 

Actually that's not quite right. You can use the in game compare tool on a tank with 350 view range to get the right view range with all that. It comes out to 460 with everything including bond vents and optics, 470 if you add the optic directive.

 

I think your problem was adding vents, BIA, and food value to view range when it actually adds to the crew training level. While that affects view range food won't add 10% directly to view range. If I remember (not in game atm so I can't check) food adds about half of what optics does, so food, BIA, and vents should be about 10% more view range not 20%. But If you set up a tank with 350 view range (UDES for example) in the comparison tool you will get the numbers you want. Don't use tanks.gg because their view range is always wrong when you add stuff to it. 

 

The main difference between this and a batchat or t-100 is that this can go 105 kph, is tough to track with anything other than an HE splash taking out 4+ wheels. The camo should be around mid range for a Tier 10 LT, so certainly not too shabby. Any view range much higher than 350m will just mean more camo being seen through. Do you really want to move maybe 300m in a t100 at the start of a game on prok, only for the enemy EBR to be camoed up in a bush 800m away from his spawn, while having the same viewrange as you?

RC_1140 #26 Posted Jan 04 2019 - 08:12

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View PostSniper, on Jan 03 2019 - 21:37, said:

 

The main difference between this and a batchat or t-100 is that this can go 105 kph, is tough to track with anything other than an HE splash taking out 4+ wheels. The camo should be around mid range for a Tier 10 LT, so certainly not too shabby. Any view range much higher than 350m will just mean more camo being seen through. Do you really want to move maybe 300m in a t100 at the start of a game on prok, only for the enemy EBR to be camoed up in a bush 800m away from his spawn, while having the same viewrange as you?

 

I'm confused. In that quote all I did was point out the EBR's actual view range. Which is 460-470 max not 490. Do you disagree? And what does the T100 have to do with me correcting someone else about the EBR's view range?

slayer6 #27 Posted Jan 04 2019 - 08:13

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View PostRC_1140, on Jan 04 2019 - 01:00, said:

 

Actually that's not quite right. You can use the in game compare tool on a tank with 350 view range to get the right view range with all that. It comes out to 460 with everything including bond vents and optics, 470 if you add the optic directive.

 

I think your problem was adding vents, BIA, and food value to view range when it actually adds to the crew training level. While that affects view range food won't add 10% directly to view range. If I remember (not in game atm so I can't check) food adds about half of what optics does, so food, BIA, and vents should be about 10% more view range not 20%. But If you set up a tank with 350 view range (UDES for example) in the comparison tool you will get the numbers you want. Don't use tanks.gg because their view range is always wrong when you add stuff to it. 

 

You are assuming quite a bit...

 

I used the World of Tanks wiki and their values for increased view ranges dependent on skills...

 

Even if the food, vents and brothers in arms values were discounted as the ratio would remain exactly the same; the differences granted by the combination of Optics, Situational Awareness, and Recon still does not result in a significant enough increase to warrant the vehicle becoming a useful spotter.

 

The core of this issue is that the 350m view range is completely unsuitable for any form of scouting, unless being fired upon is a crucial component...  The fact they cannot fit Binoculars compounds this.  An enemy LT100 with 40% camouflage would still outspot this vehicle, albeit at a much closer range.  About the only scout which outspots a full camouflaged LT100 is the ELC EVEN 90, but that... toy... is able to approach mythological levels of light tank camouflage...


Edited by slayer6, Jan 04 2019 - 08:18.


RC_1140 #28 Posted Jan 04 2019 - 08:27

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View Postslayer6, on Jan 03 2019 - 23:13, said:

 

You are assuming quite a bit...

 

I used the World of Tanks wiki and their values for increased view ranges dependent on skills...

 

Even if the food, vents and brothers in arms values were discounted as the ratio would remain exactly the same; the differences granted by the combination of Optics, Situational Awareness, and Recon still does not result in a significant enough increase to warrant the vehicle becoming a useful spotter.

 

The core of this issue is that the 350m view range is completely unsuitable for any form of scouting, unless being fired upon is a crucial component...  The fact they cannot fit Binoculars compounds this.  An enemy LT100 with 40% camouflage would still outspot this vehicle, albeit at a much closer range.  About the only scout which outspots a full camouflaged LT100 is the ELC EVEN 90, but that... toy... is able to approach mythological levels of light tank camouflage...

 

No need to do anything complicated when a tool in game gives you the exact numbers you want. Tank with 350 base view range set up with BIA, SA, Recon, bond vents, bond optics, optics directive:

 

 

Feel free to test it yourself. 

 

 

As to if its too low, at first I would say yes (for sure yes for the 310 at t8), but there is a balance to be made with the speed. Is 470 view range with 105 speed balanced vs 522 view range and 72 speed (T100)? It could probably use a bit more but too much would easily be op. Maybe 360 base? Personally I'd give it terrible camo and good view range, it can try to be passive but will get spotted for it. I don't find the t10's view range to be that bad, but I think the lower tiers need buffed for sure. Maybe -10 per tier instead of the -20 it is now. So 350, 340, 330, 320, 310 for t10-6. 



Sniper #29 Posted Jan 04 2019 - 21:49

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View PostRC_1140, on Jan 04 2019 - 02:12, said:

 

I'm confused. In that quote all I did was point out the EBR's actual view range. Which is 460-470 max not 490. Do you disagree? And what does the T100 have to do with me correcting someone else about the EBR's view range?

 

Mis-clicked, meant to replay to the guy you did. Long day :teethhappy:

Mikosah #30 Posted Jan 04 2019 - 22:52

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Having 350m base view range is right on the cusp of getting scouting potential but only so with a ridiculously huge investment into a view range loadout. Combining food, super-optics, and directives is not going to be common. Even for a player with a good crew, getting above 445m is going to be an expensive proposition. If the commander is also the radioman, it only gets worse. Meanwhile the other wheeled lights with roughly 310m base view range couldn't get far even with the maximum spotting build. 

 

The speed and the stealth are all well and good, but these are not scouts, active or otherwise. 



Sniper #31 Posted Jan 07 2019 - 04:50

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View PostMikosah, on Jan 04 2019 - 16:52, said:

Having 350m base view range is right on the cusp of getting scouting potential but only so with a ridiculously huge investment into a view range loadout. Combining food, super-optics, and directives is not going to be common. Even for a player with a good crew, getting above 445m is going to be an expensive proposition. If the commander is also the radioman, it only gets worse. Meanwhile the other wheeled lights with roughly 310m base view range couldn't get far even with the maximum spotting build. 

 

The speed and the stealth are all well and good, but these are not scouts, active or otherwise. 

 

These new wheeled tanks have to be worse than current lights passive spotting, while still not being useless. It will certainly be tough to balance, and the sooner we can get a common test, the sooner we can see if the view range works

RC_1140 #32 Posted Jan 07 2019 - 05:41

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View PostSniper, on Jan 04 2019 - 12:49, said:

 

Mis-clicked, meant to replay to the guy you did. Long day :teethhappy:

 

Ah, that makes more sense. 

Mikosah #33 Posted Jan 07 2019 - 06:56

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View PostSniper, on Jan 06 2019 - 21:50, said:

 

These new wheeled tanks have to be worse than current lights passive spotting, while still not being useless. It will certainly be tough to balance, and the sooner we can get a common test, the sooner we can see if the view range works

 

So there's two easy possible solutions to this problem. The first is to abandon the pretense of these things being scouts of any kind, and instead market them as fast skirmishers. WG would hardly have to change any of the stats, just state the obvious that these aren't meant to spot anything. Of course they'd still have to explain how these are expected to survive in the current meta, but that's another matter.

 

The second possibility is for them to give the entire light tank class a view range buff, both passive and active scouts alike. If the wheeled scouts actually had decent view range while the standard lights had outstanding view range, then both types would work well. Of course we can make exceptions for certain strong premium lights that don't need any buffs. I'm really not worried about lights becoming OP. The spotting cap is still in place, bonus view range above 445m only reduces enemy camo which is exactly what light tanks should be doing.






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