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Why do you lose huge amounts off of your marks of excellence, if you're team killed?


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Scorpiany #1 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 09:15

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WZ-120-1G FT was at 93.84%, T49 team kills me for nearly full HP, then taunts me. Dropped my mark down to 92.41%.

 

In my T110E4 a couple of weeks ago, I was at 98.2% on my mark. I got TK'd for full HP, it dropped down to 96.5%.

 

​It's extremely frustrating when I'm getting very close to either 3-marking a tank, or reaching 100%, then some special snowflake ruins a week or two of grinding with just one battle. I've been stuck at 90% on my WZ-120-1G FT for 2 weeks now. Today, I was making significant progress, getting it up to 93.84% meant that 1 really good battle could push me over the edge, after being stuck for 2 weeks. Same with the T110E4, I was stuck at 96% for a while, finally got it moving upwards.

 

If you're team killed in a battle, you shouldn't lose MoE - Especially not a full 1.5% from a single match like that. Obviously it's a tough call to balance, because it could be abused if team damage stopped marks from changing at all, but as it stands right now, someone can choose to completely ruin a long grind with just 1 single match - And they don't even get banned for team damage. The T49 that TK'd me didn't even turn blue, and the BatChat that TK'd me did turn blue, but was still able to play.

 

It's ridiculous in my opinion. Any ideas on how to change the system to be a little bit less harsh? 1.5% lost because someone else decided to be a prick seems completely ludicrous to me.



kapri25 #2 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 09:23

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I wish WarGaming would just turn off team damage...like they do on console and Blitz. I do not know why they insist on keeping it in effect. I am guilty of accidentally hitting someone but to tk someone is a troll move...

Edited by kapri25, Dec 13 2018 - 09:23.


Avalon304 #3 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 09:23

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Dont get teamkilled?

 

I mean... I cant actually recall the last time I was tk'd in this game, atleast not on purpose. Like I dont condone teamkilling at all, but the times Ive seen it done the person being tk'd has deserved it... so...



Scorpiany #4 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 09:33

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View PostAvalon304, on Dec 13 2018 - 00:23, said:

Dont get teamkilled?

 

I mean... I cant actually recall the last time I was tk'd in this game, atleast not on purpose. Like I dont condone teamkilling at all, but the times Ive seen it done the person being tk'd has deserved it... so...

 

This very well may be the worst response I've ever seen from someone on the Forums.

 

View Postkapri25, on Dec 13 2018 - 00:23, said:

I wish WarGaming would just turn off team damage...like they do on console and Blitz. I do not know why they insist on keeping it in effect. I am guilty of accidentally hitting someone but to tk someone is a troll move...

 

Even for accidental team damage it still feels like it's just a bad mechanic. The very next match our allied arty shoots me in the rear when I move to engage the enemy Conway. I understand that you're supposed to be careful when shooting near allies and all that, but the reality is, people aren't. It just causes frustration, and it's so easily abused.

 

And to make things worse, WG doesn't even accept reports for team damage. There are many people who know how to abuse the system perfectly. TK'ing on a consistent basis is very easy, and I've seen people do as much as 4 fully penetrating shots of team damage without even turning blue, let alone getting banned. It's laughable. Leaving it to an automated system, in my opinion, is just bad - Especially when the people abusing the system openly admit it and brag about it in chat.



Avalon304 #5 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 10:03

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I mean you can say its stupid... but if youre getting team killed this often the problem is more than likely your attitude in matches...

 

Also its only dealing team damage that actively subtracts marks... getting team killed just ends your match early... (which is no different than if you suck out and lose mark progress that way) and theres really no way for WG to fix that... short of turning off team damage, I guess...



Allegra #6 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 10:05

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View PostScorpiany, on Dec 13 2018 - 03:33, said:

 

This very well may be the worst response I've ever seen from someone on the Forums.

 

 

Even for accidental team damage it still feels like it's just a bad mechanic. The very next match our allied arty shoots me in the rear when I move to engage the enemy Conway. I understand that you're supposed to be careful when shooting near allies and all that, but the reality is, people aren't. It just causes frustration, and it's so easily abused.

 

And to make things worse, WG doesn't even accept reports for team damage. There are many people who know how to abuse the system perfectly. TK'ing on a consistent basis is very easy, and I've seen people do as much as 4 fully penetrating shots of team damage without even turning blue, let alone getting banned. It's laughable. Leaving it to an automated system, in my opinion, is just bad - Especially when the people abusing the system openly admit it and brag about it in chat.

 

1. I actually doubt it's the worst response you've ever read, but it's up there, I agree.

 

2. The Team Damage idea is just an excuse for someone to 'spray and pray' if they don't have a clear shot - and not have any consequences.

 

However, your initial post is an interesting one. I agree, your percentages shouldn't be affected in these cases.

 

Cheers



NightmareMk9 #7 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 10:05

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Don't get TK'd LOL

coconut2011 #8 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 10:06

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The thing is, it is too easy to fix the MoE if TK can void a battle.  I understand where you came from and I had similar experiences.  Just treat it as part of the game and move on.



Scorpiany #9 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 10:16

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View PostAvalon304, on Dec 13 2018 - 01:03, said:

I mean you can say its stupid... but if youre getting team killed this often the problem is more than likely your attitude in matches...

 

Also its only dealing team damage that actively subtracts marks... getting team killed just ends your match early... (which is no different than if you suck out and lose mark progress that way) and theres really no way for WG to fix that... short of turning off team damage, I guess...

 

I'm the person who says "Good luck, have fun everyone! ^-^" and "Good game all" and the start and end of every battle. I'm the one who offers players advice when they're struggling, or offers help. I'm the one who runs events and pays for them out-of-pocket (With help from my Clan or Discord) just to do something fun for the community. My "attitude" is not a problem here - It's the players who get a kick out of pissing someone off, or ruining their day... Or who just want attention at the expense of someone else. Am I salty sometimes? Sure. I'm not perfect. I get easily frustrated. Sometimes I go off on someone. If somebody TK'd me in the rare match where I'm having a bad day, at least there would be a reason for it. You would be able to say I deserved it. I'm a fan of the concept of karma, fair enough. Thing is, that's never the case.

 

In that match that caused this post, the T49 that team killed me? He did it because of the Christmas event. He wanted to make sure nobody got into the event that match, and he specifically celebrated making my mark drop.

 

1 week before that? I got team killed with racist & homophobic messages being sent my way because someone was upset I had asked them to move up and push a flank with me.

 

Just 2 weeks earlier, I got TK'd by someone because of my guides and tutorials. They then proceeded to tell me that I should end my life in a horrific manner. The reason? They thought my guides were bad and that I must have a mental disability to write them.

 

I have not done anything to "deserve" getting team killed, as you've implied. And to say "Don't get team killed"... Is laughable. You can't avoid it, when someone else decides to ruin your day or to piss you off. Especially when there are many people out there that just want to:

  • Ruin my events
  • Hate me because they think my guides are subpar
  • TK me because they think I'm a WG shill for being a contributor
  • Ruin my marks

 

So please, tell me how I should "just not get team killed" and how it must be my fault that I'm getting TK'd. I mean sure, my events, or my guides, or being a contributor - They're all my choice to do. Technically I'm putting myself at the center of attention, good or bad. But how does that, in any way, mean that I deserve to be team killed or trolled?

 


Edited by Scorpiany, Dec 13 2018 - 11:38.


kapri25 #10 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 10:20

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View PostAvalon304, on Dec 13 2018 - 04:03, said:

I mean you can say its stupid... but if youre getting team killed this often the problem is more than likely your attitude in matches...

 

Also its only dealing team damage that actively subtracts marks... getting team killed just ends your match early... (which is no different than if you suck out and lose mark progress that way) and theres really no way for WG to fix that... short of turning off team damage, I guess...

 

Let me explain the basic concept on how getting TKed in a game can effect one's MoE stat. If you are going for an average stat (across the board) to get your MoE stat to a certain level then one not only has to meet those requirements but also surpass them. This is measured through 100 battles. You do (In Scorp's case) 95 percent better through the battles in one tank then during or after those 100 battles you MoE stat will show it. However, if you are TKed or die in any other way without meeting the average in a battle it will negatively impact your "score." So if Scorp goes into a battle with his MoE at 93 percent but gets TKed without doing damage or other stats required then it is going to effect it in a negative way. You have to maintain that amount. So If the top 95 percent of people are doing 4k damage then he needs to meet that as well as surpass it.

Avalon304 #11 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 10:33

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View Postkapri25, on Dec 13 2018 - 02:20, said:

 

Let me explain the basic concept on how getting TKed in a game can effect one's MoE stat. If you are going for an average stat (across the board) to get your MoE stat to a certain level then one not only has to meet those requirements but also surpass them. This is measured through 100 battles. You do (In Scorp's case) 95 percent better through the battles in one tank then during or after those 100 battles you MoE stat will show it. However, if you are TKed or die in any other way without meeting the average in a battle it will negatively impact your "score." So if Scorp goes into a battle with his MoE at 93 percent but gets TKed without doing damage or other stats required then it is going to effect it in a negative way. You have to maintain that amount. So If the top 95 percent of people are doing 4k damage then he needs to meet that as well as surpass it.

 

I know how MoEs work. But being team killed early is no different than if you have a bad game and dont die at all, or have a bad game and die early. Being killed before you deal enough damage is the problem... not specifically being team killed. So the solution to said problem is dont die early. (And if youre team killed at the end of a match its no different than if you die at the end of a match... the act of being team killed isnt what affect marks, its just dying early without enough combined damage).

 

Theres no way around it... because making games where youre team killed not count is too easily abused (as in if you see your having a bad game you can just drive infront of friendly shots to die) and disabling team damage is just a silly idea, especailly for such a silly reason. Again... I can not recall the last time I was purposefully (or accidentally) team killed in this game.



Allegra #12 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 10:47

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View PostAvalon304, on Dec 13 2018 - 04:33, said:

<Snip>

 

But being team killed early is no different than if you have a bad game and dont die at all, or have a bad game and die early. Being killed before you deal enough damage is the problem... not specifically being team killed. So the solution to said problem is dont die early. (And if youre team killed at the end of a match its no different than if you die at the end of a match... the act of being team killed isnt what affect marks, its just dying early without enough combined damage).

 

<Snip>

Really?

 

'Being team killed early is no different than if you have a bad game and don't die at all or have a bad game and die early.'

 

In this instance, you don't even receive the chance to have a bad game - and it's through no fault of your own.

 

<Shakes head>

 

Cheers



kapri25 #13 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 10:55

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View PostAvalon304, on Dec 13 2018 - 04:33, said:

 

I know how MoEs work. But being team killed early is no different than if you have a bad game and dont die at all, or have a bad game and die early. Being killed before you deal enough damage is the problem... not specifically being team killed. So the solution to said problem is dont die early. (And if youre team killed at the end of a match its no different than if you die at the end of a match... the act of being team killed isnt what affect marks, its just dying early without enough combined damage).

 

Theres no way around it... because making games where youre team killed not count is too easily abused (as in if you see your having a bad game you can just drive infront of friendly shots to die) and disabling team damage is just a silly idea, especailly for such a silly reason. Again... I can not recall the last time I was purposefully (or accidentally) team killed in this game.

 

I don't know what game you're playing but not only have I experienced being TKed but have watched it as well...in just this past week alone. Many people have. Whether you were TKed or not is by no means a measure that it doesn't happen. And whose to say when someone TKs you? You cannot sit there and give a response like that when most of the time in random matches you have no idea who you are playing with and their mentality. For example. A couple of days ago a CC (I never heard of...sorry!) who was playing on his Sheriffs account had to message the team not to TK him because they would not get the 250 gold. Another example is I was playing on abbey at some low tier and some idiot decided to just shoot while moving. Now, I would normally ignore this as a new player thing to do but what happened was some poor person was in front of him also moving into position. 1 2 3 4 shots and the poor guy is dead. The team questioned the team killer but they said nothing and he never turned blue. Skorp gave his examples...but you say don't die early and yet how do you not if you have people who take offense to what Skorp does? And what's your issue with taking team damage off? Do you look to purposely tk?

Edited by kapri25, Dec 13 2018 - 11:05.


jsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1 #14 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 11:05

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this is flawed suggestion 

 

this is like when u shot your own arta and u got the 10% reload bonus cuz low health

 

so if u have bad game just ram youself into teammate or get platoon mate 2 kill u and save your marks???

 

naaaaaaaah braah



Avalon304 #15 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 11:07

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View PostAllegra, on Dec 13 2018 - 02:47, said:

Really?

 

'Being team killed early is no different than if you have a bad game and don't die at all or have a bad game and die early.'

 

In this instance, you don't even receive the chance to have a bad game - and it's through no fault of your own.

 

<Shakes head>

 

Cheers

 

And how is that different than getting one shot out of the gate by an FV4005? Or artillery? Or just ammo racked from full health at the beginning of a game by that random snap shot as youre driving into position? Each of those would affect an MoE just the same as some random pleb on your team doing it to you. Your death is what negatively affects the mark, not who caused it.

 

So to answer the question posed in the title: You lose percentage on your marks because you died without doing enouigh damage to ensure you didnt lose progress.

 

And theres no way to stop TKs losing you progress short of disabling team damage completely, which is just stupid, because all that does is encourage people to just shoot their guns because theres no consequences. No team damage could easily be abused way more than having it in the game is.

 

So at the end of it all the solution is to not get team killed. If that means you turn your chat off and dont draw attention to yourself thats what that means.

 

View Postkapri25, on Dec 13 2018 - 02:55, said:

 

I don't know what game you're playing but not only have I experienced being TKed but have watched it as well...in just this past week alone. Many people have. Whether you were TKed or not is by no means a measure that it doesn't happen. And whose to say when someone TKs you? You cannot sit there and give a response like that when most of the time in random matches you have no idea who you are playing with and their mentality. For example. A couple of days ago a CC (I never heard of...sorry!) who was playing on his Sheriffs account had to message the team not to TK him because they would not get the 250 gold. Another example is I was playing on abbey at some low tier and some idiot decided to just shoot while moving. Now, I would normally ignore this as a new player thing to do but what happened was some poor person was in front of him also moving into position. 1 2 3 4 shots and the poor guy is dead. The team questioned the team killer but they said nothing and he never turned blue. Skorp gave his examples...but you say don't die early and yet how do you not if you have people who take offense to what Skorp does? And what's your issue with taking team damage off? Do you look to purposely tk?

 

Im playing the same one as you... and I cant recall the last time I was actively tk'd, nor can I recall the last time I saw another person get tk'd (either on my team or the enemy team).

 

And disabling team damge is just stupid. All it does is reinforce that people should just shoot their guns because theres no consequence if theres a team mate in the way. Its dumbing down the game further for an absolutely silly reason. You should be forced to choose between damaging an enemy or risking damage to a friendly if theyre both in your aiming circle. You should be penalized for not being aware that another tank is going to pull in front of your gun, and you should be similarly penalized (by losing health) if you pull infront of a friendly gun as they fire. Team damage makes you (or other players) accountable for their shots.

 

And making games where you get tkd not count for marks could also easily be abused, by getting yourself purposefully tk'd to avoid losing progress.



Allegra #16 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 11:25

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View PostAvalon304, on Dec 13 2018 - 05:07, said:

 

And how is that different than getting one shot out of the gate by an FV4005? Or artillery? Or just ammo racked from full health at the beginning of a game by that random snap shot as youre driving into position? Each of those would affect an MoE just the same as some random pleb on your team doing it to you. Your death is what negatively affects the mark, not who caused it.

 

So to answer the question posed in the title: You lose percentage on your marks because you died without doing enouigh damage to ensure you didnt lose progress.

 

And theres no way to stop TKs losing you progress short of disabling team damage completely, which is just stupid, because all that does is encourage people to just shoot their guns because theres no consequences. No team damage could easily be abused way more than having it in the game is.

 

So at the end of it all the solution is to not get team killed. If that means you turn your chat off and dont draw attention to yourself thats what that means.

 

<Snip>

Well, I'd suggest that if you were shot at the start of the match by the opposing team, that's a part of the game. 

 

In this case, to be TK at the start is not a part of the game as it was intended. Just call me silly, I suppose.

 

As for the remainder of your statement, for the most part I agree - apart from the so called solution.

 

May I ask how one avoids being TKed?

 

Cheers



kapri25 #17 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 11:54

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View PostAvalon304, on Dec 13 2018 - 05:07, said:

 

And how is that different than getting one shot out of the gate by an FV4005? Or artillery? Or just ammo racked from full health at the beginning of a game by that random snap shot as youre driving into position? Each of those would affect an MoE just the same as some random pleb on your team doing it to you. Your death is what negatively affects the mark, not who caused it.

 

So to answer the question posed in the title: You lose percentage on your marks because you died without doing enouigh damage to ensure you didnt lose progress.

 

And theres no way to stop TKs losing you progress short of disabling team damage completely, which is just stupid, because all that does is encourage people to just shoot their guns because theres no consequences. No team damage could easily be abused way more than having it in the game is.

 

So at the end of it all the solution is to not get team killed. If that means you turn your chat off and dont draw attention to yourself thats what that means.

 

 

Im playing the same one as you... and I cant recall the last time I was actively tk'd, nor can I recall the last time I saw another person get tk'd (either on my team or the enemy team).

 

And disabling team damge is just stupid. All it does is reinforce that people should just shoot their guns because theres no consequence if theres a team mate in the way. Its dumbing down the game further for an absolutely silly reason. You should be forced to choose between damaging an enemy or risking damage to a friendly if theyre both in your aiming circle. You should be penalized for not being aware that another tank is going to pull in front of your gun, and you should be similarly penalized (by losing health) if you pull infront of a friendly gun as they fire. Team damage makes you (or other players) accountable for their shots.

 

And making games where you get tkd not count for marks could also easily be abused, by getting yourself purposefully tk'd to avoid losing progress.

 

The only people who shoot at random times are those truly new to the game. As any player starts to progress in their knowledge of the game they realize that randomly firing effects their battle and their stats as well. Hit ratio goes down, etc, etc. So there are consequences to shooting randomly into nothing. Having team damage off would only penalize those who shoot at other team mates either accidentally or purposely. They would lose the cost for replacing the shell at the end of battle and their stats would hurt. Why should people suffer a TK (for whatever reason)? 

You also keep saying about people purposely looking to get TKed...why? There sure are times when I have seen griefers look for you to shoot them. Constantly bumping and moving your tank for example. BUt what about Skorp's examples? Is he really at fault for being a well known name? A youtuber? CC or a guy who helps others? Or that he runs events? In essence, you defended the people who TKed him. I mean...why? A guy like him ain't making the idiot mistakes that I may make. He is not purposely pulling in front of other tanks so he can get a shot. I had one match a little while with him (I don't want to talk about it...) and he was respectful and polite despite that the whole team only had one kill to our name...he had every right to be mad but he did not rage. So why would he or others who get TKed for silly reasons be considered at fault for being TKed? 



BlaqWolf #18 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 12:00

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Yeah, the team damage system used in WoWS works splendidly (unless you run into some team member's poorly aimed torpedoes)... someone does intentional damage to you they take it themselves.

In WoT the team damage system sucks some pretty nasty rancid bovine testicles.  Team members can willy nilly shoot anyone on their team they want and, often, do not even turn blue.  Or they just push your vehicle around, ect.  WoT pub matches are pretty badly stained by grief play and WG has utterly zero interest in policing it effectively.  They don't even take manual reports any more - and the automated system is a complete joke.

 

Notice that people like Klaus don't have channels dedicated to a55holes in other WG titles, or for many other games (besides fast twitch MOBAs with a rather high cheater index).


Edited by BlaqWolf, Dec 13 2018 - 12:15.


Scorpiany #19 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 12:10

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View Postjsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1, on Dec 13 2018 - 02:05, said:

this is flawed suggestion 

 

this is like when u shot your own arta and u got the 10% reload bonus cuz low health

 

so if u have bad game just ram youself into teammate or get platoon mate 2 kill u and save your marks???

 

naaaaaaaah braah

 

I'm not saying that team damage should completely cancel out a mark. But maybe if you get TK'd in the first minute, the match doesn't count at all, and for every minute after that, maybe a balance between the amount of team damage you receive vs. the impact it has on your mark. Maybe 2nd minute team damage in large amounts halves the effect of the battle, but small amounts of team damage won't change whether or not it counts. 3rd minute maybe only full TK's reduce the effect of the battle by half. By minute 4-5, full TK only reduces it by 25%.

 

Something like that would be a lot harder to abuse, but still provides you with a buffer against trolls / team killers. That way if you hardly took team damage, then the mark still goes up/down normally, but if you took a substantial amount, it's taken into consideration. Early team damage is also most likely to have a devastating effect - Especially in large amounts.

 

So essentially:

  • More team damage you take, the less the mark is changed during the battle. That way small amounts can't be abused by Platoonmates.
  • Earlier the team damage is taken, the less the mark is changed. This also prevents abuse, since it gives the most consideration to the most crucial parts of the battle (Before you had an opportunity to actually do anything).

 

Obviously that's not a perfect system, but it would provide at least some kind of buffer, and is relatively resistant to abuse.



Arcata #20 Posted Dec 13 2018 - 18:21

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View Postkapri25, on Dec 13 2018 - 09:23, said:

I wish WarGaming would just turn off team damage...like they do on console and Blitz. I do not know why they insist on keeping it in effect. I am guilty of accidentally hitting someone but to tk someone is a troll move...

 

That would be a horrible thing.  Sometimes team killing is 100% necessary, and the only recourse to prevent griefing.  Here's a perfect example that happened to me literally yesterday:

We had an ST-1 who said in chat at the start of the match, "I'm going to make us lose".  He never fired a shot the entire match, instead he drove from one flank to the other, shoving all our TD's, lights, and mediums out from behind cover and into the enemy line of fire.  We started to lose quickly, as you can imagine, and we decided to TK him.  After doing that we were nearly able to turn the match around, but had to settle for a draw.  Our team would easily have won had he not griefed us for most of the battle.  And as we all know, reporting unsportsmanlike conduct does absolutely nothing.   






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