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WOWS ammo is how WOT should have been from the beginning


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bubbleboy264 #1 Posted Dec 16 2018 - 18:38

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I play both WOT and WOWS, and while I love both, warships ammo system is fundamentally better than tanks. You have 2 ammo types, AP and HE. Both are useful depending on the situation and type of ship, and proper management/use of the 2 types is critical to being successful. It is simple enough for beginners to understand, but complex enough that experienced players can have a much better use out of proper ammo management than newcomers. It is a balanced and overall fair system, with nuances and meta around it (ex. DDs mainly fire HE, BBs mainly fire AP, but both classes should switch types in the right situation). 

 

Compare that to world of tanks, which has premium ammo that changes everything. You almost always fire either AP or gold, and if you can afford it you fire almost all gold, causing a domino effect of increasing armor, pen, power creep, and bad balancing that makes the game worse and less fun. It has pay to win as a fundamental game mechanic. In warships this simply doesn’t exist. There are premium consumables, yes, but they have much less of an effect than gold rounds. In tanks, many vehicles can’t pen higher tier tanks at all frontally, expect if you dab that 2 key. Wows doesn’t have this issue. Any ship can kill any other ship, if given enough time. Bottom tier isn’t a torture session like it is here. Now part of this is due to the differences between ship and tank combat, but premium amp makes it much worse.

 

Premium ammo just shouldn’t have been in the game at all from the beginning. WOWS has it right with ammo, but not tanks. And now the problem is that because gold ammo is so essential to game balance and meta, changing/nerfing it could cause the game balance to break completely, requiring a systematic overhaul, for better or worse. I don’t think WG is capable of changing this game that much without messing up and making it worse. That’s what happened with arty. It’s something that never should have been in the game, but it was, and when they tried to fix it they just made it more annoying and frustrating. Gold ammo is the same situation. It sucks now, but changing it could make it even worse for overall balance and fun.

 

Wot should have only had AP and HE, with every tank having frontal weak spots that could be easily penned, but could also be hidden, emphasizing skill of play and positioning. But that isn’t what we got. So we have to live with it, and hope that it doesn’t get worse. 



heavymetal1967 #2 Posted Dec 16 2018 - 18:47

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View Postbubbleboy264, on Dec 16 2018 - 12:38, said:

So we have to live with it, and hope that it doesn’t get worse. 

 

PLUS ONE!!!

 

Excellent points OP.  And agree totally since we aren't at "the beginning" it wouldn't work without changing tanks, etc...  And given how much work that would involve I don't see them doing it.

 

Then there's the additional and huge (for them) issue of premium tanks.

 

And given their track record on a lot of things I agree about their capability.

 

And while I play arty I totally agree with the comparison regarding arty.  Because to me I think they'd like nothing better than to get out of it.  But it's a rabbit hole they can't climb out of so all they can do is try to adjust it.   And look how that's worked out.



Flarvin #3 Posted Dec 16 2018 - 18:51

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Yes, let’s dumb down WoT to be like WoWS. Three possible ammo types per tank is just too complicated. lol

KingofDragons #4 Posted Dec 16 2018 - 18:55

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No i don't want my heavies to be easily penned by APs.. What's the use of driving a heavy if this can happen to them ?  All heavies have weak points.. What's screwing up the game is +2 / -2 MM where u have to  appease the lowest Tiers and make them able to defend themselves vs +2 vehicles..

 

Dropping the damage on APCR is the right way to go.. Lower Tiers can still defend themselves.. 

 

ALso lets not forget WG's role in this... They need to stop these missions that involve doing massive damage.. What do you expect ? i need to do 8000 k damage you think i'm going to use AP with this tragic RNG ?



leandrojas #5 Posted Dec 16 2018 - 19:10

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Pretty sure is not a issue in WoW cuz the "heavys" have "med kits" wich gives health back. So is not that bad being penned with standar AP. Just saying.

spud_tuber #6 Posted Dec 16 2018 - 19:52

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View PostFlarvin, on Dec 16 2018 - 11:51, said:

Yes, let’s dumb down WoT to be like WoWS. Three possible ammo types per tank is just too complicated. lol

When one of the ammo types is superior to a second type in 99.9%+ of situations(AP vs APCR or APCR vs APCR), adjusting those 2 ammo types to have both advantages and disadvantages is dumbing down the game how?  Stop trolling, start reading and thinking. 



Beepboopbeep_1 #7 Posted Dec 16 2018 - 20:15

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View Postspud_tuber, on Dec 16 2018 - 19:52, said:

When one of the ammo types is superior to a second type in 99.9%+ of situations(AP vs APCR or APCR vs APCR), adjusting those 2 ammo types to have both advantages and disadvantages is dumbing down the game how?  Stop trolling, start reading and thinking. 

Him think? Loool



bubbleboy264 #8 Posted Dec 19 2018 - 23:54

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View PostFlarvin, on Dec 16 2018 - 12:51, said:

Yes, let’s dumb down WoT to be like WoWS. Three possible ammo types per tank is just too complicated. lol

 

Having premium ammo is the real case of dumbing down gameplay.

Finnloch3 #9 Posted Dec 20 2018 - 01:20

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I would love Gold gone, 

people that only use gold, may as well just use an Aimbot! 



_Bagheera_ #10 Posted Dec 20 2018 - 02:06

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IT depends on how bad the damage nerfs are. 25% already is pretty dtrastic especially on tanks that only do ~300 damage or so.

 

 

What I would rather see is a re balancing of weak points and an increase on penetration for standard guns so they can, depending on class reliably penetrate exposed weakpoints, and tone back the gold penetration on higher tier tanks (mid and low tiers arguably do not matter, since most of those tanks lack armor anyway, you are just wasting credits if you are spamming gold at say, a tiger 1) so they arent penning things they shouldn't, like well angled e100 turret faces, ETC. Having tanks balanced around bad penetration is no longer really a good metric anymore, especially if they dont have the mobility to flank. And even if they DO, you cant reliably do it in the current map and armor meta. 

 

If I CAN fire less gold ammo I will. I only load it vs targets I'm having issues with, and remove the penetration fall off with distance, the ranges we fight it really isn't needed and is an artificial mechanic (considering the ranges we fight) that just makes me fire more gold. Increased reliability of standard ammo + Reasonable weak points actually being weak = Less gold needed/fired. 


Edited by _Bagheera_, Dec 20 2018 - 02:07.


_Bagheera_ #11 Posted Dec 20 2018 - 02:09

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View Postspud_tuber, on Dec 16 2018 - 12:52, said:

When one of the ammo types is superior to a second type in 99.9%+ of situations(AP vs APCR or APCR vs APCR), adjusting those 2 ammo types to have both advantages and disadvantages is dumbing down the game how?  Stop trolling, start reading and thinking. 

 

That's not always the case. I actually lost a 6k damage game and a top gun in a Lowe because i was (actually mistakenly) shooting gold at a Tvp T50...the reduced normalization caused it to bounce off his turret...TWICE...ran out of time for the kill shot by the time I realized by literally seconds. I actually juggle ammo quite a bit because of the annoying downsides of premium ammo

xxBigbacon #12 Posted Dec 20 2018 - 02:21

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Armored warfare was like this at first and it was kind of a disaster. HE became somewhat perferred because it always did damage. They eventually made it more like wot.

 

I woukdnt mind he veing kind of lime this again to some extent. As it is with the current state if the game. He on alot ot tanjs is comoletely useless because if you hit semi or heavily armored targets it does nothing. 



RaynorShyne #13 Posted Dec 20 2018 - 02:32

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View PostKingofDragons, on Dec 16 2018 - 11:55, said:

No i don't want my heavies to be easily penned by APs.. What's the use of driving a heavy if this can happen to them ?  All heavies have weak points.. What's screwing up the game is +2 / -2 MM where u have to  appease the lowest Tiers and make them able to defend themselves vs +2 vehicles..

 

Dropping the damage on APCR is the right way to go.. Lower Tiers can still defend themselves.. 

 

ALso lets not forget WG's role in this... They need to stop these missions that involve doing massive damage.. What do you expect ? i need to do 8000 k damage you think i'm going to use AP with this tragic RNG ?

 

No - I think he's saying a light should have 3 x 20mm cannons firing HE to set you on fire......

 

Hell, make it MORE like WoWS...   Give AMX's land torpedo's.....



VooDooKobra #14 Posted Dec 20 2018 - 02:36

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View Postbubbleboy264, on Dec 16 2018 - 10:38, said:

I play both WOT and WOWS, and while I love both, warships ammo system is fundamentally better than tanks. You have 2 ammo types, AP and HE. Both are useful depending on the situation and type of ship, and proper management/use of the 2 types is critical to being successful. It is simple enough for beginners to understand, but complex enough that experienced players can have a much better use out of proper ammo management than newcomers. It is a balanced and overall fair system, with nuances and meta around it (ex. DDs mainly fire HE, BBs mainly fire AP, but both classes should switch types in the right situation). 

 

Compare that to world of tanks, which has premium ammo that changes everything. You almost always fire either AP or gold, and if you can afford it you fire almost all gold, causing a domino effect of increasing armor, pen, power creep, and bad balancing that makes the game worse and less fun. It has pay to win as a fundamental game mechanic. In warships this simply doesn’t exist. There are premium consumables, yes, but they have much less of an effect than gold rounds. In tanks, many vehicles can’t pen higher tier tanks at all frontally, expect if you dab that 2 key. Wows doesn’t have this issue. Any ship can kill any other ship, if given enough time. Bottom tier isn’t a torture session like it is here. Now part of this is due to the differences between ship and tank combat, but premium amp makes it much worse.

 

Premium ammo just shouldn’t have been in the game at all from the beginning. WOWS has it right with ammo, but not tanks. And now the problem is that because gold ammo is so essential to game balance and meta, changing/nerfing it could cause the game balance to break completely, requiring a systematic overhaul, for better or worse. I don’t think WG is capable of changing this game that much without messing up and making it worse. That’s what happened with arty. It’s something that never should have been in the game, but it was, and when they tried to fix it they just made it more annoying and frustrating. Gold ammo is the same situation. It sucks now, but changing it could make it even worse for overall balance and fun.

 

Wot should have only had AP and HE, with every tank having frontal weak spots that could be easily penned, but could also be hidden, emphasizing skill of play and positioning. But that isn’t what we got. So we have to live with it, and hope that it doesn’t get worse. 

 

i disagree, having options for ammo selection is a good thing when done right.  the concept of premium ammo was messed up and tbh having ap and HE for tanks would get boring as heck in a hurry.  also what you are doing is gun sizes that are not derp would have 1 option for ammo and thats it, noone wants to fire HE out of a small caliber gun.   heat and ACPR need to be tactical options having unique strengths and weaknesses

xxBigbacon #15 Posted Dec 20 2018 - 03:12

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View PostRaynorShyne, on Dec 20 2018 - 02:32, said:

 

No - I think he's saying a light should have 3 x 20mm cannons firing HE to set you on fire......

 

Hell, make it MORE like WoWS...   Give AMX's land torpedo's.....

Let them poop anti tank mines 



DivCav #16 Posted Dec 20 2018 - 03:19

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View PostxxBigbacon, on Dec 20 2018 - 02:12, said:

Let them poop anti tank mines 

 

LOL!  You made me snort.    This was good.....

 

And AMx Land torpedoes



Flarvin #17 Posted Dec 20 2018 - 03:41

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View Postspud_tuber, on Dec 16 2018 - 13:52, said:

When one of the ammo types is superior to a second type in 99.9%+ of situations(AP vs APCR or APCR vs APCR), adjusting those 2 ammo types to have both advantages and disadvantages is dumbing down the game how?  Stop trolling, start reading and thinking. 

 

For one, 99.9+% of shots don’t need prem ammo. So that superior 99.9+% is B S. 

 

Second, prem does have disadvantages, cost being the main one. You might not like it, but cost does deter its use. APCR has less normalization and increased pen loss over distance, which both rarely make a difference. 

 

Maybe you should be the one that needs to stop trolling, and start reading and thinking. 



spud_tuber #18 Posted Dec 20 2018 - 03:44

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View Post_Bagheera_, on Dec 19 2018 - 19:09, said:

 

That's not always the case. I actually lost a 6k damage game and a top gun in a Lowe because i was (actually mistakenly) shooting gold at a Tvp T50...the reduced normalization caused it to bounce off his turret...TWICE...ran out of time for the kill shot by the time I realized by literally seconds. I actually juggle ammo quite a bit because of the annoying downsides of premium ammo

Auto bounce angle is the same for both AP and APCR.  In a 2X overmatch situation, both have enough pen to more than exceed the maximum effective armor seen.  For non overmatch situations, a 70° angle of impact, the angle at which normalization provides the largest decrease in effective armor (before 3X overmatch kicks in to prevent ricochet)  the AP only only sees about 7.5% reduction in effective armor seen while APCR provides 20% more pen, therefore the increased APCR pen more than makes up for the decreased normalization.  For the sections of a T50's turret you can 3X overmatch with a 105 gun,  both APCR and AP have enough pen to exceed the effective armor thickness.

 

TL;DR:

If you bounced APCR, you would have bounced AP. 

 

However, I will admit that if you were shooting something else with 35mm nominal armor thickness, then there is a chance APCR will not pen while AP will every time.  APCR will see ~240mm of effective armor with a nearly 90° impact with a minimum pen of ~220mm.  However, hitting at an angle of ~88.5° or less drops the effective armor low enough that APCR is an assured pen as well.  

 

As such, my claim seems pretty valid, especially once you include tanks in which both normal and premium rounds are AP or APCR.  



spud_tuber #19 Posted Dec 20 2018 - 03:54

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View PostFlarvin, on Dec 19 2018 - 20:41, said:

 

For one, 99.9+% of shots don’t need prem ammo. So that superior 99.9+% is B S. 

 

Second, prem does have disadvantages, cost being the main one. You might not like it, but cost does deter its use. APCR has less normalization and increased pen loss over distance, which both rarely make a difference. 

 

Maybe you should be the one that needs to stop trolling, and start reading and thinking. 

Dodging the question I see.

 

Also, not needing that superior performance doesn't mean it isn't still superior.   And if you think the reduced normalization on APCR (or for that matter, the pen loss over distance) are large enough to overcome the larger starting pen of APCR in the vast majority of situations,  well...  as far as cost,  well when credits can be bought using cost as a balance factor is playing into P2W arguments. 



Flarvin #20 Posted Dec 20 2018 - 04:01

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View Postspud_tuber, on Dec 19 2018 - 21:54, said:

Dodging the question I see.

 

Also, not needing that superior performance doesn't mean it isn't still superior.   And if you think the reduced normalization on APCR (or for that matter, the pen loss over distance) are large enough to overcome the larger starting pen of APCR in the vast majority of situations,  well...  as far as cost,  well when credits can be bought using cost as a balance factor is playing into P2W arguments. 

 

Having three options is more complicated than having two. Thought it was kind of obvious. lol

 

Most WoT players do not have luxury of a credit reserve or actual money to run 100% prem ammo. Players that do are the minority. 

 

If both rounds have the same chance to pen and do the same damage, neither is superior to the other. In fact since AP is far cheaper, it is the superior round to use. 






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