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Can we please address the levels of poor RNG/hidden factors put against the better players of WoT

RNG Mercy Reduce Remove

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speedfasteric2 #1 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 04:44

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Firstly, I am aware of the potential for my response to this being biased, selective memory and all that. But hear this out.

 

If a player chooses to use the abilities of their tank to their advantage, should they be rewarded for doing so? I hope you answer yes to this question, and from here I am going to assume you have.

 

In this given battle, I am playing a BatChat 25t with a camo crew and doing my job spotting, there is nothing noteworthy about the first six minutes of the match, however, very close to the 9:00 mark I had an example of what many people would brush off as bad RNG. However, for me it is a common occasion, happening every three or every other match. 

 

In this instance, using logic that the T110E4 would not spot me with a house infront of him, I made my way around to his flank and rear where his lack of situational awareness left me unnoticed. I took advantage of this, help my fire and planned on unloading all five shells into his rear drive wheel for some easy damage. Solid plan, no?

 

So I park my tank roughly 20-30 meters away at a slight angle to the E4 and aim accordingly.First shot I take, for whatever reason decided to phase through the hull of the E4,and bury itself into the ground underneath the E4's opposite track.

 

Linked are two photos merged that show the exact shot as it was taken from two angles.

 

https://i871.photobu...zpswaw0leoe.jpg

 

***

 

Now before I get the whole, "get off the forums, this is just a one time thing" spiel, This isnt an isolated event. I've had spot go through turret hatches in previous matches, I've had kill shots on tanks that are side on that have been calculated by websites like Tanks.gg as 100% chances to pen, bounce or not pen. If anyone is interested, ill go through my replays file to find the example I'm thinking of, involving an AMX ELC bis with the 90mm firing standard AP at a side-on SU-100y.

 

I get that RNG effects everyone and yes, these shots are bound to happen every now and again. But for me, a self-proclaimed better than average player, these feel greatly as if they happen far to often. I can imagine that many players at a similar level and above also feel the same way. I can mention other instances, and Ill do so if asked, but not in this post, as this is getting lengthy as is.



GeorgePreddy #2 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 05:00

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View Postspeedfasteric2, on Jan 02 2019 - 00:44, said:

I get that RNG effects everyone...

 

You made my argument for me.

 

 

 

 

 

 



speedfasteric2 #3 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 05:05

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View PostGeorgePreddy, on Jan 02 2019 - 04:00, said:

 

You made my argument for me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Haha, Very funny, George, But perhaps a non-copy and pasted answer would be beneficial here? I'm asking for proof that what you quoted from me is evenly spread among the better players of the game, as well as the lesser. 

Cpt_Zapp_Brannigan #4 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 05:06

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somebody made the point the other day that players will moan and groan over a ghost shell that obviously went thru a tank without damage dealt, yet say nothing when a shot that is well wide of the mark missing the tank completely counts as a hit.

It's a video game after all. There is a lot of potential for stuff like this to happen. 

 



Christojojo #5 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 05:12

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View Postspeedfasteric2, on Jan 01 2019 - 22:44, said:

edited to save space

***

 

Now before I get the whole, "get off the forums, this is just a one time thing" spiel, This isnt an isolated event. I've had spot go through turret hatches in previous matches, I've had kill shots on tanks that are side on that have been calculated by websites like Tanks.gg as 100% chances to pen, bounce or not pen. If anyone is interested, ill go through my replays file to find the example I'm thinking of, involving an AMX ELC bis with the 90mm firing standard AP at a side-on SU-100y.

 

I get that RNG effects everyone and yes, these shots are bound to happen every now and again. But for me, a self-proclaimed better than average player, these feel greatly as if they happen far to often. I can imagine that many players at a similar level and above also feel the same way. I can mention other instances, and Ill do so if asked, but not in this post, as this is getting lengthy as is.

 

This game is way to RNG reliant. Many a great player has left. FOR me it seems RNG is more in effect than ever. I would love to see this game player skill based and not some rng monster it has become.

NomaeTheJester #6 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 05:15

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Lag. Little red ping indicator is red. You weren't aiming where you thought you were. If you are using Wifi, plug yourself in. If you are already plugged in, accept that this is going to happen. This was not RNG [edited]you over, this was your ISP.

speedfasteric2 #7 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 05:19

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Cpt - I can also give you an example of that happening to me, and yes, I do remember getting away with shots like that happening as a result of me firing at someone else. I'm not here to say I want all the benefits and none of the consequences of the game being more accurate with its hit detection and fair penetrations. What I want to see come out of this post and hopefully into the game is a patch or change to the game that makes hits more reliable for a skilled player. A prime example are the photos I posted, I haven't done anything incorrect, so why am I being punished for it?

 

I would appreciate responses that aren't from a closed mindset of frequent forums visits expecting the same garbage re-posts from whining players.

 

Nomae - The Ping indicator was red throughout the replay, I don.t think that was the reason the shot did what it did.

 

 

 


Azombie8u #8 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 05:29

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95% of the shots I miss is cause I am aimed at only a few pixels of tanks. But I mostly play Td's.  

Po1ar_Gaming #9 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 05:45

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It might be worth looking at bad RNG in general in instances like server miscalculations and general bugs in updates. But sorry OP, I fail to see the argument of how this disproportionally affects good players.

Cpt_Zapp_Brannigan #10 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 05:45

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View Postspeedfasteric2, on Jan 01 2019 - 23:19, said:

Cpt - I can also give you an example of that happening to me, and yes, I do remember getting away with shots like that happening as a result of me firing at someone else. I'm not here to say I want all the benefits and none of the consequences of the game being more accurate with its hit detection and fair penetrations. What I want to see come out of this post and hopefully into the game is a patch or change to the game that makes hits more reliable for a skilled player. A prime example are the photos I posted, I haven't done anything incorrect, so why am I being punished for it?

 

I would appreciate responses that aren't from a closed mindset of frequent forums visits expecting the same garbage re-posts from whining players.

 

Nomae - The Ping indicator was red throughout the replay, I don.t think that was the reason the shot did what it did.

 

 

So you want better RNG for better players? Kinda like wanting higher speed limits for better drivers or faster cars? lmbo

 

Your image shows a ghost shell, nothing more. No punishment for your "high" skill level

Have you got a replay for this game? 

 



enjineer #11 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 06:06

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View PostCpt_Zapp_Brannigan, on Jan 01 2019 - 23:45, said:

So you want better RNG for better players? Kinda like wanting higher speed limits for better drivers or faster cars? lmbo

 

Your image shows a ghost shell, nothing more. No punishment for your "high" skill level

Have you got a replay for this game? 

 

 

I don't think OP is so much asking for better RNG for better players, but rather RNG have less an effect than it does and allow a players skill to dictate the game rather than a dice roll.

Ich_bin_Hass #12 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 08:39

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It's been like this for a long time. Why do you think so many of the so called guud players use mods legal or otherwise to beat the RNG. Before premium ammo went silver, it was standard for those that could spend real money, to SPAM GOLD rounds every battle.  Then those very same guud players, who spammed gold every battle cried RAPE ! When WG's made premium ammo allowed to be bought with creds.  That's when all the mods showed up. Again illegal at first. Then WG's bowed to these unicums and allowed some mods in. IMHO, since these cheaters were using them anyway.

 

  So get use to phantom rounds, Being spotted when it's impossible from all the way across the battle field, with NO direct LoS ! Under tier'd Russian tanks and unfair Match maker



jdub11 #13 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 10:54

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View PostNomaeTheJester, on Jan 02 2019 - 04:15, said:

Lag. Little red ping indicator is red. You weren't aiming where you thought you were. If you are using Wifi, plug yourself in. If you are already plugged in, accept that this is going to happen. This was not RNG [edited]you over, this was your ISP.

Troll



jdub11 #14 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 10:56

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View PostIch_bin_Hass, on Jan 02 2019 - 07:39, said:

It's been like this for a long time. Why do you think so many of the so called guud players use mods legal or otherwise to beat the RNG. Before premium ammo went silver, it was standard for those that could spend real money, to SPAM GOLD rounds every battle.  Then those very same guud players, who spammed gold every battle cried RAPE ! When WG's made premium ammo allowed to be bought with creds.  That's when all the mods showed up. Again illegal at first. Then WG's bowed to these unicums and allowed some mods in. IMHO, since these cheaters were using them anyway.

 

  So get use to phantom rounds, Being spotted when it's impossible from all the way across the battle field, with NO direct LoS ! Under tier'd Russian tanks and unfair Match maker

 

Yes, all good players are cheaters... are you serious?

Pipinghot #15 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 14:17

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View Postspeedfasteric2, on Jan 01 2019 - 22:44, said:

Firstly, I am aware of the potential for my response to this being biased, selective memory and all that. But hear this out.

You may not be having selective memory, but you're definitely having paranoid delusions. RNG affects everyone equally, there's no such thing as "poor RNG/hidden factors put against the better players of WoT". Good players don't get anything different from anyone else. Maybe you had a ghost shell, maybe you didn't, but even if you did it has absolutely nothing to do with whether you're a good player, that's just bonkers.

View Postspeedfasteric2, on Jan 01 2019 - 22:44, said:

very close to the 9:00 mark I had an example of what many people would brush off as bad RNG. However, for me it is a common occasion, happening every three or every other match.
Now you're looking at confirmation bias. There's no way you're having ghost shells more than other people. And currently, there is not any known ghost shell bug in the live game .What that means is that if you are regularly experiencing ghost shells it's because you're having some kind of communication problem between your PC and WG's servers. Could be lag, could be packet loss, can't tell from just a description and a single photo, but if this is happening to you more than other people it has nothing to do with RNG or the game code, and certainly nothing to do with whether you're a good player.

View Postspeedfasteric2, on Jan 01 2019 - 22:44, said:

Linked are two photos merged that show the exact shot as it was taken from two angles.

 

https://i871.photobu...zpswaw0leoe.jpg

Photos, no matter how good, are not useful for discussion like this, it would help your thread if you post a replay instead.

View Postspeedfasteric2, on Jan 01 2019 - 22:44, said:

Now before I get the whole, "get off the forums, this is just a one time thing" spiel, This isnt an isolated event. I've had spot go through turret hatches in previous matches, I've had kill shots on tanks that are side on that have been calculated by websites like Tanks.gg as 100% chances to pen, bounce or not pen. If anyone is interested, ill go through my replays file to find the example I'm thinking of, involving an AMX ELC bis with the 90mm firing standard AP at a side-on SU-100y.

Yes, please, replays are by far the best way to have these discussions.

View Postspeedfasteric2, on Jan 01 2019 - 22:44, said:

I get that RNG effects everyone and yes, these shots are bound to happen every now and again. But for me, a self-proclaimed better than average player, these feel greatly as if they happen far to often. I can imagine that many players at a similar level and above also feel the same way. I can mention other instances, and Ill do so if asked, but not in this post, as this is getting lengthy as is.

Coming back around to the most important point in this thread - there is absolutely nothing different for good players in this game. Everyone, no matter how good or how bad, gets the same RNG, the same amount of good luck and bad luck. You need to shake off this silly idea, it's clouding your judgement.



speedfasteric2 #16 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 16:54

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Po1ar - I never claimed it was set in stone that RNG is indeed in favour of lesser players, rather the occurrence rate of abysmal examples as pictured are quite frankly very common, happening every other game if not every games.

 

Cpt & Enjineer - Enjineer sees what I am trying to express, I'm not looking for favorable RNG, im looking for FAIR RNG. Nor do I claim to have a "high" skill level, please do not twist my words, I claimed to be better than average, not 'unicum' or 'bluenicum'. 

 

As for everyone who is asking for replay examples, here are two linked, the first should be the primary example shown above, the other is the ELC game I mentioned. time stamps are in the titles of each replay.

http://wotreplays.eu...-ch_tillon_25_t

http://wotreplays.eu...a2136a82b7bbacc

 

Should I play matches that give further examples, I will link them as well, should I remember to.

 

***

 

In response to Pipinghot,

 

I am well aware that I can be on the receiving end of good fortune when rolling the RNG dice, I remember one game, driving a KV-2 where I had nothing but the 100mm gun of an O-Ni to aim at while on the move, needless to say it hit his gun and splashed him for the ~100 or so damage required to kill him. 

 

Examples like that I would not hesitate to say shouldn't occur, simply because of the absurdity of the idea. Not only that, but its also of an example of being rewarded for not skillfully playing the game. Granted the KV-2 isn't a skill based tank, but not aiming and only firing in the general direction should not hit regardless of the tank, something done by lesser capable players quite often. You are effectively rewarding poor choices. The reverse is true as well, a player that takes their time, and put thought into their actions, such as re-positioning for an ambush or the like, or aiming specifically for weak-points, are still rewarded, however only at a marginally higher rate when compared. it makes the idea of putting effort and though into action not worth while.

 

How this connect with my main post, is I FEEL - remember this isn't set in stone - I've only noticed a pattern in RNG at my end. When I take my time to aim shells at the respective weak-points of enemy vehicles, or the center of mass that has the highest possible chance of simply hitting, let alone penetrating, I am not rewarded fairly. Vise Versa, when I am bombing around in my BC 25t, taking snap shots from some distance, and find that the majority of my shells not only hit, but pen, it feels wrong. I was then rewarded once more for not playing the game efficiently nor effectively.

 

(Edit was my block of text response to Pipinghot, as well as grammar)


Edited by speedfasteric2, Jan 02 2019 - 17:14.


dunniteowl #17 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 17:29

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View Postspeedfasteric2, on Jan 01 2019 - 22:05, said:

 

Haha, Very funny, George, But perhaps a non-copy and pasted answer would be beneficial here? I'm asking for proof that what you quoted from me is evenly spread among the better players of the game, as well as the lesser. 

 

But, but, but -- he's right, you know.  We all get the same RNG.  So where's the issue, then?

 

We don't need to prove that we all get it.  You need to present evidence that isn't JUST YOU THINKING IT that shows this 'biased' RNG factoring for 'better' players.  I mean, seriously COME ON.

 

Wouldn't 'bad players' actually be experiencing this 'biased' RNG factoring such that it would EXPLAIN why they are 'bad players?'  WG's Secret Encoder Algorithm RNG (think that one through, there's a joke there) EXPLAIN the bad players are not really bad, they just don't have favorable RNG?  And if that were so, then the answer wouldn't be that only 'good' players get this exception to the standard RNG, because it also explains why the bad players are bad players, they're just getting worse RNG.

 

And when you think about it, how does a player who is above the server average get 'blessed' with the 'biased' RNG above and beyond what other players get? How can you possibly show that?  Yes, show it you must, though, to be taken seriously.  If you're doing BETTER, then how can you possibly explicate that, somehow, BECAUSE you are doing better, that somehow RNG is taking a crap on JUST YOU or players JUST LIKE YOU?

 

Think about it.  How does that even logically make any sense?  You're playing better than the average of the server, yet somehow, RNG is MORE UNFAVORABLE TO YOU or Players Like You than it is to players who are playing well below the server average?  Seriously?  Are you actually listening to your own crap?  How is that even possible?  You gotta explain this in more detail, because I would love a good belly laugh.

 

You are playing better then the server average by three percentage points, yet somehow, RNGs got it in for you?  Come on, man, Confirmation Bias and Being Triggered are Factual, Scientifically Validated concepts and yet, somehow, you chose "Magical Thinking" as your go-to resource?

 

OvO

 

I wish I could make my little 'owl's eyes' blink and have question marks spinning inside them.

 

GL, HF & HSYBF!



Copacetic #18 Posted Jan 02 2019 - 23:45

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Maybe use panda stare..ovO on posts like these owl.

dunniteowl #19 Posted Jan 03 2019 - 02:50

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I need a Spock With Raised Eyebrow emoji, I think.

 

OvO



Pipinghot #20 Posted Jan 03 2019 - 05:21

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View Postspeedfasteric2, on Jan 02 2019 - 10:54, said:

In response to Pipinghot,

 

I am well aware that I can be on the receiving end of good fortune when rolling the RNG dice, I remember one game, driving a KV-2 where I had nothing but the 100mm gun of an O-Ni to aim at while on the move, needless to say it hit his gun and splashed him for the ~100 or so damage required to kill him. 

 

Examples like that I would not hesitate to say shouldn't occur, simply because of the absurdity of the idea. Not only that, but its also of an example of being rewarded for not skillfully playing the game. Granted the KV-2 isn't a skill based tank, but not aiming and only firing in the general direction should not hit regardless of the tank, something done by lesser capable players quite often. You are effectively rewarding poor choices. The reverse is true as well, a player that takes their time, and put thought into their actions, such as re-positioning for an ambush or the like, or aiming specifically for weak-points, are still rewarded, however only at a marginally higher rate when compared. it makes the idea of putting effort and though into action not worth while.

I understand your reasons for disliking shot distribution and RNG, and I won't try to convince you that you should like them. This is a purely subjective issue - do you like RNG or not like RNG, and there's no value to either of us in trying to change your opinion.

 

What I will say is that if you want a game that is based purely on skill with no RNG, then you're playing the wrong game. There are bunches of FPS's and other games that are pure skill, they are waiting for people just like you, but WoT will always have random elements in the game play. You have every right to dislike them, but shot dispersion and RNG will not be going away, they are part of the game regardless of your personal feelings for them. If you want to play a game based purely on skill, or even more based on skill, then it's time for you to look for a new game. That's not intended to be argumentative or to "poke you in the eye", it's just simple reality.

View Postspeedfasteric2, on Jan 02 2019 - 10:54, said:

How this connect with my main post, is I FEEL - remember this isn't set in stone - I've only noticed a pattern in RNG at my end. When I take my time to aim shells at the respective weak-points of enemy vehicles, or the center of mass that has the highest possible chance of simply hitting, let alone penetrating, I am not rewarded fairly. Vise Versa, when I am bombing around in my BC 25t, taking snap shots from some distance, and find that the majority of my shells not only hit, but pen, it feels wrong. I was then rewarded once more for not playing the game efficiently nor effectively.

Here's where the real problem occurs. You have to let go of this delusion, it will only lead to more and more bad thinking. Pretty much everyone in the world "FEELS" like RNG works against them, and that's because our brains are really bad at understanding randomness (you can google that topic and see lots of explanations for why). It's completely understandable that you feel that way, because that's how the majority of people feel. But those feelings are incorrect, no matter how strongly you feel them.

 

When you say you've "only noticed a pattern in RNG at my end" that's exactly what confirmation bias is, and it's exactly what you need to guard yourself against, confirmation bias is toxic and poisons your ability to learn the true answers. There are times in life when we should trust our feelings but this is not one of them, sometimes our feelings lie to us because there are things in the world that our feelings don't understand, and RNG is one of those things our feelings lie about. Every player in the game gets the same amount of good luck and bad luck, there is no such thing as extra bad luck for good players, and there is no such thing as the game being coded to make things harder for good players, those are delusions that lead to bad thinking, bad conclusions and bad decision making.

 

If you don't like RNG that's understandable, but you must get rid of any nonsense about the RNG being worse for good players, that kind of garbage is bad for your mind.


Edited by Pipinghot, Jan 03 2019 - 05:25.






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