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Fixing The American Tree


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KampfyKouch #1 Posted Jan 06 2019 - 07:42

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I'm going to start of by saying that I don't expect much if anything to change after making this thread. Its likely that the suggestion box for this game, at least for NA in general, is ignored when it comes to game balance. Nevertheless, after playing since 7.2, there are changes I've wished to be applied to tanks that have gone by the wayside. To put it another way, some tanks have always sucked and some tanks have lately sucked. In this thread, I'm only going to list American tanks and changes that I'd like to see to them. Even with this, expect a wall of text incoming so I will avoid putting premium tanks on here as well, may list other trees later on depending on discussion. As such, this thread is purely opinion and I welcome constructive criticism.

 

Going to start off at tier 4 because I haven't played low tiers in a while and T4 generally is the tipping point of the learning curve for most newbies. If I don't list a tank, its because I don't belive they needed changing or I haven't played as or against the tank enough to comment. Also skipping arties because who cares.

 

----------Tier 4----------

M5 Stuart

-Increase penetration of 37mm T16 AP round to 65, APCR to 95

-Allow manual fire of clip (if that hasn't been changed yet), increase intraclip reload to 1 sec.

Reason: The M5 isn't much different from the M3 Stuart with slightly better stats. An increased penetration will allow the tank to fill a better endgame role. As is, if you're bottom tier as the only tank left on your team against a VK36 or even a KV1, winning is considered impossible.

 

M3 Lee

-Increase accuracy of 75mm M3 gun to 0.36 dispersion.

-Add an addition 20mm of armor around the gun shield.

Reason: The M3 Lee requires a unique playstyle most new players aren't accustomed to. Making it easier to utilize the tank's strengths as a second line support tank would make this tank a little better to grind through.

 

---------Tier 5---------

M10 Wolverine

-Increase penetration of 76mm M1A2 AT gun and all its iterations to 140mm for AP, 190mm for APCR.

Reason: As it is, the M10 is basically just a worse T67 with slightly better view range. However, you can still reach 445 view range on the T67 with skills and equipment, rendering the M10's only advantage moot. Improving the M1A2 gun on the M10 as well as all iterations of the gun on other tanks, will not only make the M10 competitive but also provide a middle ground for all American tanks between the 76mm M1A1 and the 90mm M3 gun.

 

T1 Heavy

-Add 76mm M1A2 gun with improved penetration of 140mm AP and 190mm APCR. 16.67 RPM.

Reason: The T1 Heavy fails in its role as a front line heavy, it is essentially a slower, larger M4. Its armor profile is basically big and flat, making its effective armor the same, if not worse, than that of the M4. Adding the improved M1A2 gun will allow it to provide better fire support against other heavies.

 

M4 Sherman

-Reduce rate of fire of the 105mm M4 howitzer to 4.5 RPM. Reduce depression/elevation to -7/+20

Reason: The state of tier 5 metagame lately has been whoever can mount a 105mm howitzer and shoot it first. For tanks that do not have such guns, T5 is almost unbearable to play. The M4 can reach absurd amounts of DPM, even to 3k with equipment. Even some tier 10s do not have that much DPM. Of course all other medium tanks that can mount a 105 should have the same treatment.

 

M7

-Change the 75mm M3L to an autoloading gun with 3 rounds clip, 2.5 sec inter clip reload, and 12 seconds clip reload.

Reason: Gives a playstyle more in line with the rest of the tree.

 

----------Tier 6----------

T21

-Add an autoloading version of the M1A2L gun with 4 round clip, 2.5 second interclip reload, and 18 second clip.

Reason: Gives a playstyle more in line with the top tiers of the tree.

 

T37

-Add the 105mm M4 Howitzer with 6RPM, -8/+20 dep/elv.

Reason: Gives a playstyle more in line with the rest of the tree.

 

M4A3E2 Jumbo

-Reduce ROF of 105mm M4 howitzer to 5.5 RPM.

-Increase penetration of 76mm M1A2 to 140/190.

-Add 50mm to all around armor of second turret.

Reason: Gives people the opportunity of actually using the second turret.

 

M4A3E8 Easy 8

-Increase penetration of 76mm M1A2 to 140/190

-Increase top speed to 56km/h

-Reduce terrain resistances to all terrain by 0.1.

Reason: Makes the Easy 8 actually competitive with its British counterpart, the Cromwell.

 

M18 Hellcat

-Remove 90mm AT M3 Gun

-Increase 76mm AT M1A2 penetration to 140/190

-Increase tank traverse to 44 deg/sec

-Increase reverse speed to 25km/h

Reason: Make the Hellcat Great Again! But not as OP as it was before and certainly not a better Jackson.

 

----------Tier 7----------

T71 CMCD

-Add 105mm M4 Howitzer at 7RPM, -8/+22 dep/elev.

Reason: Gives a playstyle more similar to the top tiers in the line.

 

T20

-Add a 50-70mm mantlet encompassing the turret face

Reason: The T20 playstyle sits in an uncomfortable position. Unlike the tanks that come before and after it, the T20 can't crest a ridge without being absolutely destroyed. Adding a mantlet where it would look like one should be will allow the T20 to shine on ridge fights.

 

T29

-Increase penetration of 76mm M1A2 gun to 140/190

Reason: Allows for easier stock grind

 

T25/2

-Increase penetration of the 90mm T15E2 gun to 190mm AP

-Add the 90mm M54 (from Scorpion) at 6.5 RPM

Reason: Make the T25/2 actually feel like a TD rather than a crappier Pershing. Gives it the ability to fight tier 9 tanks as well with a slower firing gun from the Scorpion.

 

T25AT

-Increase armor of the front sloped plate to 150mm (increasing its effective armor to 180-190mm)

Reason: Gives the tank similar playstyle to top tiers in its line.

 

----------Tier 8----------

M41 Walker Bulldog

-Add a 120mm Howitzer with 560 HE damage, 65 penetration, -8/20 dep/elev, 6RPM, and 0.45 accuracy.

Reason: Gives the tank a similar playstyle to others in its line.

 

M26 Pershing

-Increase ROF of 90mm T15E2M2 to 9.5 RPM

-Reduce terrain resistances to all terrain by 0.1.

Reason: The M26 used to be the jack of all trades, now its the jack of none. Being practically the worst medium tank in its tier nowadays, a increase to its ROF will allow it to remain competitive to the T-44.

 

T32

-Add the 105mm T15E1M2 gun from the M46 Patton at 4.5 RPM

Reason: The T32 has the unfortunate position of being the stooge in the heavy tank line. Its current gun was adequate at tier T7, but almost unuseable at T8. Giving it the same gun as the M46 allows it to compete with the IS-3 and other tanks of its tier.

 

T28 Prototype

-Increase top speed to 35km/h, reverse speed to 15km/h

Reason: Being the slowest tank in the line is no bueno.

 

----------Tier 9----------

 

T54E1

-Change to heavy tank designation

-Increase HP to 1950

-Reduce top speed to 36km/h, reverse to 15km/h

-Add 40mm to upper front plate, 50mm to frontal turret face

-Reduce reload time of the 105mm T140E2 gun clip to 28 seconds.

Reason: The T54E1 weighs the same, is the same size, has the same horsepower/ton, and has the same crew configuration as the T57 heavy. There would be little reason as to why the T54E1 would be a medium in the first place, as its mediocre mobility means it cannot play in the same tactical niche as the Skoda, the Standard B, or the Batchat in its tier. Instead, the T54E1 is outrun even by the Emil II and the AMX 50 120. These changes will allow it to compete with other heavy autoloaders of its tier, as well as provide a better transition into the T57.

 

M103

-Add 20mm to the entirety of the turret. Everywhere.

Reason: The M103 has an unfortunate profile, its turret is easily the worst of the American heavies tier 7 and above. Its large and can only bounce if above and looking directly at its enemies. The 38mm turret roof can also be easily overmatched by even 120mm guns that it sees frequently in its tier.

 

T30

-Increase turret traverse to 25 deg/sec

-Improve dispersion values on any movement by 0.02

Reason: The T30 handles like a barn when it comes to its gun as it certainly can't hit the broadside of one. Have less fire rate than the T95 already hampers the tank, a gun that misses whenever you sneeze shouldn't be part of the problem.

 

----------Tier 10----------

T110E5

-Increase alpha damage of the main gun to 440.

-Increase top speed to 45km/h

Reason: Allows the T110E5 to compete with other tanks of its tier. With the shifting of the metagame to tanks like the Obj 277 and the Super Conquerer, the T110E5 has lost its place. Even the IS7 is able to outrun the T110E5 and trade better as well.

 

T110E4

-Remove the tank entirely

-Add T58 in its place

-T58 is basically a T57 heavy with a 155mm Autoloading weapon

-155mm Autoloading weapon with 275mm AP penetration, 350mm APCR, and 90mm HE.

-Holds 3 rounds per clip, 5 second intraclip reload, 40 sec clip reload.

-Has the same armor profile as the T57 heavy

-30km/h top speed, 10km/h reverse

-Fully traversing turret with 25deg/sec traverse speed

Reason: The T110E4 is poop. Basically a worse E100 except American.

 

---------------------------------

And that's all folks, a grand waste of time but I got to vent out my frustrations about the American line. If you have any opinions about tanks I didn't list, feel free to add in.


Edited by KampfyKouch, Jan 06 2019 - 22:49.


PrimarchRogalDorn #2 Posted Jan 06 2019 - 10:28

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The T54E1 is based on the M48 hull, so why would it be a heavy?

KampfyKouch #3 Posted Jan 06 2019 - 11:23

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View PostPrimarchRogalDorn, on Jan 06 2019 - 01:28, said:

The T54E1 is based on the M48 hull, so why would it be a heavy?

 

It weighs exactly the same as the T57. If we classified tanks based on what hull they used, the old Batchat 155 55 with the M46 hull would also be considered a medium.

enya1ius #4 Posted Jan 06 2019 - 15:08

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you are trying to "fix" tanks that are completely fine. 

m3 lee has broken dpm, the wolverine is fantastic and a hidden gem, you want to cripple the M4's 105. what about the pz4?, then you wanna give the m7 an autoloader but give the next tank in the line, the t21 a derp gun claiming continuity, the t37 is fine and leads up the single shot line(tanks dont need to be clones), the jumbo is fine as is, you get the choice of view range or armor on the turret, e8 is fine as the crommie cant mount a vstab, Hellcat.... how about no., t71c is fine as is and doesnt lead to a derp line as both the t49 and sheridan are more efficient with the smaller caliber guns. t20 is fine, t29 is still overperforming(it doesn't an easier stock grind. people can just think before they go up a line),  t25/2 can use some love with pen but its aimtime and overall mobility make it mostly fine, t25at.... idt you know how thickness and angling work, again the bulldog is fine and it doesnt lead to a derp line, pershing could use a little tuning so thats spot on, t32 just needs the gold round from the chrysler, prot seems fine, t54e1 is fine as is and teaches you how to support(which is what you need to do in the 57), the m103 is great, the t30 would be massively op with those changes, e5 needs love but i would pref removing the tumor and other minor tweaks, e4.... how about no. 

 

some of these tanks need alittle love, but your solutions seem to be trying to cram the tanks into play styles already filled. especially since most are doing fine in there current role. 



KampfyKouch #5 Posted Jan 06 2019 - 22:45

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View Postenya1ius, on Jan 06 2019 - 06:08, said:

you are trying to "fix" tanks that are completely fine. 

m3 lee has broken dpm, the wolverine is fantastic and a hidden gem, you want to cripple the M4's 105. what about the pz4?, then you wanna give the m7 an autoloader but give the next tank in the line, the t21 a derp gun claiming continuity, the t37 is fine and leads up the single shot line(tanks dont need to be clones), the jumbo is fine as is, you get the choice of view range or armor on the turret, e8 is fine as the crommie cant mount a vstab, Hellcat.... how about no., t71c is fine as is and doesnt lead to a derp line as both the t49 and sheridan are more efficient with the smaller caliber guns. t20 is fine, t29 is still overperforming(it doesn't an easier stock grind. people can just think before they go up a line),  t25/2 can use some love with pen but its aimtime and overall mobility make it mostly fine, t25at.... idt you know how thickness and angling work, again the bulldog is fine and it doesnt lead to a derp line, pershing could use a little tuning so thats spot on, t32 just needs the gold round from the chrysler, prot seems fine, t54e1 is fine as is and teaches you how to support(which is what you need to do in the 57), the m103 is great, the t30 would be massively op with those changes, e5 needs love but i would pref removing the tumor and other minor tweaks, e4.... how about no. 

 

some of these tanks need alittle love, but your solutions seem to be trying to cram the tanks into play styles already filled. especially since most are doing fine in there current role. 

 

I seem to have mixed up the T21 and the T37 with their respective places in the tree, my apologies. However, I'm not trying to cram playstyles into anything, but provide more options to players who wish to practice said playstyles in a particular line. For example, if I wanted to practice a particular playstyle in the autoloading tree, starting out early in the M7. I'm asking for easier transitioning between tanks in the tree.

 

As for what you've said, I'd like to talk about each point:

 

1. Yes the Lee's DPM is incredible on paper, but that doesn't mean you're able to use it. Chances are, when a player gets to the Lee, they'll have 200 battles under their belt and a 50% crew with no equipment. The Lee already has poor dispersion and accuracy so taking return fire while in the support role is likely due to its poor speed and base camo. Adding armor around the gun will allow newbies more flexibility on where they position their tank.

 

2. I'm not saying the Wolverine is bad, I'm saying the T67 is better. Why play one line when the other line has better tanks and lead into both top tiers?

 

4. I want to cripple all 105mm howitzers in tier 5. It would be disingenuous of me not to ask for that much. Right now though I'm just listing changes I'd like to see in the American tree.

 

3. Again, I mixed up the T37 and the T21 on their positions, so that was my mistake. I will change their fixes to to reflect that.

 

4. I will admit the Jumbo is fine, though I'd like to see people use it with a 76mm more often rather than be a one trick pony with the 105mm.

 

5. Being the only tank that can mount a Vert Stab doesn't make you "good". The E8 performs just "okay" in the metagame as its stats are "okay" at best. I'm asking that its role as a flanker/support tank be buffed to match the likes of the Cromwell and the T-34-85.

 

6. The Hellcat definitely needs to be what it used to be. Just not with the 90mm. If you want to play it as a stationary tank in the back line, its fine, but some of us remember what it used to be like.

 

7. Again, I'm asking that there'd be the option to play tanks like the T71C, M41, and the T37 as derp tanks. I'm not asking to remove their single shot variants entirely, but to allow people the option to practice certain playstyles before they reach tier 9.

 

8.I will admit, the T20 doesn't really need the changes since its performance is pretty good on the server. But the fact that the turret has a place for a mantlet and not having one just irks me.

 

9. I won't deny that the T29 is overperforming at its top configuring, I still have it in my garage. But people who go up the Sherman line and moving over to the heavy line shouldn't be punished as hard for it, nor should I be punished for it when they end up in my team.

 

10.The T25/2 does need the pen, nobody's denying it. It just plays like a slower T20 with awful turret traverse and doesn't feel like a TD at all, which is unfortunate.

 

11. The T25 AT has no armor, not sure how you would angle it to even have a chance to bounce anything of the same tier. At 89 millimeters of armor angled at best to be 135mm effective, you'd be hard pressed to bounce anything short of a tier 5 or tanks with the 76mm. I've never heard of the T25 AT being an armored beast.

 

12. The T32 shouldn't rely on a gold round to be good. In fact any tank that needs to rely on gold to be good isn't a good tank.

 

13. The T54E1 sits very close to the bottom of the Winrate pool, beating out only the BC25t and the WZ-120. The tank, for some reason, has the same armor profile if not worse than the T69 when fighting the same tiers. At the same time it has the same mobility as the T57, being the same weight and HP/ton. You're likely going to be outrun by heavy tanks such as the AMX 50 120 or the Emil II, which perform the same type of job as the T54E1, but better due to more flexibility.

 

14. The M103 sits at the bottom of the winrate scale. It's not that good.

 

15. Having played the T30, better dispersion and turret traverse would definitely make the tank playable. It's not anywhere close to being an overperformer and its turret armor at T9 is nothing to write home about.

 

16. Removing the T110E5's tumor would make it absolutely bonkers. Like top of the meta, better than Super Conquerer bonkers. While it would be nice if the tumor was gone, that would make it too OP. The T110E5 was always the heavium playstyle, where it used to be the faster choice when choosing between the IS7 and the german heavies. Giving it the same DPM as the SConq and more mobility gives it a better middle ground between the other tanks of its tier.

 

17. I've researched the E4, but I don't ever see any reason to buy it when I have the E3. The tank is awful and the only ways to buff it (like to the armor or the gun) would make it a better E3.



PrimarchRogalDorn #6 Posted Jan 09 2019 - 16:21

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View PostKampfyKouch, on Jan 06 2019 - 05:23, said:

 

It weighs exactly the same as the T57. If we classified tanks based on what hull they used, the old Batchat 155 55 with the M46 hull would also be considered a medium.

Allow me to clarify what I meant. The T54E1 was designed as a medium tank, and uses a medium tank hull as a basis. As such, it is classified as a medium in the game. The Batchat 155 55 with the M47 hull was designed to be self propelled artillery. Just because it had an M47 hull does not mean it's a medium tank. By your logic, since both the IS and IS-3 are similar in weight to the Panther, they should be the designated as mediums since the Panther is a medium.



maxman1 #7 Posted Jan 09 2019 - 23:03

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View PostKampfyKouch, on Jan 06 2019 - 16:45, said:

9. I won't deny that the T29 is overperforming at its top configuring, I still have it in my garage. But people who go up the Sherman line and moving over to the heavy line shouldn't be punished as hard for it, nor should I be punished for it when they end up in my team.

 

Yes. Yes they should. Even a cursory glance at the tech tree will show the game guides you towards researching it from the M6 instead of the M4A3E2. It is 13,000 XP cheaper and you can research the M3 90mm before the T29.

 

Going through the M4A3E2 and depriving yourself of the 90mm is your own fault.



maxman1 #8 Posted Jan 12 2019 - 00:18

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Personally, I think the T30 should be a heavy tank again and the T57 should be researchable from the M103.

 

And maybe the T32 should be a premium tank and the T34 a regular tank. Or maybe not.



BashirTheTrainMaster #9 Posted Jan 12 2019 - 01:18

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I desire H3 with 175 mm gun and E4 turns into a reward tank.




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