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German Tier 6 to 8 Heavy tanks, Heavy TD, medium tank Problem in This current meta.

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AdamTheWolf55 #1 Posted Jan 07 2019 - 18:36

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Okay so the German tanks in this current meta is a big problem the German Panther tanks suck balls cause weak paper armour, The Tiger 1 and King Tiger need a rebalance like don't make them heavy camping tanks or just give them camo and let them snipe or something. the German Heavy TD line ok so Jagpanther armour is well angeled the problem is 80mm of frontal is not enough to bounce few guns the max armour when its using its 8- gun the armour lvl is only 145 to 150 witch is very bad for a Tier 7 Heavy TD the Tier 8 how ever needs a hull armour buff same goes to Tier 9 jagtiger.

 

idk but for me this tree line really needs a buff or rebalancing Im liking that WG is fixing the E 100 and Leo 



Byracki #2 Posted Jan 07 2019 - 18:39

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It is simple - bad tanks get played badly - then wg sees this and adjusts them

Qualm #3 Posted Jan 07 2019 - 19:20

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Periodically I go through the German tech tree wondering whether there's a reasonable permanent home there for my highly skilled German medium and heavy crews.  So far the answer has always been No.  

 

If I ever finish the Maus tree grind, maybe the Maus.  And if I ever start the horrific E50 module grind, maybe... nah. 

 

 



SteelRonin #4 Posted Jan 07 2019 - 19:31

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WG gives a **** about german tanks, they don't care. They added them into the game because they knew they were popular and the game needed players to start. But they will never buff them or make them equal to soviet tanks. The E25 must be a pain in the *** for them, because they have not found a soviet tank better than that.

 

German tanks are food for soviet tanks in this game, nothing more, it is intentional. But they forgot something, the Tiger 1 is still in the front of the official WoT image..



LeaveIT2Beaver #5 Posted Jan 07 2019 - 19:36

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"Skorp G" :playing:

164thLeichteAfrikaDiv #6 Posted Jan 07 2019 - 19:59

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The Tiger 131 performs quite well at Tier 6 (where the Tiger 1 should be), but it's a premium. The VK36 also can perform quite well at Tier 6. If you can avoid the first shot by a KV2 you can out DPM it with the waffe gun. Otherwise yes the German heavies need a lot of help going up the line albeit the Tier 9's are workable. As SteelRonin mentioned before WG doesn't care about German tanks, although lot's of players and guys with expendable income do.

The_Iron_Bullet #7 Posted Jan 07 2019 - 20:12

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WT auf E100

Avalon304 #8 Posted Jan 07 2019 - 20:44

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Tiger I is fine. Tiger II isnt the best tier 8 heavy, but its very adequate if played well, even at close range.

RC_1140 #9 Posted Jan 07 2019 - 20:50

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Funny thing about a lot of German tanks is they take a certain amount of skill to play well. 

Silverleaf_Nightraven #10 Posted Jan 07 2019 - 22:31

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German tier 6 is fairly decent actually. But it where any form of balance for the tech tree ends. I tend to play German units as I hit the point ingame where I hate to start new grinds. The biggest problem for the tiers you mentioned is that many of the tanks in those tiers are one tier too high. Panther, Panther II, Tiger II and also the unarmored TD line have this issue. I commented in one thread how to fix the TD line but I here goes. 

    TD line: Remove the toaster as it is a poorly implemented AA unit and drop the whole line down one tier. Maybe some minor adjustments will be needed but using the RMH-Borsig as an example you will see that it actually matches the SU-152 fairly evenly. Minus armor and speed of course. The new tier 10 is an old tier 10 removed due to WG saying it was too good to be ingame as it was German. That is the WT. auf E-100. All the power creeps actually balanced this TD out. 

    MT line: This line is has a simple fix. Add a better gun to tier the Panther and Panther II. Seriously, the 75 mm main gun at tier 7 and 8 is a joke. Even the 75.L/100 still has only 135 pen. Up the damage some. I have not played the Panther II but on paper it seems to suffer less from the gun issue when compared to same tiered Mediums. What they both do lack is traverse speeds in both the turret and tracks. These tiers just flat out underpreform when compared to same tiered units. 

    HT line: This is simple. Tier 7 and  8 are both just one tier too high. The E-75 is great. it took me a long time to figure it out though. E-100 will be an XP pinata though when I get it. Flat armor and just press "2" for the pen anywhere. Anyway, back to tiers 7-8. The Tiger I needs buffed when looking at it or drop it a Tier. Buffing the traverse speed for the turret and tracks of the Tiger I as well as the armor (very weak for a Tier 7 heavy) would make it better and hopefully keep it from being the sniper it is now ingame. The Tiger II is just a POS at tier 8 so drop the Tiger II down to tier 7 and set the research tree up like the KV-1 and KV-1S research. You still have to go through the Tiger I and Tiger II to get the new unit, whatever that is, at tier 8. But that tank would an actual tank that should be at tier 8. Otherwise WG needs to buff the the Tiger II massively. Not the add 1 degree of turret traverse and say they did their job but a real rework. Or they could buff a new model of the VK 45.03, the actual Tiger III, and call it the VK. 45.03b or just Tiger III and add it into the researchable tech tree but leave the current premium alone. Unless they plan on buffing it. :) A defense in dropping the Tiger II down to tier 7 is in WGs on "historical" previews of units. The French AMX M4 75 states it used design features of the Tiger II. Basically it is a Tiger II just one tier lower.

    Just a couple thoughts on the topic. But as already stated WG hates the German lines. So do not expect any real work on these tech trees. On a side note. Has anyone ever gotten the G.W. Tiger P to go over 20KPH? Without driving it over a cliff. Speed says 35 KPH but I have yet to see it go past 20 KPH in the best level road conditions.



SteelRonin #11 Posted Jan 07 2019 - 22:41

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Btw, this thread won't reach more than page 2 because we are not discussing the tanks that everyone loves, we are not talking about the OP soviet tanks that we want to nerf, we are not touching the favorite tanks of the special players WG cares about.......

 

I have seen tons of threads about balancing the german tanks and guess what, they all have been forgotten in the second day.... and not even talking about this server has 0 weight in WGs feedback requests...



TheseViolentDelights #12 Posted Jan 07 2019 - 23:02

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Russians have entire lines that are good from start to finish. German tanks are more hit & miss.

 

 

German tier VI mediums are all terrific. StuG III is terrific. Luchs is hilarious. Tiger I is very good, as is Tiger 131. Skorpion G is OP.



Avalon304 #13 Posted Jan 07 2019 - 23:21

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View PostSilverleaf_Nightraven, on Jan 07 2019 - 14:31, said:

 

    HT line: This is simple. Tier 7 and  8 are both just one tier too high. The E-75 is great. it took me a long time to figure it out though. E-100 will be an XP pinata though when I get it. Flat armor and just press "2" for the pen anywhere. Anyway, back to tiers 7-8. The Tiger I needs buffed when looking at it or drop it a Tier. Buffing the traverse speed for the turret and tracks of the Tiger I as well as the armor (very weak for a Tier 7 heavy) would make it better and hopefully keep it from being the sniper it is now ingame. The Tiger II is just a POS at tier 8 so drop the Tiger II down to tier 7 and set the research tree up like the KV-1 and KV-1S research. You still have to go through the Tiger I and Tiger II to get the new unit, whatever that is, at tier 8. But that tank would an actual tank that should be at tier 8. Otherwise WG needs to buff the the Tiger II massively. Not the add 1 degree of turret traverse and say they did their job but a real rework. Or they could buff a new model of the VK 45.03, the actual Tiger III, and call it the VK. 45.03b or just Tiger III and add it into the researchable tech tree but leave the current premium alone. Unless they plan on buffing it. :) A defense in dropping the Tiger II down to tier 7 is in WGs on "historical" previews of units. The French AMX M4 75 states it used design features of the Tiger II. Basically it is a Tiger II just one tier lower.

 

 

Both of the Tigers are ok where they are. The Tiger I is probably the 2nd best heavy tank at tier 7 (behind only the T29) and is more than capable of shooting its way out of just about any situation due to its amazing DPM.

 

The Tiger II, while not anywhere close to the best tier 8 heavy is pretty adequate for a tier 8 heavy tank. Its gun is great, and it can work its armor if you know what youre doing. Its biggest downside is its lack of acceleration. Also using the M4 45 as a template for anything is a terrible idea, because the M4 45 is one of the worst tier 7 heavy tanks.

 

The Panther, with the l/100 7,5cm gun has 198mm of penetration, which at tier 7, is actually pretty good for a medium. I actually think, across all tier 7 mediums the Panther has the highest standard penetration at tier and 135 damage isnt far off of many of the other small gunned tier 7 mediums. Even its base DPM of just a little over 2k is pretty ok for tier.

 

The Panther II at tier 8 is a little more worse off, but the 8,8cm l/100 has great penetration and middle of the pack DPM. Its adequate.

 

Also... no, reintroducing the WT E 100 is not a good idea. It is, in fact, a terrible idea.



Pepino1976 #14 Posted Jan 07 2019 - 23:26

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German tanks I like and think are good. Only listing ones I played, not imagined.

Blue and bold are premiums.

 

Lights:

T IV - Pz 38 (t) na

T IV - Luchs

T V - VK 16.02 Leopard

T VIII - M 41 90

 

Mediums:

T VI- VK 30.02 (M)

T VII - Panther/M10

T VIII - Mutz

T IX - E 50

 

Heavies:

T VI - Tiger 131

T VII - Tiger I

T VIII - Lowe

T IX - E 75

 

TDs:

T IV - Marder 38T

T V - StuG III Ausf G

T VI - Jpanzer IV

T VI - Nashorn

T VII - Jpanther

T VII - E 25

T VIII - Ferdinand

T VIII - RHM

T VIII - Skorpion G

T IX - Jtiger

 

SPGs:

T VII - G.W. Panther



tanopasman62 #15 Posted Jan 08 2019 - 00:23

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Tier 6-8 is mostly fine, VK 30.01 P about one of the best tier 6 meds, 30.02 M is also good, The Tiger 131 is excellent where it is.

 

As for tier 7 the Jagdpanther is okay, not as good as the T25 AT but it's an overall solid TD, Tiger I is also good. people just watched too much NatGeo and believes it should be a Type 5 Heavy, perhaps they could give it a little more speed and give Tiger P the same DPM.

 

As for tier 8 you should quit drugs, the Jagdpanther II is an excellent TD with the same gun as the rofl OP Skorpion G (Which is also German btw), the Tiger II though... yeah, it's so bad it makes the KV-4 look good by comparison.



Crimson_Saber #16 Posted Jan 08 2019 - 00:27

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View PostSteelRonin, on Jan 07 2019 - 15:41, said:

Btw, this thread won't reach more than page 2 because we are not discussing the tanks that everyone loves, we are not talking about the OP soviet tanks that we want to nerf, we are not touching the favorite tanks of the special players WG cares about.......

 

I have seen tons of threads about balancing the german tanks and guess what, they all have been forgotten in the second day.... and not even talking about this server has 0 weight in WGs feedback requests...

 

That's what irks me, everyone cries about the Type, and it's derp gun among other derptastic tanks. I play them because of the over abundant crap of Russian tanks in this game whom seem to have super heavy levels of armor with no flat sides, the speed of medium tanks, and ridiculous alpha damage guns even on their scouts. Even their light tanks are stupidly over armored LT-432 anyone? And they have the nerve to whine about derp when it's one of the only few counter measures to consistently give a Russian tank player pause. Against any other tank except a derp the russian tank player is cocky, confident his big alpha damage gun, and stupid armor will save him he only has to really worry about arty in those situations, and the biggest of TD guns.

 

Oh but what about view range, and accuracy those are the Krytonite to the Russian tanks line yes? You could argue that yes except the majority of maps are corridor maps which caters to once again Russian tank meta. Which was more blatant with the Su-130 being released which is essentially a Russian Skorpion-G. The IS-M, and it's line which are essentially better rear turreted tanks compared to the German heavy ones. So if WG won't balance Germany then I will blatantly, and gladly play my derps, and use gold rounds every chance I get in every tank I own to kill Russian tanks because that's how WG has made this meta. And I know they will do the same back to me.


Edited by Crimson_Saber, Jan 08 2019 - 00:29.


SteelRonin #17 Posted Jan 08 2019 - 13:25

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View PostCrimson_Saber, on Jan 07 2019 - 20:27, said:

 

That's what irks me, everyone cries about the Type, and it's derp gun among other derptastic tanks. I play them because of the over abundant crap of Russian tanks in this game whom seem to have super heavy levels of armor with no flat sides, the speed of medium tanks, and ridiculous alpha damage guns even on their scouts. Even their light tanks are stupidly over armored LT-432 anyone? And they have the nerve to whine about derp when it's one of the only few counter measures to consistently give a Russian tank player pause. Against any other tank except a derp the russian tank player is cocky, confident his big alpha damage gun, and stupid armor will save him he only has to really worry about arty in those situations, and the biggest of TD guns.

 

Oh but what about view range, and accuracy those are the Krytonite to the Russian tanks line yes? You could argue that yes except the majority of maps are corridor maps which caters to once again Russian tank meta. Which was more blatant with the Su-130 being released which is essentially a Russian Skorpion-G. The IS-M, and it's line which are essentially better rear turreted tanks compared to the German heavy ones. So if WG won't balance Germany then I will blatantly, and gladly play my derps, and use gold rounds every chance I get in every tank I own to kill Russian tanks because that's how WG has made this meta. And I know they will do the same back to me.

 

well, I agree with you ;)

Trauglodyte #18 Posted Jan 08 2019 - 16:17

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View PostAdamTheWolf55, on Jan 07 2019 - 18:36, said:

Okay so the German tanks in this current meta is a big problem the German Panther tanks suck balls cause weak paper armour, The Tiger 1 and King Tiger need a rebalance like don't make them heavy camping tanks or just give them camo and let them snipe or something. the German Heavy TD line ok so Jagpanther armour is well angeled the problem is 80mm of frontal is not enough to bounce few guns the max armour when its using its 8- gun the armour lvl is only 145 to 150 witch is very bad for a Tier 7 Heavy TD the Tier 8 how ever needs a hull armour buff same goes to Tier 9 jagtiger.

 

idk but for me this tree line really needs a buff or rebalancing Im liking that WG is fixing the E 100 and Leo 

 

You couldn't be more wrong.  You've got to play German tanks with a higher level of skill and understanding that you're playing a tank whose design tech is probably 10-15 years older than everything else that you're going to see.  But, tier 6 is really the sweet spot for the German line.  Tier 7 is where the power starts to degrade.  I'll still take my Panther against any other tier 7 medium but every other tank at that tier starts to wear thin against its peers - so much of that is from nerfs from 4+ years ago and the additions of newer tanks and tank lines that have power creeped all of the older tanks.  The German nation, being an original line, simply has seen the game age better.  The Tiger II is, in actuality, a great tank but its potential is saddled by buffed and new tanks added to the tier, the stupidity of the template system that constantly puts it at the bottom, crappy map designs (how do you play mid-range when each map is designed with a quarter line saddle that is lower than the mid-point and back lines?), and an engine nerf back in 8.8 that gutted the power ratio of it and the rest of the tree.

 

Tier 6

 

The VK 28.01 needs some love, since it lost its 105 derp, but it is a solid Light and is only really overshadowed by the AMX 12 T (auto-loader) and the Type 64 and T-50-2 (both broken premium Lights).

 

The VK 30.01 D is a beast and the VK 30.02 M is a very similar beast, albeit slightly slower.  The VK 30.01 P is arguably much better than both of those, though the 88 mm short means that you've got to play a little closer but it is a German Cromwell with a bigger gun at the expense of some zig-zag capabilities.  Pure beast modes for all three.

 

The Tiger 131 is a great tank, albeit a premium, and does a great job of handling and bullying other tier 6 heavies - it is STILL not a heavy tank and should be played as a mid-ranged turreted TD.  The VK 36.01 is a monstrously awesome tank that too many people crap on for the reason that they see "heavy" and play it as such, only to fail.  The top end 75 mm is a DPM machine gun and the 88 short gives it some punch and hide capabilities.  Again, as with pretty much all German heavies  until tier 9, you sit at the mid-range and take advantage of people being stupid.

 

Dicker Max is a derpy tank that will often frustrate users, since so many shots push wide or into the dirt.  But, utilizing -15 degrees of gun depression is just super mean.  The Jagdpanzer IV is a DPM dream and a much slower though near equal of the E 25.  And, while many people don't like it, the Nashorn will just bulldoze people.

 

Hummel = life!

 

Tier 7

 

SP 1C is garbage.

 

The Panther is a god tank that excels at the edge of brawling range - people REALLY need to stop underestimating this tank.  Yes, it is big but it is German so what did you expect?  Panther/M10 is just a premium MM version of the Panther without the joy of auto-premium ammo (less pen).  The VK 30.02 is a medium brawling god with extreme speed but it does rely heavily on premium ammo.

 

Tiger P sucks.  Tiger 1 is a good tank whose tech holds it back and a community that continuously plays it incorrectly - AGAIN, it is NOT a heavy tank but is a mid-range turreted TD with stupid amounts of DPM.  Sadly, the VK 45.03 is just pure gabage.

 

E 25 is what it is.  The Sturer Emil is a slower Dicker Max with a god gun that is super comfortable to play if you actually play it to support - too many people camp in bushes with the St. Emil and they pay the price for it.  I haven't played the WK WT or the Jadgpanther yet.

 

GW Panther is a marshmallow throwing turd of a tank that is only good because of a wide gun arc.  It died when they pulled the 175 mm from it but it is WAY too easy to see and the gun cover makes for a counter-battery player's wet dream.


Edited by Trauglodyte, Jan 08 2019 - 16:24.


MI_LAD #19 Posted Jan 09 2019 - 01:40

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just finished the panther 1 with 95 games 42.11 wr and a 1193 wn8 - its definitely a tank for people that like a challenge 

Edited by northlife, Jan 09 2019 - 01:48.


Leader_H #20 Posted Jan 09 2019 - 03:48

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tried the VK3001P and it was surprisingly good even with very bad crews. It is fast and hard-hitting once fully upgraded, trades shots really well and can bounce an occasional shot. Though I'll agree that tanks like Tiger II are really sad in most maps.




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