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German Tier 6 to 8 Heavy tanks, Heavy TD, medium tank Problem in This current meta.

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Trauglodyte #41 Posted Jan 11 2019 - 17:37

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View Post21Blackjack, on Jan 10 2019 - 15:16, said:

 

Remember second line and support tanks?  I don't hear about them anymore.  Whens the last time someone in a organized match say "hey we need a second line support tank"  probably got laughed out of the chatroom.

 

 

I'm not saying that Germany should be a second line tank nation.  What I'm saying is that, because Germany hasn't been updated in years, sans some small benefits given to the Tiger I and lower tier "equals", the bulk of the line is suffering from power creep syndrome.  Patch 8.8 REALLY hurt the line, since all of the tanks lost a great deal of engine power.  In turn, it means that the more lightly armored German tanks, given that they have less angles than their peers, move to spots slower AND take more damage.

 

I honestly think that the Lowe mantlet would go a long way to helping the German heavy tanks.  Given that the bulk of the pens go through the turret face, adding an additional layer of defense there would make things very beneficial, along with the reversal of the 8.8 engine nerf.



SteelRonin #42 Posted Jan 11 2019 - 18:34

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Congrats, we reached page 3, even when there are some posts saying that the german tanks are perfectly fine....

Niteroi #43 Posted Jan 11 2019 - 19:00

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German tanks whose special traits were accuracy and decent pen, but low alpha have suffered from global nerfs to accuracy and pen over distance more than other nations. Why?  German tanks have worse soft stats. Soviet tanks have bigger blooms but often shoot down the middle of the bloom cone. Not so for German tanks who will pepper the outside edges of the reticle unless fully aimed and motionless. The loss of pen over distance on AP and APCR hurt snipers more than brawlers. Also, nerfing stats that are one nation’s strengths will hurt more than when they are already another nation’s weakness. German tanks never really got compensatory buffs for what was globally nerfed and they fell behind.

Trauglodyte #44 Posted Jan 11 2019 - 20:18

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View PostSteelRonin, on Jan 11 2019 - 18:34, said:

Congrats, we reached page 3, even when there are some posts saying that the german tanks are perfectly fine....

 

Let me ask you, then, what you consider fine.  Looking at your stats, Germany definitely wasn't your first nation played in this game or you're a reroll OR you're just a tank god among ants - I don't judge, in any regard.  So, there you are with blue and purple wn8 stats on almost every tank in the German nation, yet you're saying that the German tanks aren't fine.  I don't disagree with you, just to put that out there.  But, in what context are you saying that German tanks are bad when you've done nothing but amazing in almost all of them?

 

The tree needs help.  Soft stat bloom on turret rotation should get a massive buff, turret faces are WAY too weak, and the engine nerf needs to be reversed (for the most part).  From there, a lot of the tanks just need some help with how they're supposed to be played, since same tier peer tanks don't adequately play differently thus offering different enjoyable means of playing the tank:

 

- Pz IV vs Pz III/IV; this can't come down to derp vs. 75

- Tiger I vs Tiger P

- VK 45.02 A vs Tiger II and both versus all other peer tanks

 

So on and so on.  Anyway, the issue isn't so much that German is lagging behind.  The issue is how do you fix it?  There is a big difference between complaining and providing alternative solutions to the issues.  Just saying.



SteelRonin #45 Posted Jan 11 2019 - 21:03

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View PostTrauglodyte, on Jan 11 2019 - 16:18, said:

 

Let me ask you, then, what you consider fine.  Looking at your stats, Germany definitely wasn't your first nation played in this game or you're a reroll OR you're just a tank god among ants - I don't judge, in any regard.  So, there you are with blue and purple wn8 stats on almost every tank in the German nation, yet you're saying that the German tanks aren't fine.  I don't disagree with you, just to put that out there.  But, in what context are you saying that German tanks are bad when you've done nothing but amazing in almost all of them?

 

The tree needs help.  Soft stat bloom on turret rotation should get a massive buff, turret faces are WAY too weak, and the engine nerf needs to be reversed (for the most part).  From there, a lot of the tanks just need some help with how they're supposed to be played, since same tier peer tanks don't adequately play differently thus offering different enjoyable means of playing the tank:

 

- Pz IV vs Pz III/IV; this can't come down to derp vs. 75

- Tiger I vs Tiger P

- VK 45.02 A vs Tiger II and both versus all other peer tanks

 

So on and so on.  Anyway, the issue isn't so much that German is lagging behind.  The issue is how do you fix it?  There is a big difference between complaining and providing alternative solutions to the issues.  Just saying.

 

First of all, I can't be a reroll because I started back in 2010, unless you consider that starting from 0 in 2011 when the game officially launched and reseted the beta accounts is a kind of reroll, well, I don't know what to say then...

 

I started with Germany back in beta, but I was learning the game meanwhile so I thought I was not learning enough.....Back in beta stage there were Soviet and German tanks only and I knew something about german tanks because Company of Heroes 1 game, but I knew nothing about soviet tanks, and while I was playing like crap with my PzIIIA, the enemy T-46 was better, and then the T-28, and then the KV.....and every time an ISU with its huge gun appeared in a game....dayum bro, everyone feared it. So, I started with soviet TDs to learn more about them.

 

But at some point I wanted to return to my beloved german tanks and to unlock the legendary Tiger at last. And I inmediately noticed the difficulty by playing with them, and as the game was evolving while I was playing my german tanks, the powercreep was even more noticeable. I never understood why the PaK 43 gun damage is so low, while the soviet tanks have 390 average in all their 122 mm guns. Then I realized my stats are a reflection of my soviet era, and they are inflated somehow, but at least I understood how to play the game.

 

I 100% believe this game is soviet biased, back in 2012 I understood completely the game and the bias was already notorious and I didn't have german tanks back in then. But the peak of this "revolution" happened when I bought the IS-6 for the campaign missions (I am not a HT player, but I wanted the StuGIV), and in the battle number 7-8, I can't remember, with the crew at 52%, I finished first, with Ace Tanker by moving to the middle of the central square in Sigfried Line and no one could penetrate me, and I pointed and clicked for a win........that was a huge wth!!!, unbelievable, in the borderline of stupidity, How can be possible for a non HT player with 52% crew win that kind of battle?....the answer was: the tank, as simple as that. And of course, I can't do that with an historical german tank.

 

The fact that the reward by playing a german tank like a boss is the same as playing a soviet tank like a [edited]pisses me off...

 

How can I fix this?, to be fair, by balancing all the tanks, not only the german ones. But as I stated before, the historical german tanks are overtiered, they need to move them one tier down and to remove their top unhistorical gun. But sadly, I also believe WG will never buff the powercreeped german tanks, and with that mentallity, you can't solve an issue, because they are the issue..

 

btw, I am not good with german tanks, not at least with this new MM 3-5-7 and whatever, I was better before that. Now I can't use my beloved Tiger II in random battles, but I can use it in Frontline mode :D

 

PD: is not hard to have good stat if almost the entire server plays badly...



Trauglodyte #46 Posted Jan 12 2019 - 00:21

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Ronin,

 

I didn't even think to look at your account date - duh me! - but I wasn't calling you a reroll, if you thought that.  Those stats are damned nice, though.

 

I think that a lot can be done to help the German tech tree that doesn't require a lot of work.  Firming up the turret faces and giving the tanks their old power-to-weight is a big first step.  DPM can be adjusted later.  As to fixing the armor issues on the historical tanks, I'd ask you this:  are you more inclined to accept added armor, in the form of something like the Panther/M10 added spaced armor, or a slightly steeper slope to buff the historically accurate thickness?



madogthefirst #47 Posted Jan 12 2019 - 06:17

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They are fine, get good.

madogthefirst #48 Posted Jan 12 2019 - 06:27

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View PostDerJager, on Jan 09 2019 - 14:03, said:

Tier 7:

Tiger I gets the 105mm L/52

Go home you're drunk.



Crimson_Saber #49 Posted Jan 12 2019 - 07:51

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View Postmadogthefirst, on Jan 11 2019 - 23:17, said:

They are fine, get good.

 

They're not fine, lame response is lame.

Firemoth #50 Posted Jan 12 2019 - 10:06

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View PostSteelRonin, on Jan 12 2019 - 06:03, said:

 

How can I fix this?, to be fair, by balancing all the tanks, not only the german ones. But as I stated before, the historical german tanks are overtiered, they need to move them one tier down and to remove their top unhistorical gun. But sadly, I also believe WG will never buff the powercreeped german tanks, and with that mentallity, you can't solve an issue, because they are the issue..

i think downtiering germans doesnt fix the problem. it might help with the tiger/tiger2, but it does nothing for the panther (vkm is a panther with slightly less armour, how do you downtier panther 2 when its already hot garbage) and messes both TD branches completely (JP at tier 6 with the long88 makes the nashorn completely irrelevant. ferdi with long88 at tier 7 is a downgrade on the JP. what happens to the JP2? what tank connects to the JT? do you downtier to 8 with its historical gun, then what fills tier 9. where does the JPZ4 move to?)

 

it would probably be alot easier to just boost their DPM by 10-15%, so that they have the DPM advantage over peekaboo alpha tanks and not having to take 30+ seconds of sitting in the open to 'catch up' on the initial alpha in damage



madogthefirst #51 Posted Jan 12 2019 - 18:23

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View PostCrimson_Saber, on Jan 11 2019 - 22:51, said:

They're not fine, lame response is lame.

I actively play most of them they are fine, get good.



Deputy276 #52 Posted Jan 12 2019 - 19:28

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So there really is no need for further posts. Unless you have never cracked open a history book, you should know by now that German tanks in a RUSSIAN tank game are never gonna be "as good as" Russian tanks. Newsflash, but the Russkies are still smarting from WW2, and had to be dragged kicking and screaming into allowing the re-unification of Germany. Even now, they keep a close and watchful eye on Germany. So all this pissing and moaning and begging and cajoling for Wargaming to update/improve the German line is falling not on deaf ears, but on NO ears. WG has heard this song and dance thousands of times before. Sorry Charlie...ain't gonna happen. You may see some tiny increases here and there "for balance", but the vast majority of German tanks are gonna stay just where they are. 

 

For the guy who said "The E75 and perhaps E50 are the closest tanks they have to being solidly top notch. The E75 has a good enough armor profile that it can cover most of the weak spots in most situations (and the community is dumb enough to be generally ignorant of the one that physically can't be hidden while firing), yet retains enough weak spots and shortcomings that they can't really nerf it much without it being a blatantly racist "we don't like German stuff" move."

Let me introduce you to a rarely seen tier 9 Russian TD called the Object 263. My first time out in it with everything stock, using stock AP ammo, I quickly disintegrated an E75. Fact is, the E75 has been power-crept like every other older tank.

 


Edited by Deputy276, Jan 12 2019 - 19:29.


SteelRonin #53 Posted Jan 14 2019 - 14:35

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View PostTrauglodyte, on Jan 11 2019 - 20:21, said:

Ronin,

 

I didn't even think to look at your account date - duh me! - but I wasn't calling you a reroll, if you thought that.  Those stats are damned nice, though.

 

I think that a lot can be done to help the German tech tree that doesn't require a lot of work.  Firming up the turret faces and giving the tanks their old power-to-weight is a big first step.  DPM can be adjusted later.  As to fixing the armor issues on the historical tanks, I'd ask you this:  are you more inclined to accept added armor, in the form of something like the Panther/M10 added spaced armor, or a slightly steeper slope to buff the historically accurate thickness?

 

Trauglodyte,

 

Sorry for the delay in the answer, I couldn't be able to connect during weekend.

 

I am inclined for historical content. I won't like an unhistorical buff. I like these tanks due the history behind them, so I would gladly accept historical buff.

 

View PostFiremoth, on Jan 12 2019 - 06:06, said:

i think downtiering germans doesnt fix the problem. it might help with the tiger/tiger2, but it does nothing for the panther (vkm is a panther with slightly less armour, how do you downtier panther 2 when its already hot garbage) and messes both TD branches completely (JP at tier 6 with the long88 makes the nashorn completely irrelevant. ferdi with long88 at tier 7 is a downgrade on the JP. what happens to the JP2? what tank connects to the JT? do you downtier to 8 with its historical gun, then what fills tier 9. where does the JPZ4 move to?)

 

it would probably be alot easier to just boost their DPM by 10-15%, so that they have the DPM advantage over peekaboo alpha tanks and not having to take 30+ seconds of sitting in the open to 'catch up' on the initial alpha in damage

 

Let me clarify.

 

I will speak about historical tanks, I won't speak about VK4200 ausf A or VK100.01p.

 

Tiger 1 should be tier 6, Tiger 131 proved that the tank works better in that tier. Tiger II should be tier 7. The problems with the German tanks are 2, no armor and low alpha. The armor issue can be fixed a bit by moving the tank 1 tier below, and DPM.....I won't increase the RoF, I would increase the DPM by increasing the alpha damage.........the PaK 43 dealing 240 damage is a joke......that gun should deal 280-300 damage per shot.

 

The Panther should be tier 6, the VKm can be removed or be a premium tank...The Panther 2.....and the Panther 8.8....I don't know about these ones as they are unhistorical. I don't how to fix them, maybe moving the Panther 2 to tier 7, but the Panther already is bad at tier 7, Panther 2 at that tier won't be much different.

 

Jagdpanther can stay at Tier 7, with a buff to the PaK 43, the unhistorical 105 would be pointless. I would improve the camo of it. The Ferdinand should be a tier 6, historically speaking, the Ferdinand was first than the Jagpanther, even the Elefant was first, so, there is no reason to have it after the jagdpanther in the tech tree. Its top gun should be the PaK 43 like the Nashorn, and we can have 2 alternatives at tier 6, one fast with no armor, and one slow with a lot of armor.

 

The Jagdtiger should be tier 8 with PaK 44 as top gun.

 

The gaps?....I don't know, I don't have a book with blueprints to tell you which tank should fill the gap or which shouldn't.

 

Generally speaking, moving some tanks one tier down can fix the armor issue and adding more alpha damage for some guns can make them more suitable to the current meta.



teamoldmill #54 Posted Jan 14 2019 - 14:51

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These tanks are not fine. They have, as a group, held some of the lowest win rates of all tanks in the game for years. Nobody, and I mean nobody pulls these tanks out to club in platoon like other nations' tanks. You do not see unicorns running around in a platoon of Tiger IIs, Tigers, Panthers, 3601s, JP IVs, Emils, JPs, Indiens, or Ferdinands, and for a good reason. They tanks absolutely suck at everything. Anyone saying otherwise is just being silly because they are in their 70% win rate Defenders or such. There are two tanks worth playing at all from T6 through 9 in the German line up, the Scorp and the E-75. Two. So when you see G, or H, or Otter, Or Beaver clans running around punching everyone's face in with Tiger IIs, post some screens please.

 

I mean, they just made the IS-3 an auto loader..... hahahhahhaa....

 

Panther 88 sums up Germany as a whole. Medium tank with a larger camo profile than the Ferdi, last or near last in win rate of ALL tanks in game since inception. No armor, crap gun, no speed... but heh, it has 17 more DPM than some other tank so, there. Ha.

 


Edited by teamoldmill, Jan 14 2019 - 14:53.


AdamTheWolf55 #55 Posted Jan 14 2019 - 18:26

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View PostByracki, on Jan 07 2019 - 17:39, said:

It is simple - bad tanks get played badly - then wg sees this and adjusts them

 

I mean yeah but alot of ppl still don't know how the Tiger 1 and King Tiger works 

AdamTheWolf55 #56 Posted Jan 14 2019 - 18:29

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View PostSteelRonin, on Jan 07 2019 - 18:31, said:

WG gives a **** about german tanks, they don't care. They added them into the game because they knew they were popular and the game needed players to start. But they will never buff them or make them equal to soviet tanks. The E25 must be a pain in the *** for them, because they have not found a soviet tank better than that.

 

German tanks are food for soviet tanks in this game, nothing more, it is intentional. But they forgot something, the Tiger 1 is still in the front of the official WoT image..

 

i 100% argee what you just said man. Wargaming needs to stop making there Commie tanks getting buffed 

AdamTheWolf55 #57 Posted Jan 14 2019 - 18:42

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View PostSilverleaf_Nightraven, on Jan 07 2019 - 21:31, said:

German tier 6 is fairly decent actually. But it where any form of balance for the tech tree ends. I tend to play German units as I hit the point ingame where I hate to start new grinds. The biggest problem for the tiers you mentioned is that many of the tanks in those tiers are one tier too high. Panther, Panther II, Tiger II and also the unarmored TD line have this issue. I commented in one thread how to fix the TD line but I here goes. 

    TD line: Remove the toaster as it is a poorly implemented AA unit and drop the whole line down one tier. Maybe some minor adjustments will be needed but using the RMH-Borsig as an example you will see that it actually matches the SU-152 fairly evenly. Minus armor and speed of course. The new tier 10 is an old tier 10 removed due to WG saying it was too good to be ingame as it was German. That is the WT. auf E-100. All the power creeps actually balanced this TD out. 

    MT line: This line is has a simple fix. Add a better gun to tier the Panther and Panther II. Seriously, the 75 mm main gun at tier 7 and 8 is a joke. Even the 75.L/100 still has only 135 pen. Up the damage some. I have not played the Panther II but on paper it seems to suffer less from the gun issue when compared to same tiered Mediums. What they both do lack is traverse speeds in both the turret and tracks. These tiers just flat out underpreform when compared to same tiered units. 

    HT line: This is simple. Tier 7 and  8 are both just one tier too high. The E-75 is great. it took me a long time to figure it out though. E-100 will be an XP pinata though when I get it. Flat armor and just press "2" for the pen anywhere. Anyway, back to tiers 7-8. The Tiger I needs buffed when looking at it or drop it a Tier. Buffing the traverse speed for the turret and tracks of the Tiger I as well as the armor (very weak for a Tier 7 heavy) would make it better and hopefully keep it from being the sniper it is now ingame. The Tiger II is just a POS at tier 8 so drop the Tiger II down to tier 7 and set the research tree up like the KV-1 and KV-1S research. You still have to go through the Tiger I and Tiger II to get the new unit, whatever that is, at tier 8. But that tank would an actual tank that should be at tier 8. Otherwise WG needs to buff the the Tiger II massively. Not the add 1 degree of turret traverse and say they did their job but a real rework. Or they could buff a new model of the VK 45.03, the actual Tiger III, and call it the VK. 45.03b or just Tiger III and add it into the researchable tech tree but leave the current premium alone. Unless they plan on buffing it. :) A defense in dropping the Tiger II down to tier 7 is in WGs on "historical" previews of units. The French AMX M4 75 states it used design features of the Tiger II. Basically it is a Tiger II just one tier lower.

    Just a couple thoughts on the topic. But as already stated WG hates the German lines. So do not expect any real work on these tech trees. On a side note. Has anyone ever gotten the G.W. Tiger P to go over 20KPH? Without driving it over a cliff. Speed says 35 KPH but I have yet to see it go past 20 KPH in the best level road conditions.

 

bro what you just said here is amazing i would love if Wargaming just listen to us not be a Russian Power creep. 

Tho im liking the Tiger 2 drop tier to 7 the tier 8 would be a E-75 Standardpanzer then we got a problem for Tier 9 Wargaming got to make a tank up or somthing for the Tier 9 Heavy tank.



AdamTheWolf55 #58 Posted Jan 14 2019 - 18:59

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View PostTrauglodyte, on Jan 08 2019 - 15:17, said:

 

You couldn't be more wrong.  You've got to play German tanks with a higher level of skill and understanding that you're playing a tank whose design tech is probably 10-15 years older than everything else that you're going to see.  But, tier 6 is really the sweet spot for the German line.  Tier 7 is where the power starts to degrade.  I'll still take my Panther against any other tier 7 medium but every other tank at that tier starts to wear thin against its peers - so much of that is from nerfs from 4+ years ago and the additions of newer tanks and tank lines that have power creeped all of the older tanks.  The German nation, being an original line, simply has seen the game age better.  The Tiger II is, in actuality, a great tank but its potential is saddled by buffed and new tanks added to the tier, the stupidity of the template system that constantly puts it at the bottom, crappy map designs (how do you play mid-range when each map is designed with a quarter line saddle that is lower than the mid-point and back lines?), and an engine nerf back in 8.8 that gutted the power ratio of it and the rest of the tree.

 

Tier 6

 

The VK 28.01 needs some love, since it lost its 105 derp, but it is a solid Light and is only really overshadowed by the AMX 12 T (auto-loader) and the Type 64 and T-50-2 (both broken premium Lights).

 

The VK 30.01 D is a beast and the VK 30.02 M is a very similar beast, albeit slightly slower.  The VK 30.01 P is arguably much better than both of those, though the 88 mm short means that you've got to play a little closer but it is a German Cromwell with a bigger gun at the expense of some zig-zag capabilities.  Pure beast modes for all three.

 

The Tiger 131 is a great tank, albeit a premium, and does a great job of handling and bullying other tier 6 heavies - it is STILL not a heavy tank and should be played as a mid-ranged turreted TD.  The VK 36.01 is a monstrously awesome tank that too many people crap on for the reason that they see "heavy" and play it as such, only to fail.  The top end 75 mm is a DPM machine gun and the 88 short gives it some punch and hide capabilities.  Again, as with pretty much all German heavies  until tier 9, you sit at the mid-range and take advantage of people being stupid.

 

Dicker Max is a derpy tank that will often frustrate users, since so many shots push wide or into the dirt.  But, utilizing -15 degrees of gun depression is just super mean.  The Jagdpanzer IV is a DPM dream and a much slower though near equal of the E 25.  And, while many people don't like it, the Nashorn will just bulldoze people.

 

Hummel = life!

 

Tier 7

 

SP 1C is garbage.

 

The Panther is a god tank that excels at the edge of brawling range - people REALLY need to stop underestimating this tank.  Yes, it is big but it is German so what did you expect?  Panther/M10 is just a premium MM version of the Panther without the joy of auto-premium ammo (less pen).  The VK 30.02 is a medium brawling god with extreme speed but it does rely heavily on premium ammo.

 

Tiger P sucks.  Tiger 1 is a good tank whose tech holds it back and a community that continuously plays it incorrectly - AGAIN, it is NOT a heavy tank but is a mid-range turreted TD with stupid amounts of DPM.  Sadly, the VK 45.03 is just pure gabage.

 

E 25 is what it is.  The Sturer Emil is a slower Dicker Max with a god gun that is super comfortable to play if you actually play it to support - too many people camp in bushes with the St. Emil and they pay the price for it.  I haven't played the WK WT or the Jadgpanther yet.

 

GW Panther is a marshmallow throwing turd of a tank that is only good because of a wide gun arc.  It died when they pulled the 175 mm from it but it is WAY too easy to see and the gun cover makes for a counter-battery player's wet dream.

i think you did not understand me. the answer to this topic is about armour not fire power i have only listed armoured tanks not 0mm of armour tanks. the problem with Panther tanks is that the frontal hull is weak 85 mm of top plate wile lower plate is 50 witch can get over matched no mater how angled your tank with your top plate it will still get panned. same goes with Panther 2.  The King Tiger has a mega problem with its frontal hull and top plate of its head witch is only 40mm of armour the IS tanks or 122 guns can over match the roof top i have played the king tiger for 306 battles and 46% win rate because i cant carry on a tank that keeps getting pen by 122 guns. 

AdamTheWolf55 #59 Posted Jan 14 2019 - 19:09

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View PostSteelRonin, on Jan 11 2019 - 17:34, said:

Congrats, we reached page 3, even when there are some posts saying that the german tanks are perfectly fine....

 

they say that because they love playing Russian over powered tanks :3

AdamTheWolf55 #60 Posted Jan 14 2019 - 19:12

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View PostTrauglodyte, on Jan 11 2019 - 23:21, said:

Ronin,

 

I didn't even think to look at your account date - duh me! - but I wasn't calling you a reroll, if you thought that.  Those stats are damned nice, though.

 

I think that a lot can be done to help the German tech tree that doesn't require a lot of work.  Firming up the turret faces and giving the tanks their old power-to-weight is a big first step.  DPM can be adjusted later.  As to fixing the armor issues on the historical tanks, I'd ask you this:  are you more inclined to accept added armor, in the form of something like the Panther/M10 added spaced armor, or a slightly steeper slope to buff the historically accurate thickness?

the space armour on Panther/M10 farely weak only 5mm of none thinkcness maybe 10 or 15 of space armour would do ?






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