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Why is Round Penetration Dropoff Over Distance so Small?

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RickEdwards #1 Posted Feb 03 2019 - 21:23

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So, obviously the maps in this game are so small that in real life the penetration drop-off from distance would be so small it is unnoticeable (which it basically is in game), but things like view range would also be a lot larger; it makes no sense to me that one mechanic is changed so much and the other is so small it might as well not exist.

 

Realistically, in this game, 500 or so meters is the longest you generally shoot at (also,the dropoff is linear so it decreases the same amount every meter past 100 m; under that there is no reduction).

 

So lets talk the numbers: in tier ten tanks, shell dropoff for medium tank standard APCR is generally less than 5% over 500 m; heavy tank AP is around 7 or 8% or so, depending on the tank. TD AP rounds are also generally below 5% over 500 m.

 

Now for premium APCR, as many people state penetration dropoff over distance as a downside of this APCR: somewhat few tanks at tier 10 actually have premium APCR, but they all seem to behave basically the same. Lets look at the S. Conq.'s APCR: Penetration loss over 500 m is about 8.5%; compared to it's AP, which is 7.7%. As you can see, the difference is rather small; in fact, the distance that this APCR's penetration drops below that of the AP is 1,950 m. From one corner of a grand battle map to the opposite one is a bit less than 1,980 m, so, at ALL ranges that you will be shooting at in this game, premium APCR is more effective than AP.

 

There are some outliers in this, however, and those are light tanks, which have around 20-25% dropoff over 500 m. This is a bit much in my opinion; I would say penetration should have between 15-20% dropoff. HEAT rounds are an obvious problem though, and should either also have the dropoff (yes, I know that isn't realistic) or just simply have their penetration reduced.



F1O1 #2 Posted Feb 03 2019 - 21:51

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Pen drop off is not distinguished between AP and APCR. lt has always been a lie basically, that someone founded,  and spread as a rumour of balance. Wargaming has basically aribrarily set drop off to how they like it.  Some APCR penetration drop off is next to null. Some APCR dwindles fast. Some AP drop is next to null, some AP dwindles fast. The point is, it is not a reliable way of describing ammunition types at all, there are way more than just outliers that go against the grain.

 

Generally, in a sense of balancing, APCR would be considered a 'faster' ammunition type. Very few examples of APCR that travel slower than basic ammunition, except for some swedish vehicles, but they also have APCR as basic ammunition too. Patriot has same shell speeds. l do not know how shell speed drop off is over 100-250-500, WG has not released that yet. HEAT would be considered a slower ammunition type, although you would be surprised with wierdos like RU251, 59-Patton, Kanone panzer, M5 Scorpion, T69  -  tanks that actually fire HEAT ammunition with quicker velocity.  

 

The point of it all, don't think of APCR pen drop off as a downside. lt has been one of those really negative and downright lies spread as a rumour, far before the time of tankviewer/tanks gg. Some AP drops off slow, some quick. Pretty much exactly the same deal with APCR

 



X32Wright #3 Posted Feb 03 2019 - 22:06

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All of it is basically guess and arbitrary to make this game work.  Why? Because there is no 'media participation' to use computer graphics parlance meaning the interaction does not account for air, water vapor,particulate and temperature variance etc that actually affects real world ballistics.   There are however generalized basics that can be assumed and accepted like caliber size and weight issue that depic relatively accurate ballistics but the absence of 'media participation' could throw things awry hence the basic variable implementations.  Heck things are not even computed in 3D by nature of the existing game engine but rather in 2D polygons/triangles using collision detection and bounding boxes etc. This is true not just for WOT but for all games due to the nature of current game engines. We are not even talking about the LOD (level of detail) issue.

Edited by X32Wright, Feb 03 2019 - 22:10.


RickEdwards #4 Posted Feb 03 2019 - 22:18

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View PostF1O1, on Feb 03 2019 - 21:51, said:

Pen drop off is not distinguished between AP and APCR. lt has always been a lie basically, that someone founded,  and spread as a rumour of balance. Wargaming has basically aribrarily set drop off to how they like it.  Some APCR penetration drop off is next to null. Some APCR dwindles fast. Some AP drop is next to null, some AP dwindles fast. The point is, it is not a reliable way of describing ammunition types at all, there are way more than just outliers that go against the grain.

 

Generally, in a sense of balancing, APCR would be considered a 'faster' ammunition type. Very few examples of APCR that travel slower than basic ammunition, except for some swedish vehicles, but they also have APCR as basic ammunition too. Patriot has same shell speeds. l do not know how shell speed drop off is over 100-250-500, WG has not released that yet. HEAT would be considered a slower ammunition type, although you would be surprised with wierdos like RU251, 59-Patton, Kanone panzer, M5 Scorpion, T69  -  tanks that actually fire HEAT ammunition with quicker velocity.  

 

The point of it all, don't think of APCR pen drop off as a downside. lt has been one of those really negative and downright lies spread as a rumour, far before the time of tankviewer/tanks gg. Some AP drops off slow, some quick. Pretty much exactly the same deal with APCR

 

 

No, it's premium APCR that has a higher dropoff percentage over distance. That is actually true. It seems more based on tank class rather than shell type for standard rounds, with all classes but LTs having rather insignificant amounts of it. As for speed dropoff, they honestly probably didn't bother putting it in.

 

View PostX32Wright, on Feb 03 2019 - 22:06, said:

All of it is basically guess and arbitrary to make this game work.  Why? Because there is no 'media participation' to use computer graphics parlance meaning the interaction does not account for air, water vapor,particulate and temperature variance etc that actually affects real world ballistics.   There are however generalized basics that can be assumed and accepted like caliber size and weight issue that depic relatively accurate ballistics but the absence of 'media participation' could throw things awry hence the basic variable implementations.  Heck things are not even computed in 3D by nature of the existing game engine but rather in 2D polygons/triangles using collision detection and bounding boxes etc. This is true not just for WOT but for all games due to the nature of current game engines. We are not even talking about the LOD (level of detail) issue.

 

I don't think you understand; penetration dropoff is a thing that someone, somewhere programmed into the game; changing is would take a very short amount of time; I'm just wondering why they even bothered putting it in when the amounts don't actually affect gameplay.

64sherman #5 Posted Feb 08 2019 - 00:49

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Because the maps are tiny.  

RickEdwards #6 Posted Feb 09 2019 - 03:07

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View Post64sherman, on Feb 08 2019 - 00:49, said:

Because the maps are tiny.  

 

Uhhh, that's an argument for why the drop-off should be more...

pepe_trueno #7 Posted Feb 09 2019 - 06:44

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pen drop is for the most part tied to caliber and gun tier, lower tiers or sub 45mm have huge pen drop over distance, higher tiers and big guns tend to have lower pen loss.

 

would be nice if WG used the same formula for all guns or at least narrow the gap, lower tier guns need lower pen drop over distance and higher tiers  guns need higher pen drop over distance. 

 

 

 


RC_1140 #8 Posted Feb 09 2019 - 07:14

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Oddly enough the drop off isn't the same for all tanks of one type. And some tanks like t10 lights have huge drop off, EBR as well. EBR goes from 190 to 160. Some tanks lose 10mm of pen and others 50+. It's interesting to see how it varies.

RickEdwards #9 Posted Feb 09 2019 - 23:16

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View PostRC_1140, on Feb 09 2019 - 07:14, said:

Oddly enough the drop off isn't the same for all tanks of one type. And some tanks like t10 lights have huge drop off, EBR as well. EBR goes from 190 to 160. Some tanks lose 10mm of pen and others 50+. It's interesting to see how it varies.

 

Yeah, it seems like the only tanks that do have it in significant amounts are ones with already low pen; look at a TD and it loses like less than 5% over 500 m, and it does not even matter for TDs cause TDs have ridiculous pen anyways.

64sherman #10 Posted Feb 18 2019 - 23:55

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View PostRickEdwards, on Feb 08 2019 - 20:07, said:

 

Uhhh, that's an argument for why the drop-off should be more...

...  

If the map is tiny that means the shell has to travel a shorter distance... yes?

are you with me so far? 

so... if the shell is traveling a shorter distance than it has less time to slow down and... drop off... 

 

Do I need to go slower for you or do you think you understand now?  



RickEdwards #11 Posted Feb 21 2019 - 16:37

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View Post64sherman, on Feb 18 2019 - 23:55, said:

...  

If the map is tiny that means the shell has to travel a shorter distance... yes?

are you with me so far? 

so... if the shell is traveling a shorter distance than it has less time to slow down and... drop off... 

 

Do I need to go slower for you or do you think you understand now?  

 

I am talking about the rate of fall-off being too small, which in turn leads to the total amount of pen drop at distance being negligible. As in, why bother even programming it in if it is so small it makes no effective difference?

 

Do you understand now? Can you're minimal amount of brain cells keep up without overheating?



Mikosah #12 Posted Feb 21 2019 - 18:58

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The simplest explanation is that if typical combat distances in WoT weren't so ridiculously close, then pen dropoff would have much greater tactical implications. Some other food for thought is that some time ago they ran a sandbox test with the pen dropoff greatly increased. And it was hated because the already short combat range got even shorter, unless that is you abused the system by using HEAT or HE, which have no penalty for range.

RickEdwards #13 Posted Feb 22 2019 - 05:40

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View PostMikosah, on Feb 21 2019 - 18:58, said:

The simplest explanation is that if typical combat distances in WoT weren't so ridiculously close, then pen dropoff would have much greater tactical implications. Some other food for thought is that some time ago they ran a sandbox test with the pen dropoff greatly increased. And it was hated because the already short combat range got even shorter, unless that is you abused the system by using HEAT or HE, which have no penalty for range.

 

The HEAT thing was entirely why that was an complete failure; given the option between "learn new playstyle" and "keep same playstyle but press 2 (which many people already do anyways)," people obviously are going to pick the second option. Also, lets say they doubled the max draw distance and made maps larger; pen drop off would still generally be only around 10% at 1000 m, which is an amount that would still be greatly overshadowed by rng and it's +/- 25%.





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