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Where is the fun in this game?


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Cmdr_Adama_BSG75 #41 Posted Feb 05 2019 - 19:51

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Well, the OP in this thread is, or was, a fellow clanmate of mine. He rage quit the clan last night, after messing up in a skirmish and the caller calling him out for it. A few words were exchanged, and in the end he bailed. I wish he wouldn't have done that. We all make mistakes, especially in the heat of battle. And the caller probably could have been a bit more diplomatic about it, but I could tell he was getting frustrated also. I guess the bottom line is, don't take it so seriously that you get mad. Theres going to be a winner, and a loser in every match, you cannot win them all, and some nights, you can't seem to win any of them. Other nights, things will go your way. 

BadTiger62 #42 Posted Feb 07 2019 - 06:31

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Ok so here are some stats - obviously you think you know me because it took you forever to learn the game and climb the tiers - Im still learning but I dont need to go back and play tier IV-VI with the rest of the baby seal clubbers.

The random team still lost 3 - 15  that's not me - thats not poor playing or bad attitude on my part - you cant say I didnt try. This game has some major flaws with matchmaking and you all know it - youre just too damn afraid to say it in the forums. You have just accepted it as part of the game. Dont tell me what I need to do or what tiers I need to play - I got that part. Its this that we have no control over and yes, I can damage and kill tier 10s but if your team is mismatched youre gonna lose no matter what you do. I dont need to win all the time, but if you are new and you lose all the time will you stick around - probably not. That is all Im saying. 



Pipinghot #43 Posted Feb 07 2019 - 17:58

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View PostBadTiger62, on Feb 07 2019 - 00:31, said:

Ok so here are some stats - obviously you think you know me because it took you forever to learn the game and climb the tiers - Im still learning but I dont need to go back and play tier IV-VI with the rest of the baby seal clubbers.

 

The random team still lost 3 - 15  that's not me - thats not poor playing or bad attitude on my part - you cant say I didnt try. This game has some major flaws with matchmaking and you all know it - youre just too damn afraid to say it in the forums. You have just accepted it as part of the game. Dont tell me what I need to do or what tiers I need to play - I got that part. Its this that we have no control over and yes, I can damage and kill tier 10s but if your team is mismatched youre gonna lose no matter what you do. I dont need to win all the time, but if you are new and you lose all the time will you stick around - probably not. That is all Im saying. 

Matchmaking does currently have some flaws, especially for Tier 8 and Tier 6 tanks, but they're not the flaws you think they are. I'm not trying to insult you, I'm not trolling you, I'm not trying to make you feel bad in any way at all. I'm going to give you some advice that's intended to help you, if you choose to ignore that advice that's fine, it won't hurt my feelings, but it will hurt your ability to enjoy this game. You have a lot to learn about WoT, you can chose to learn it and enjoy the game more, or ignore it and hate the game (and probably rage quit). Everything here is intended to help you understand the game better and enjoy it more.

 

1) You posted screen shots from a single battle, that means nothing. Having one good game doesn't tell you, or us, anything about how well you understand the game. This is especially true for a losing battle. Any good player can tell you that it's easy to farm damage on a loss if you happen to be in a good spot. There's nothing surprising or unusual about having a high damage game on a loss, that's easy to do even for the most noob players.


Sample size matters, if you want to measure your progress and your current skill level do not use one battle, or 10 battles, or 25 battles as your measurement. The smallest number of battles that can tell you anything useful is about 100, and even that is often not enough. If you compare your 'current 100 battles' to your 'previous 100 battles' you might get some useful information but, again, even then maybe not. Do not fall into the trap of over analyzing each battle, or each day, or even each week, that's not how you get better.

 

You cannot post a few screen shots and say, "See, the game is broken!!!!". All that proves is that you don't understand the game.

 

2) Yes, we do know you. We know you because we've all been there. We've all felt your pain. We all know what it's like to be new and frustrated. We all know what it's like to get smacked around without understanding why we can't do better. We know what it's like to have about 3,000 battles and think, "I have a lot of experience, I should be doing better than this." We also know that you don't realize just how much there is that you don't understand about the game, in other words you don't know what you don't know, but we do.

 

WoT is not like other games, you don't get up to the top tiers and then learn how to be good, that is a recipe for disaster. In WoT, you need to spend sometime at every tier, each tier teaches you new lessons, each tier has new skills to understand and master, and each tier builds on the knowledge you should have gained from the previous tier. If you're not good at Tier 4 you're not going to be good at Tier 8 or Tier 10, it doesn't work that way. This is usually described as "rushing up the tiers", there is no benefit to you in playing higher tiers before you're ready. There are actually a few people who have done it that way, but it's very few, and you have to be able to take a lot of beatings at higher tiers if that's the way you want to learn.

 

You really do need to go back and player lower tiers until you're better at them.

Tier 1 - 1 battle

Tier 2 - 30 battles

Tier 3 - 100 battles

Tier 4 - 210 battles

Tier 5 - 372 battles

Those are insanely low numbers, that's not even remotely enough time to learn and absorb the lessons that can be learned at each tier. Maybe Tier I-III would be ok, but only if you spent a lot more time at Tier IV. Compare your battle counts to anyone else in this thread and you'll see that you have not spent nearly enough time at tiers 4-6, not by a long shot.

 

If someone with 20,000 battles and 60% Win Rate is playing Tier IV, well maybe that's seal clubbing. But for you it's what you should be doing, you need to spend significantly more time at lower tiers until you learn the game better. If you don't then you're going to face a lot more defeat and humiliation, you are not prepared for higher tiers yet.

 

3) Yes, "The random team still lost 3 - 15", because every battle has a winner and a loser. You could also say "The random team won 15-3", what's what everyone on the other random team said when they won that battle. Do not fall into the trap of blaming the MM for losses, because that means that the MM also gets credit for your wins. If the MM creates all your losses and all your wins then you're not really playing the game, you're just along for the ride, and that's obviously silly. This is a game with large teams, and that means that you don't have direct control over your win rate, but you do influence it. You influence your WR in every battle you play, the more your influence is positive the more you will win, the more your influence is negative the more you will lose.

 

Even the very best players in the game only win about 70% when they play solo in random battles. And I mean best players, people who have amazing stats, people who play on pro teams, people who crush it in Clan Wars, the best players in the game still lose roughly 3 out of every 10 battles they play in randoms. If you think about how incredibly far you are from being among 'the best players' that should help you understand your win rate better.

 

4) What you call "lopsided battles" are actually normal here and they should be, because this game is not like most other games you have played. This is a single-death-per-battle game, and that makes a huge difference. Most games have respawn battles, and respawn battles make it much easier to come back from behind, they also make it easier to have close games. But single-death-per-battle games are different, they work in the opposite direction, once you start winning you gain momentum and it gets harder and harder for the losing team to come back. This is true in every single-death-per-battle game that has ever existed, it's not just WoT. It doesn't matter whether your odds of winning are 30%, 50% or 70%, having battle outcomes like 15-3 are perfectly normal. Don't try to compare this game to respawn games, it won't work and it will just twist your head around about WoT. "Lopsided battles" happen more often in WoT because of course they should, because this is a single-death-per-battle game.

 

The best thing you can do for yourself is forget about the margin of victory. It doesn't matter whether it's 15-14, 9-8, 15-4 or 15-0, all that matters is "Win" or "Loss". Forget about the margin of victory, it will never tell you anything useful about the game.

 

5) WoT is easy to learn, difficult to master.

 

A lot of games say that, but for WoT it's actually true. Most games tell you that they're difficult to master so that you can feel good about yourself when you succeed, but most of the time it's not really true. WoT is more brutal than most other games (especially games that are played in the NA game market). We could spend a lot of time talking about why it's more brutal, but for this discussion that's beside the point, the only thing that really matters right now is that it's brutal, it has a steep learning curve, and it's hard to master.

 

There are a lot of resources that can help; you get better at the game, but they only work if you spend a good chunk of time watching, reading and learning from them. You can't watch 2 hours of videos and expect to be good at WoT. You can't read one guide and expect to be good at WoT. You have to play some, watch some, read some, and then spend time in battles practicing the lessons that you learn. There are only two places to practice WoT - in Training Rooms with your friends or during battles. Training rooms are pretty boring, but they're a great place to learn and practice, conversely practicing in live battles can be more fun and exciting but can also be frustrating if you don't get a chance to practice the skills you want.

 

No matter what method you use to learn and improve, the bottom line is that you cannot become good at WoT without doing the work. If you don't like the idea of doing homework to get better at a game that's understandable, but you need to understand that you'll improve faster by doing the work than by simply playing the game. It's really hard to get good at WoT just by clicking "Battle" over and over again, that's the hardest way to improve.

 

Hopefully this has been of some help to you, good luck and happy tanking.



dunniteowl #44 Posted Feb 07 2019 - 18:39

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This is ONE Match.  One.

 

I could, were I to be so inclined, post dozens of games from a single day of losing where I was mostly top dog or in the top three or four slots.  You know what that tells me?  Not that, "It wasn't me," which, in some cases is true.  It tells me that I wasn't positioned well enough to do even better.  It tells me I didn't read my team's deployment as well as my opposing team's deployment to better leverage my ability or unit.

 

Look, it's easy to find things to point to with your fingers.  This is the Quintessential Escape Clause -- finding fault.  If you can blame MM, RNG, your Team Mates, Seal Clubbers, Stat Padders, the Map, being stock, etc,. you are literally finding a reason to not have to reflect on what you might have or could have done differently that could have changed the outcome -- even if it was only being able to get in one more or two more shots.

 

As an example, what is the difference between this:

 

Posted Image

 

 

And This:

 

Posted Image

 

I mean, beyond the obvious, why was one of those a Loss and the other a Win?  That sort of difference can be pretty hard to sort out as an exact thing.  Look at the Loss.  I did MORE DAMAGE than I did in the Win.  Not by a LOT, but by enough so that it was more than one or two shots of damage.  So WHY did I win with less damage done? 

 

Was my team just, on the whole, better?  Probably.  What did I do that made a difference, after all, in both these examples, I was obviously wearing my Carry Pants, so why did I win with less damage?

 

Better positioning?  More accurate deployment and target selection?  Luck?

 

These are the sorts of things you can post and post and post, over and over again with no real consensus by those who choose to respond as to what that might have been that made the difference.  So your screenshot of one high top damage game from you is not going to 'prove' anything to anyone -- and it shouldn't be thought of as a 'proof' to you, either. 

 

It was a good game by you that didn't end well.  Everybody gets those -- just like they also get those games no-one will post a screenshot of: the Zero Damage Game where you win and the Zero Damage Game where you lose.  No-one's going to post those unless they are attempting to illustrate something like I am right now with a win and a loss, both of which I took top marks in the process.

 

This is here to provide for you an example of WHY YOU MUST MOVE PAST BLAME and finger pointing.  It happens.  It's going to keep happening. 

 

Even the very best players lose about 33% of their games.  I am willing to wager THEY might have a much more valid ability to say, "I had a bad team," than you or I and be able to leave it at that.

 

Even so, I am also willing to wager that the very best players A) do not angst too much over a loss in general and B) reflect on what they could have done differently that might have changed the outcome in their favor.  

 

The mark of a consistent winner is the ability to move past the emotional aspect of playing frustration and blame so that they can turn their mental efforts to concentrating on what they must do to:

 

Survive (if you do not survive you cannot)

Do Damage (if you can't or don't do this, find another way to)

Help Your Team (if you can't or won't do this, you will have a harder time to)

 

Win (which is never guaranteed)

 

If you are busy chat raging or internally blaming your team mates, you are not concentrating on what you need to do in order to win.  Additionally (and I want you to really pay attention here, because this part is more important than everything else) YOU ARE NOT HAVING FUN!!  How can you possibly be having a good time if you are busy raging, blaming, being angry or frustrated by outcomes not to your liking in that moment?

 

I get upset, make no mistake.  A few days ago I had a WR for my day of 28%.  Ouch!  A few days before that a WR of 38%.  Yesterday 52%.  These sorts of fluctuations occur and when you are on a losing streak, it is ALL TOO EASY to start wanting to point a finger somewhere and say, "THAT!  THAT'S THE REASON I'M NOT HAVING FUN!!!"

 

No.  It's not the reason.  It's a factor, to be sure, but you can, in a loss with high damage like you posted, take satisfaction in YOUR actions and LEAVE IT AT THAT.  If you can do that and teach yourself to do that consistently, you will find that, even in a loss where you 'pulled your weight' or carried the team -- even in a loss -- you have more fun playing.

 

This was the lesson I learned at 6687 matches.  I was really unhappy with the way things turned out and I wasn't playing that well.  I was a pretty steady 48% player.  Which is where I wager you will still be struggling to achieve at the same number of matches (6687) IF you make it that far before you rage quit.

 

The "moral" of my exposition is this:  Don't let your frustration drive you to rage and ultimately rage quit.  Learn to take criticism that is constructive and advice from BETTER PLAYERS with MORE EXPERIENCE when they tell you things like:


You should go down a few tiers and learn the game... (you are struggling to do well at higher tiers where more experienced and better crewed tanks are being used by your Fellow Gamers)

 

Take the time to learn the Game Mechanics... (the adage that Knowledge is Power should be kept firmly in mind)

 

Focus on asking yourself what YOU could do better and ... (don't take your skills and talents for granted, for good or for ill)

Be HONEST with yourself. (it is way too easy to lie to ourselves and the first step is vvvv below)

 

Lastly, one 'better' player is telling you, as a Life Lesson Learned: LET GO OF BLAME.

 

When I did, I had more fun, played better and retained more information relevant to me playing better next time when I reviewed my play, post battle.

 

 

Good Luck, Have FUN & Hope to See You on the Battle Field!

OvO


Edited by dunniteowl, Feb 07 2019 - 18:57.


Akrotiri #45 Posted Feb 11 2019 - 15:29

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Block Quote

 If someone with 20,000 battles and 60% Win Rate is playing Tier IV, well maybe that's seal clubbing. But for you it's what you should be doing, you need to spend significantly more time at lower tiers until you learn the game better. If you don't then you're going to face a lot more defeat and humiliation, you are not prepared for higher tiers yet.

 

I have to dispute this on two counts.  First, when you get seal clubbed you don't actually get to learn anything - it's over too fast.  You roll out, and boom!  You're hit, and you can't even see who fired at you.  That's it, you're done for the game, because you are totally outmatched by someone who's maxed out his tank and crew, and may be running premium equipment and consumables.  You don't learn, you're just frustrated.  Meanwhile, seal clubber is racking up 6, 7, 8, 9, etc. kills.

 

And if YOU become the seal clubber, you don't learn anything, either.  You're just facing a succession of novice players who don't know anything.  It's like shooting fish in a barrel with a cannon.  You're bound to hit. It doesn't equip you to face tougher, better players.  We've all seen examples of this.  Some player who has a wonderful WR, but only in tiers 1-4.  After that, he's a tomato.

 

I think WG really needs to address how new players enter the game.  The bots aren't challenging enough, but there's too much abuse by seal clubbers.



Pipinghot #46 Posted Feb 11 2019 - 22:36

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View PostAkrotiri, on Feb 11 2019 - 09:29, said:

Block Quote

 If someone with 20,000 battles and 60% Win Rate is playing Tier IV, well maybe that's seal clubbing. But for you it's what you should be doing, you need to spend significantly more time at lower tiers until you learn the game better. If you don't then you're going to face a lot more defeat and humiliation, you are not prepared for higher tiers yet.

I have to dispute this on two counts.  First, when you get seal clubbed you don't actually get to learn anything - it's over too fast.  You roll out, and boom!  You're hit, and you can't even see who fired at you.  That's it, you're done for the game, because you are totally outmatched by someone who's maxed out his tank and crew, and may be running premium equipment and consumables.  You don't learn, you're just frustrated.  Meanwhile, seal clubber is racking up 6, 7, 8, 9, etc. kills.

 

And if YOU become the seal clubber, you don't learn anything, either.  You're just facing a succession of novice players who don't know anything.  It's like shooting fish in a barrel with a cannon.  You're bound to hit. It doesn't equip you to face tougher, better players.  We've all seen examples of this.  Some player who has a wonderful WR, but only in tiers 1-4.  After that, he's a tomato.

 

I think WG really needs to address how new players enter the game.  The bots aren't challenging enough, but there's too much abuse by seal clubbers.

You're partially right, let's look at what you're right about.

 

When a person is seal clubbing they're not learning anything. But there is a huge caveat that you're ignoring here, playing lower tiers is not automatically seal clubbing, it's part of the process of learning the game. If a 60% player with 20,000 battles plays a Tier III tank that would be seal clubbing, but a 45% player with 3,000 games is not seal clubbing if he plays low tiers, because he's still one of the baby seals. For that matter, a 45% player with 10,000 battles playing low tiers still might not be a seal clubber if he has a low win rate at low tiers, because he never learned how to play the game well and still needs to learn more from lower tier play. Whether a player is seal clubbing or not depends on who they are. A 45% player with 3,000 battles is not seal clubbing if he goes back to player lower tiers, he still has a lot to learn by playing lower tier tanks.

 

Conversely, when you get seal clubbed you definitely should learn something. Sometimes what you learn is "don't rush to that spot because it's too vulnerable". But there are other ways to learn - stay in the battle and watch from spectator mode, look for the players who are doing well and follow them, watch how they play. If you have a seal clubber on your own team, definitely follow them as a spectator and see what you can learn from how they play. Or after the battle you can watch the replay and figure out what went wrong. Why did you get killed so quickly? Did you do something wrong, or did you just get outplayed? - and so on. There are multiple way to learn when you get seal clubbed.

 

And let's be honest, most of the time when you get killed in low tier battles it's really not some seal clubber. Yes, they exist, yes there are people with 10,000+ battles who only play at tiers I-IV, but they're talked about more than they actually exist. In most low tier battles it's just a bunch of people who are learning the game and trying to get better before they move up, but people love to blame seal clubbers because it makes them feel better when they lose. "I could win more often if there weren't so many seal clubbers in the game", that's a lazy excuse for failing to improve. And if you actually do get clubbed, do what you can to learn from it and move on, battles in this game only take 4-15 minutes so it's not like you've just lost an hour of your life. Learn what you can, move on, that's how you get better, and that's how you win more.



scHnuuudle_bop #47 Posted Feb 12 2019 - 00:02

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View PostBadTiger62, on Feb 07 2019 - 06:31, said:

Ok so here are some stats - obviously you think you know me because it took you forever to learn the game and climb the tiers - Im still learning but I dont need to go back and play tier IV-VI with the rest of the baby seal clubbers.

 

 

The random team still lost 3 - 15  that's not me - thats not poor playing or bad attitude on my part - you cant say I didnt try. This game has some major flaws with matchmaking and you all know it - youre just too damn afraid to say it in the forums. You have just accepted it as part of the game. Dont tell me what I need to do or what tiers I need to play - I got that part. Its this that we have no control over and yes, I can damage and kill tier 10s but if your team is mismatched youre gonna lose no matter what you do. I dont need to win all the time, but if you are new and you lose all the time will you stick around - probably not. That is all Im saying. 

 

This is a game of many levels. 

The title of your post , asks a simple question. 

 

 

There is more than one way to have fun. 

 

Most popular seems to be, log on, play some shoot-em up. Win lose, who cares, next game. It never even occurs to most that people take win lose so seriously. 

A sub-set. Casual players with cash. Just shooting, driving, but too impatient, so simply buys the big toys and starts from there. Win lose, who cares, next game will be just as much if not more fun. 

Most have only a vague understanding of stats and xvm is a mystery, never explored. How many toys is far more critical than something they have heard referred to as "winrate".

 

Complex casual players. Most spend money, and want some satisfaction. A small  effort is spent studying, perhaps even a small clan or just friends to get acquainted with a few levels of the game.

Still, playing well is more fun than win lose, although winning is more fun. It is still just entertainment.

 

Serious casual players. First with a goal other than mere shoot-em up game play. Lots and lots of time and effort to study and analyze most of the games nuances. Much effort spent in gaining stature, mostly for entry into successively serious clans.Goals of class mastery, statistical stature and clan climbing. Losing games really begin to tarnish the fun. Economics of winning begins to rear its head.

The pipe dream of Esports and cash still there. Perhaps a lucrative youtube channel. 

 

Serious players. A level of dedication beyond most is required, the time and effort to acquire their skill levels at this game is remarkable. 

Most have the goal of only the top clans, and work hard at gaining entrance into cash competitions. A clear statistical signature and the sense of achievement.

Either or goal, a well funded internet game support player. Guidance, mods, streaming , stat analysis etc. 

 

You seem to have chosen a more frustrating route to game fun. Through statistical goggles. You already see "fun" and "winning" as having a larger relationship than necessary.  

You seem to be in a clan and making the efforts, including this to garner advice.

 

Where you are always going to see as a major disconnect, will be the random public battles.

A majority of players could care less if they won or not. Just how many buildings did he run over, did anyone see that shot at the end? What will I choose next game. Huh, I forgot to look to see how many HP I took.

 

Perhaps you need the next challenge, provide enough effect into battles to tip the outcome. Either through personal carries of games or platoons dominating. 

Use your effect in battles as your "fun" tickle point. More fun you have, better you play, or vice versa. Stats will follow the "fun".

 

 

 


Edited by scHnuuudle_bop, Feb 12 2019 - 00:24.


Anublister #48 Posted Feb 12 2019 - 00:22

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schadenfreude

dunniteowl #49 Posted Feb 12 2019 - 02:14

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You forgot one class of players, there Schnuuudle:

 

Passionate Die Hard Gamers, such as myself.  I play to win whenever possible, because I enjoy competitive play.  I study regularly as a means of improving on my successes and minimizing my failures.  I play without any intent to:

Join a Clan

Brag About How Good I Am

Stroke My Ego With Stats

 

 

I just want to play.  It's WHY I am willing to play on a potato computer on a wireless internet connection on lowest settings at 8fps.

 

Would I love a better rig?  Oh, yeah, you bet I would.

 

Do I have to have one?  No.  As long as I can play, I'm pretty happy to give it a go.  

 

On the second portion of me being a Die Hard Gamer, I can appreciate the casual gamer, the serious gamer and the hard core gamer.  I respect where each subset is coming from.  I hope that they all want to win, because, clearly winning and coming out on top is always more fun than not.  Even so, a sufficiently exciting and challenging game that comes down to the wire and leaves my heart thudding in my chest, having done well, win or lose -- that's tops in my book.

 

Entertainment is not just plinking and shooting for me.  It's meeting the challenge of knowing I am outclassed and still finding some way to contribute.  It's about finding in me the will and determination to make some other gamer "pay" for my HPs whenever possible.  I want those to be earned, not just given away.  At the same time, when I am outplayed, while it is not AS fun, I can recognize it and deal with it and not get bent or crooked over it.

 

Games are fun, but they can be (and are to me) learning experiences where you learn to use critical thinking skills and apply them to solutions in the game environment and find ways to apply that same level of thinking to real world concepts and applications that do not have anything to do with the game at all, whenever possible.

 

Lastly, as a Die Hard Gamer, I want to be able to share what I know and help out others seeking that improvement in their game.  I recognize, as a Long Time Gamer since before video games existed, that Gamers, especially such as myself, are in rather short supply on the whole, so I do my best to support folks who want to play for whatever reasons.  I do not expect them to want to play well, although it is my hope that they would wish to without outside reinforcement for their own sense of personal satisfaction or achievement in some manner.  That's their deal, though, not mine.

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF!

OvO


Edited by dunniteowl, Feb 12 2019 - 02:17.


SquishySupreme #50 Posted Feb 13 2019 - 21:22

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Being chased in an EVEN 90 by a Bulldog like something out of a keystone cops movie.  I took him almost 60 seconds to kill me as I dodged in and out of dead tanks, buildings, and hills - with him about 20 ft behind me the whole time.

Tiny and annoying, always get 1-2 finishes due to the high camo and extremely fast shell velocity.   Most fun I've had so far.

Now if I could only manage to get a TKS-20...  Go-kart with a gun.




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