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[ST] Emil I, Emil II, Kranvagn Rebalance


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DomoSapien #1 Posted Mar 01 2019 - 18:30

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Hey Tankers!

We've got some pretty exciting news to share with you. Balance changes!


The Swedish Heavy line is getting some tweaks. Today we're launching the Supertest for preliminary versions of the updated Emil I, Emil II, and Kranvagn.

 

These tanks have been in the game for a few years now, and it's no secret that they could use a little love (the Emil II and Kranvagn in particular). On paper, they sound pretty sweet. Heavily armored turret, amazing gun depression, and an autoloading magazine system with 4 shells; truly the epitome of ridgeline brawling!  Or... so it would seem.

 

Currently, the Swedish autoloaders are too much like those from other nations, despite having some pretty unique characteristics, and they aren't particularly better at anything than other Autoloading heavies of similar tier. Their magazines inflict lots of damage but they take a long time to reload, pulling them away from an active role in battle for a relatively long time. 


The idea is to change up the playstyle a little bit - make them reload faster and increase their alpha damage. While removing a shell theoretically reduces your options, taking a comparable amount of time off the total clip reload time acts as a mitigating factor. A reloading autoloader is a helpless autoloader, and having 3 rounds in the clip is better than 1. In addition, the 120mm gun will be getting a slight reduction in its intra-clip reload time between shells. 

Overall this means a DPM increase for the Kranvagn by about 20%.

 

Changes aren't final, this is just the first wave of testing for these vehicles so it's likely that more changes will occur down the road.

 

 


Edited by DomoSapien, Mar 01 2019 - 18:36.


BigDollarBillz #2 Posted Mar 01 2019 - 18:44

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I really wish the E100 and IS-4 would have gotten the buffs first. The E100 has been passed over for a very long time. But it is what it is.

Garandster #3 Posted Mar 01 2019 - 18:48

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Looks nice, love the 3 shot, keeps the reload manageable. Can we expect to see any changes to the soft stats too? Can't wait to see how the other tanks are getting re-balanced.

YANKEE137 #4 Posted Mar 01 2019 - 18:50

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Look at all them Swedes

hiding in the weeds

waiting on a reload

So why not buff the gun

to add a little fun

and see more Russians explode.


Edited by YANKEE137, Mar 01 2019 - 18:52.


Cthulhu #5 Posted Mar 01 2019 - 19:01

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While, you're at it , start work on the e100 , pz vii, leo 1, and rmh pzw please. 

RC_1140 #6 Posted Mar 01 2019 - 19:15

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Very nice changes, but no gun handling or pen buffs means they still won't be used that often. T57 still has better dpm. 

pickpocket293 #7 Posted Mar 01 2019 - 19:56

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The metric of DPM is unimportant with an autoloader-- it's all about burst damage. By reducing the burst damage capability of these tanks, you won't be doing them any favors. When I played through the Emil 2, the clip potential allowed me to solo-clip a tier 8 heavy. That won't be possible anymore.

 

 

Also, by ignoring the garbage-tier penetration and aiming stats that the tanks all have, WG is (once again) ignoring the real issues that these tanks have, and solving a problem that didn't exist.



RoyalGreenPC #8 Posted Mar 01 2019 - 20:04

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View PostDomoSapien, on Mar 01 2019 - 13:30, said:

Overall this means a DPM increase for the Kranvagn by about 20%.

Changes aren't final, this is just the first wave of testing for these vehicles so it's likely that more changes will occur down the road.

IMO the problem with Kranvagn isn't the DPM, it is the Penetration values. 252 AP and 300 HEAT is pretty lackluster for tier 10 HT, only LTs have lower penetration.



dont_ping_me #9 Posted Mar 01 2019 - 21:33

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View Postpickpocket293, on Mar 01 2019 - 13:56, said:

The metric of DPM is unimportant with an autoloader-- it's all about burst damage. By reducing the burst damage capability of these tanks, you won't be doing them any favors. When I played through the Emil 2, the clip potential allowed me to solo-clip a tier 8 heavy. That won't be possible anymore.

 

 

Also, by ignoring the garbage-tier penetration and aiming stats that the tanks all have, WG is (once again) ignoring the real issues that these tanks have, and solving a problem that didn't exist.

 

agreed, they often miss changing the real problem when buffing tanks.

Avalon304 #10 Posted Mar 01 2019 - 21:50

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View Postpickpocket293, on Mar 01 2019 - 11:56, said:

The metric of DPM is unimportant with an autoloader-- it's all about burst damage.

 

 

Im mean thats a false statement if Ive ever read one. DPM is just as important for an autoloader as it is for any other tank in the game. The ability to have more uptime in a match is incredibly important.



RC_1140 #11 Posted Mar 01 2019 - 22:06

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View Postpickpocket293, on Mar 01 2019 - 10:56, said:

The metric of DPM is unimportant with an autoloader-- it's all about burst damage. By reducing the burst damage capability of these tanks, you won't be doing them any favors. When I played through the Emil 2, the clip potential allowed me to solo-clip a tier 8 heavy. That won't be possible anymore.

 

 

Also, by ignoring the garbage-tier penetration and aiming stats that the tanks all have, WG is (once again) ignoring the real issues that these tanks have, and solving a problem that didn't exist.

 

IMO lower bust damage (and alpha on single shot tanks) would be nice to have on all tanks that do high damage in a short amount of time. 

Goat_Rodeo #12 Posted Mar 01 2019 - 22:13

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Oh sweet Jesus thank you. I literally stopped half way to the Kranvagen because the Emil 2 was such a let down from the Emil 1. But they forgot to look at increasing pen and dispersion values. It’s pretty meh tbh and is a real issue in that line from tier 9 and up. 

But for all the love of...why not buff some others while they’re at it? I mean the Leo 1 right? Even if WG came out and said if and why they’re having difficulty balancing that tank, and others in desperate need of buffs, it would be quite welcome. 


Edited by Goat_Rodeo, Mar 01 2019 - 22:16.


Heldar #13 Posted Mar 01 2019 - 22:20

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Ehh its nice to see some changes being made (looking at you E-100 and IS4), but dpm or alpha isnt the problem.  440 alpha means nothing when I can't A) hit what I'm aiming at and B) pen it when I do hit it.  Gun handling and pen are these tanks issues, not dpm.

pickpocket293 #14 Posted Mar 01 2019 - 23:38

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View PostAvalon304, on Mar 01 2019 - 14:50, said:

 

 

Im mean thats a false statement if Ive ever read one. DPM is just as important for an autoloader as it is for any other tank in the game. The ability to have more uptime in a match is incredibly important.

 

Let me rephrase-- for autoloaders, DPM is less important than burst potential when compared to a single-shot gun, where DPM is the only metric there is. For instance, the Lorraine has 1600 DPM, but is still a fantastic tank and a highly potent damage dealer because of the burst potential. The strength of auto-loaders is in the burst. By reducing the burst potential, you're significantly affecting the potential of the tank. Will the drum reload reduction offset the burst nerf? I guess we'll see.

Mikosah #15 Posted Mar 02 2019 - 00:06

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Considering the alpha buff, I'd say the burst potential hasn't actually changed by that much. And since these are now 3-shot drums instead of 4, the time needed to deliver the burst and then move on to the next is significantly shorter than before. Still, I would have been willing to tolerate the long inter-clip and drum reload times if I could trust those guns to actually hit and penetrate the enemy in the first place.

Volcanic_lobster_220 #16 Posted Mar 02 2019 - 08:05

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View Postpickpocket293, on Mar 01 2019 - 19:56, said:

The metric of DPM is unimportant with an autoloader-- it's all about burst damage. By reducing the burst damage capability of these tanks, you won't be doing them any favors. When I played through the Emil 2, the clip potential allowed me to solo-clip a tier 8 heavy. That won't be possible anymore.

 

 

Also, by ignoring the garbage-tier penetration and aiming stats that the tanks all have, WG is (once again) ignoring the real issues that these tanks have, and solving a problem that didn't exist.

 

Upvoted because i agree WG really ignored that a pen buff is what the tank needs, about the gun i think it'll be fine, you won't be able to clip out a full HP tank but in exchange you won't be sitting there for half a minute doing nothing, 11 seconds shorter reload sounds like a nice trade

Avalon304 #17 Posted Mar 02 2019 - 12:21

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View Postpickpocket293, on Mar 01 2019 - 15:38, said:

 

Let me rephrase-- for autoloaders, DPM is less important than burst potential when compared to a single-shot gun, where DPM is the only metric there is. For instance, the Lorraine has 1600 DPM, but is still a fantastic tank and a highly potent damage dealer because of the burst potential. The strength of auto-loaders is in the burst. By reducing the burst potential, you're significantly affecting the potential of the tank. Will the drum reload reduction offset the burst nerf? I guess we'll see.

 

Yes, but losing 270 burst for 20% more DPM and there for greater uptime in battles and lower burst exposure (half a second less than the T37 for the Kranvagn) is way way better than the extra 270 alpha.

 

Burst is good to have on autoloaders, but its not the end all be all, and has never been. The old 13 90 used to have huge burst for a light tank but was other wise trash, the Foch 155 has amazing burst, as does the Foch B. But both of those TD are garbage. The T57 itself isnt good because of its 1600 burst potential, its good because it can dump that burst in 6 seconds, and then do it again 23 seconds later. This new Kranvagn (and the rest of the line for that matter) will dump less burst, but will do so quicker and more often in a match. At tier 10 the Kran will reload about 2 seconds faster than the T57 (with better overall gun handling, and roughly the same penetration on their standard rounds.

 

View PostVolcanic_lobster_220, on Mar 02 2019 - 00:05, said:

 

Upvoted because i agree WG really ignored that a pen buff is what the tank needs, about the gun i think it'll be fine, you won't be able to clip out a full HP tank but in exchange you won't be sitting there for half a minute doing nothing, 11 seconds shorter reload sounds like a nice trade

 

These tank dont have meaningfully worse penetration than other guns of their caliber at tier. They dont need pen buffs.

RC_1140 #18 Posted Mar 02 2019 - 19:00

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View PostAvalon304, on Mar 02 2019 - 03:21, said:

 

These tank dont have meaningfully worse penetration than other guns of their caliber at tier. They dont need pen buffs.

252 isn't good enough to never need HEAT, in which case it has 30-40 less pen than most t10 heavies. Just comparing it to the t57 vs flat type 5 lower plate (because that is a big easy place to test) kran has 62% chance to pen and t57 has 85% chance to pen. 23% less chance of penning is not meaningfully worse? Now if it had 270+ APCR pen and never needed to fire HEAT it wouldn't matter as much. 



pickpocket293 #19 Posted Mar 02 2019 - 20:17

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View PostAvalon304, on Mar 02 2019 - 05:21, said:

 

Yes, but losing 270 burst for 20% more DPM and there for greater uptime in battles and lower burst exposure (half a second less than the T37 for the Kranvagn) is way way better than the extra 270 alpha.

 

Burst is good to have on autoloaders, but its not the end all be all, and has never been. The old 13 90 used to have huge burst for a light tank but was other wise trash, the Foch 155 has amazing burst, as does the Foch B. But both of those TD are garbage. The T57 itself isnt good because of its 1600 burst potential, its good because it can dump that burst in 6 seconds, and then do it again 23 seconds later. This new Kranvagn (and the rest of the line for that matter) will dump less burst, but will do so quicker and more often in a match. At tier 10 the Kran will reload about 2 seconds faster than the T57 (with better overall gun handling, and roughly the same penetration on their standard rounds.

 

 

These tank dont have meaningfully worse penetration than other guns of their caliber at tier. They dont need pen buffs.

 

 

They do though. The T57 is crap unless you spam HEAT, because the accuracy is garbage. The Kran is in the same boat, except it doesn't even get a reliable HEAT round. RIP.



Avalon304 #20 Posted Mar 02 2019 - 21:59

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View PostRC_1140, on Mar 02 2019 - 11:00, said:

252 isn't good enough to never need HEAT, in which case it has 30-40 less pen than most t10 heavies. Just comparing it to the t57 vs flat type 5 lower plate (because that is a big easy place to test) kran has 62% chance to pen and t57 has 85% chance to pen. 23% less chance of penning is not meaningfully worse? Now if it had 270+ APCR pen and never needed to fire HEAT it wouldn't matter as much. 

 

I think I can count on 1 hand the number of tiems Ive needed to load HEAT in my Emil II, which is the same gun as the Kranvagn. I generally fins that if Im going face to face with a Type 5 or Maus in tanks like this Ive made a mistake somewhere. I always try to get side shots or rear shots. Not every heavy tank sould be face checking super heavies.

 

View Postpickpocket293, on Mar 02 2019 - 12:17, said:

 

 

They do though. The T57 is crap unless you spam HEAT, because the accuracy is garbage. The Kran is in the same boat, except it doesn't even get a reliable HEAT round. RIP.

 

This is why I call you bad at the game pickpocket. Because you say stuff like this. The T57 isnt crap unless you spam HEAT. Far from it, because in a T57 you should be close enough that its gun handling doesnt really matter and you shouldnt be face to face with tanks you cant reliably pen.






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