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Are our Skilled Players Pulling their Weight?

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SnakePliskan #41 Posted Mar 02 2019 - 23:16

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View PostGarandster, on Mar 02 2019 - 23:03, said:

 

1. His data is bad, there are so many variable on what tank is used and what values are expected to actually say you are performing well. An SPG or TD needs a lot more damage in proportion to HP than other tank classes to get a decent WN8 (a standard measure of performance on an individual tank basis). Doing 800 damage in a tier 8 LT will get a much higher WN8 (color) than doing 800 in a tier 8 TD.

2.The sample size is WAY to small to draw any conclusions in any way.

3. Notice any inconsistancies with the data? You can't take the average of an average to get an answer. You can't show average damage and have a reliable number when certain groups are mostly only high tier games (Purple) versus yellow or red that have more games at lower tier where there is less HP resulting in lower average values.

4. Look at the player base he selected, it doesn't look to represent a cross section example of what the player base is comprised of currently if this is what the data is supposed to represent.

 

This is not the first time I have seen him present edited "data" on the forum to make a point.

 

 

 

What you just listed can be applied to any stat about any player in the game. Variables map, tank, tank on that map, players team mates, ......on an on. Doesn't make the info invalid may make it basic, minimal. The title is misguided in relation to the context.

Mfezi #42 Posted Mar 02 2019 - 23:49

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View PostGarandster, on Mar 03 2019 - 00:03, said:

 

1. His data is bad, there are so many variable on what tank is used and what values are expected to actually say you are performing well. An SPG or TD needs a lot more damage in proportion to HP than other tank classes to get a decent WN8 (a standard measure of performance on an individual tank basis). Doing 800 damage in a tier 8 LT will get a much higher WN8 (color) than doing 800 in a tier 8 TD.

2.The sample size is WAY to small to draw any conclusions in any way.

3. Notice any inconsistancies with the data? You can't take the average of an average to get an answer. You can't show average damage and have a reliable number when certain groups are mostly only high tier games (Purple) versus yellow or red that have more games at lower tier where there is less HP resulting in lower average values.

4. Look at the player base he selected, it doesn't look to represent a cross section example of what the player base is comprised of currently if this is what the data is supposed to represent.

 

This is not the first time I have seen him present edited "data" on the forum to make a point.

 

 

 

I don't really feel inclined to repeat myself in responding to each of your unfounded  allegations, but suggest that you read a few of my previous responses or look back at some of the other stats I have posted. If I thought you were interested, I would offer to provide you with the underlying data so that you could check the integrity and produce stats to suit your own requirements.

In fact, why don't you download the WoTNumbers app and share your data to improve on the sample size...... :)

 

 

 



Tolos #43 Posted Mar 02 2019 - 23:54

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So you needed a chart to tell you that the guys that are very good win more game than the guys that are very bad....

 

My god dude, just stop, learn the game instead...



Gasubal #44 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 00:19

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what is this

 



NeatoMan #45 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 01:22

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View PostDeviouslyCursed, on Mar 02 2019 - 11:46, said:

 

This is ridiculously stupid. You get better by playing against better players. Put all the fails together and all they will do is think they are good because all they ever meet are other fails, and the same fail tactics will work over and over because no one else in their matches is doing anything better.

 

This should be painfully obvious to anyone with half a functioning brain.

 

Now, if you argued that the reds and oranges won't or can't learn anything (and that is why they are red and orange anyway) and they'd have more fun playing only against other bads, you may have a point. But to try to claim they will learn more from bad players instead of facing good players is just dumb.

"Oh what will tomatoes do without us purples gracing their presence?"

 

There is always enough skill disparity within groups that there will be someone better to learn from.  Red players don't even know enough about the game to recognize what it is that very skilled players are doing.  Why do you think we keep getting cries of hax on the forums.  It might as well be magic.  All they learn is not to move from behind their rocks or else they'll get pasted by players taking advantage of vision mechanics



NeatoMan #46 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 01:28

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View PostGarandster, on Mar 02 2019 - 17:03, said:

 

1. His data is bad, there are so many variable on what tank is used and what values are expected to actually say you are performing well. An SPG or TD needs a lot more damage in proportion to HP than other tank classes to get a decent WN8 (a standard measure of performance on an individual tank basis). Doing 800 damage in a tier 8 LT will get a much higher WN8 (color) than doing 800 in a tier 8 TD.

2.The sample size is WAY to small to draw any conclusions in any way.

3. Notice any inconsistancies with the data? You can't take the average of an average to get an answer. You can't show average damage and have a reliable number when certain groups are mostly only high tier games (Purple) versus yellow or red that have more games at lower tier where there is less HP resulting in lower average values.

4. Look at the player base he selected, it doesn't look to represent a cross section example of what the player base is comprised of currently if this is what the data is supposed to represent.

 

This is not the first time I have seen him present edited "data" on the forum to make a point.

Averages do tell a story.  Just because you have no clue how to work with and interpret it, does not make it invalid.



ThePigSheFlies #47 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 06:14

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View PostGasubal, on Mar 02 2019 - 18:19, said:

what is this

 

 

he's trying to suggest that your 1 game at 9199 dmg wasn't pulling your weight.

 

you only killed 7 tanks.  therefore your unskilled team carried more than their weight.

 

Kappa

 



Garandster #48 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 16:54

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View PostNeatoMan, on Mar 02 2019 - 19:28, said:

Averages do tell a story.  Just because you have no clue how to work with and interpret it, does not make it invalid.

 

Averages do tell a story, however that doesn't remove the flaws from what he is presenting.

Anublister #49 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 17:41

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What's that? Players that have longer view range, faster reload times, better camo, and access to OP tanks contribute more? Really? Big surprise!

:sceptic:



Tolos #50 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 17:52

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View PostAnublister, on Mar 03 2019 - 16:41, said:

What's that? Players that have longer view range, faster reload times, better camo, and access to OP tanks contribute more? Really? Big surprise!

:sceptic:

 

So a guy with 2k games but a 65% win ratio is going to have longer view range than a player with 85k and a 45% win ratio, or a faster reload, or camo ?. All players have access to all tanks.

 

Think before you post. 



Jer1413 #51 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 18:04

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View PostAnublister, on Mar 03 2019 - 16:41, said:

What's that? Players that have longer view range, faster reload times, better camo, and access to OP tanks contribute more? Really? Big surprise!

:sceptic:

 

You've played over 67k battles. What could possibly be wrong with your view ranges, reloads and camo?

 

 



NeatoMan #52 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 19:52

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View PostGarandster, on Mar 03 2019 - 10:54, said:

Averages do tell a story, however that doesn't remove the flaws from what he is presenting.

None of the things you mentioned apply, or are already accounted for in WN8.

 

He's got over 30k players sampled.  That's plenty to get a decent cross section.   More data isn't going to make it skew further.  Once the trends set in they typically stay that way, and only converge.

 

He's done pretty much the same thing WN8 does when they rate players and find expected values, except on a limited scale.  Are you trying to tell us that WN8 is bad too?



PJMC #53 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 20:00

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There are few things in life you can count on 100%. One of them is that muppets are going to muppet. The only thing you can plan on in this game that works 100% of the time...

Gang_Starr #54 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 20:03

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View Post24cups, on Mar 02 2019 - 08:23, said:

Funny that the blues  seem better at tier 10.

 

Extremely tiny sample size

the_Deadly_Bulb #55 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 20:21

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View Postmoogleslam, on Mar 02 2019 - 07:10, said:

You already had the answer before you started collecting data.  The only reason players are blue and purple is because they are pulling their weight.

 

Shocking isn't it!? :teethhappy:

NeatoMan #56 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 20:37

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Here is something to look at to see if players AREN'T pulling their weight

 

I found how many losses an individual had where they only had 2 or fewer damaging shots, AND the game ended up being close.  I considered two criteria for close games; 1) 3 or less margin of victory or 2) 1.5 tanks worth of HP difference remaining between teams.  These both seem to yield about the same results.

 

For me, a 53% player, I got 2.2% (by margin) and 2.4% (by HP) of my games were close where my lack of contribution could have cost me a win.  Had I pulled my weight it might have made a difference

 

for mfezi, a 46% player, it's 5.0% (margin) and 5.1% (HP)

 

let's say if you pull your weight half of those can be turned into wins.  For me I'd earn a full percentage point higher win rate, and mfezi would get 2.5% higher.   That's a pretty big chunk of games thrown away by being useless.    One sure way to get better is to avoid dying uselessly.   You even don't need to carry, just don't be useless



Mfezi #57 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 20:49

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View PostNeatoMan, on Mar 03 2019 - 21:37, said:

Here is something to look at to see if players AREN'T pulling their weight

 

I found how many losses an individual had where they only had 2 or fewer damaging shots, AND the game ended up being close.  I considered two criteria for close games; 1) 3 or less margin of victory or 2) 1.5 tanks worth of HP difference remaining between teams.  These both seem to yield about the same results.

 

For me, a 53% player, I got 2.2% (by margin) and 2.4% (by HP) of my games were close where my lack of contribution could have cost me a win.  Had I pulled my weight it might have made a difference

 

for mfezi, a 46% player, it's 5.0% (margin) and 5.1% (HP)

 

let's say if you pull your weight half of those can be turned into wins.  For me I'd earn a full percentage point higher win rate, and mfezi would get 2.5% higher.   That's a pretty big chunk of games thrown away by being useless.    One sure way to get better is to avoid dying uselessly.   You even don't need to carry, just don't be useless

 

I think we gotta to find you some more useless players to hit on and maybe some better players to highlight your inadequacies!..... :)

 



NeatoMan #58 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 21:25

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View PostMfezi, on Mar 03 2019 - 14:49, said:

I think we gotta to find you some more useless players to hit on and maybe some better players to highlight your inadequacies!..... :)

didn't try to, but these are the only two data I got to work with.  It applies to everyone, including me.  I got plenty of derp games where looking back I can see I blew it.

 

btw, I plan on doing an opposite analysis to see how often we end up carrying as opposed to being carried.


Edited by NeatoMan, Mar 03 2019 - 21:26.


DeviouslyCursed #59 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 22:14

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View PostNeatoMan, on Mar 03 2019 - 01:22, said:

"Oh what will tomatoes do without us purples gracing their presence?"

 

There is always enough skill disparity within groups that there will be someone better to learn from.  Red players don't even know enough about the game to recognize what it is that very skilled players are doing.  Why do you think we keep getting cries of hax on the forums.  It might as well be magic.  All they learn is not to move from behind their rocks or else they'll get pasted by players taking advantage of vision mechanics

 

The best way to learn is to learn from the best. Period. By learning from people slightly better than you, all you are doing is learning bad habits that are just a little bit less worse than the ones you currently have.

 

This might be less obvious (or relevant) in WoT, but is was a massive issue in all the FPS games I've played. In other words, the tips you learn from average players will let you compete against other average players, but are near useless when playing against very good players. To compete with teh best players, the person now needs to unlearn everything again and learn the correct way to play competitively.


Edited by DeviouslyCursed, Mar 03 2019 - 22:19.


NeatoMan #60 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 22:16

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View PostDeviouslyCursed, on Mar 03 2019 - 16:14, said:

The best way to learn is to learn from the best. Period. By learning from people slightly better than you, all you are doing is learning bad habits that are just a little bit less worse than the ones you currently have.

Only if the best take the time to actually help them and point out what it is they are doing, otherwise they are just spectators or fodder without a clue.  You need to have a clue first before being able to recognize what makes someone good. 

 

When I was new I watched a stug zoom around mountain pass like a LT, and brawling everywhere he went.  He was actually doing quite well. I thought that is how the stug should be played; an up front and in your face brawler.   Checked his stats later and discovered he was basically just a yoloing tomato, who had a rare great game.  Clueless players wouldn't be able to distinguish that as something they should emulate or not.  It's why lakeville valley and overlord beach keep attracting players.  They can't recognize why it fails.  They only remember the one time, at band camp, that they killed 3 tanks there







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