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Are our Skilled Players Pulling their Weight?

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Nixeldon #61 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 22:24

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View PostNeatoMan, on Mar 03 2019 - 16:16, said:

Only if the best take the time to actually help them and point out what it is they are doing, otherwise they are just spectators or fodder without a clue.  You need to have a clue first before being able to recognize what makes someone good. 

 

When I was new I watched a stug zoom around mountain pass like a LT, and brawling everywhere he went.  He was actually doing quite well.  Checked his stats afterward and he was basically a yoloing tomato, who had a rare great game.  Clueless players wouldn't be able to distinguish that as something they should emulate.

 

There was almost nothing explaining WOT when we started playing. That has changed immensely. Many of the best players have written guides, made videos, stream, there are training clans, WG has significantly more information available plus training, the tier spread is tighter, etc. If a player is not learning now, it is because that player refuses to learn or simply can't learn.

 

 


Edited by Nixeldon, Mar 03 2019 - 22:25.


Blazzy #62 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 22:36

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View PostNeatoMan, on Mar 03 2019 - 21:16, said:

Only if the best take the time to actually help them and point out what it is they are doing, otherwise they are just spectators or fodder without a clue.  You need to have a clue first before being able to recognize what makes someone good. 

 

When I was new I watched a stug zoom around mountain pass like a LT, and brawling everywhere he went.  He was actually doing quite well. I thought that is how the stug should be played; an up front and in your face brawler.   Checked his stats later and discovered he was basically just a yoloing tomato, who had a rare great game.  Clueless players wouldn't be able to distinguish that as something they should emulate or not.  It's why lakeville valley and overlord beach keep attracting players.  They can't recognize why it fails.  They only remember the one time, at band camp, that they killed 3 tanks there

 

This is what is wrong with people today, "its not my fault I'm stupid, its your fault".

 

Maybe you should take the time yourself to improve.  Stop waiting for handouts.



NeatoMan #63 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 22:46

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View PostBlazzy, on Mar 03 2019 - 16:36, said:

This is what is wrong with people today, "its not my fault I'm stupid, its your fault".

 

Maybe you should take the time yourself to improve.  Stop waiting for handouts.

Saying that they can only learn from blue-purple players is laughable.  They need to learn basic tactics first, which they can learn just fine from yellow players.  Once they become yellow themselves they can figure out advanced tactics from even better players.   What purple players do to become purple goes way beyond the basics.

 

You are basically telling them that the only way they can learn soccer is by playing against Messi, when they haven't even figured out how to kick a ball.



Mfezi #64 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 22:56

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View PostNeatoMan, on Mar 03 2019 - 21:37, said:

Here is something to look at to see if players AREN'T pulling their weight

 

I found how many losses an individual had where they only had 2 or fewer damaging shots, AND the game ended up being close.  I considered two criteria for close games; 1) 3 or less margin of victory or 2) 1.5 tanks worth of HP difference remaining between teams.  These both seem to yield about the same results.

 

For me, a 53% player, I got 2.2% (by margin) and 2.4% (by HP) of my games were close where my lack of contribution could have cost me a win.  Had I pulled my weight it might have made a difference

 

for mfezi, a 46% player, it's 5.0% (margin) and 5.1% (HP)

 

let's say if you pull your weight half of those can be turned into wins.  For me I'd earn a full percentage point higher win rate, and mfezi would get 2.5% higher.   That's a pretty big chunk of games thrown away by being useless.    One sure way to get better is to avoid dying uselessly.   You even don't need to carry, just don't be useless

 

You could be a little more diplomatic!.... :)

 



Blazzy #65 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 23:03

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View PostNeatoMan, on Mar 03 2019 - 21:46, said:

Saying that they can only learn from blue-purple players is laughable.  They need to learn basic tactics first, which they can learn just fine from yellow players.  Once they become yellow themselves they can figure out advanced tactics from even better players.   What purple players do to become purple goes way beyond the basics.

 

You are basically telling them that the only way they can learn soccer is by playing against Messi, when they haven't even figured out how to kick a ball.

 

so you're telling me EVERY game has a purple player in it?

 

Here, let me explain this too you since you suffer from an entitled mentality.   Nobody started out purple or blue, they had to work for it.  There are countless recounts of players documenting their progress towards reaching unicum status.  Did they rely on some purple player holding their hand the whole way?  Nope, they invested time in learning and improving themselves.   Yes advice from somebody can help, but it ultimately falls on the individual themselves.

 

You either care about stats or you don't.  If you care, YOU should be trying to improve yourself. If you don't, great just play and have fun.  However, whether your the first or the latter, don't feel entitled that the best players should compensate for you.



NeatoMan #66 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 23:08

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Block Quote

Block Quote

That's a pretty big chunk of games thrown away by being useless.   useless

 You could be a little more diplomatic!....

 that was meant for both of us



NeatoMan #67 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 23:13

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View PostBlazzy, on Mar 03 2019 - 17:03, said:

so you're telling me EVERY game has a purple player in it?

 

Here, let me explain this too you since you suffer from an entitled mentality.   Nobody started out purple or blue, they had to work for it.  There are countless recounts of players documenting their progress towards reaching unicum status.  Did they rely on some purple player holding their hand the whole way?  Nope, they invested time in learning and improving themselves.   Yes advice from somebody can help, but it ultimately falls on the individual themselves.

 

You either care about stats or you don't.  If you care, YOU should be trying to improve yourself. If you don't, great just play and have fun.  However, whether your the first or the latter, don't feel entitled that the best players should compensate for you.

 

Who the hell said anything about holding hands?  The point is they can learn what they need to learn from players just above their skill level.  They don't need experts beating them up to learn the basics. 

 

It is possible to improve without purple players around.  That's what it was like when the game started.  The players willing to improve will separate themselves from the chaffe, even without the experts.



Mfezi #68 Posted Mar 03 2019 - 23:16

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View PostBlazzy, on Mar 04 2019 - 00:03, said:

 

so you're telling me EVERY game has a purple player in it?

 

Here, let me explain this too you since you suffer from an entitled mentality.   Nobody started out purple or blue, they had to work for it.  There are countless recounts of players documenting their progress towards reaching unicum status.  Did they rely on some purple player holding their hand the whole way?  Nope, they invested time in learning and improving themselves.   Yes advice from somebody can help, but it ultimately falls on the individual themselves.

 

You either care about stats or you don't.  If you care, YOU should be trying to improve yourself. If you don't, great just play and have fun.  However, whether your the first or the latter, don't feel entitled that the best players should compensate for you.

 

Not sure if that was said or even implied, but if you gotta get this off your chest, go ahead, I'm listening!.... :)


 

 



Copacetic #69 Posted Mar 04 2019 - 20:12

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Good stuff guys keep it coming. 

dunniteowl #70 Posted Mar 05 2019 - 07:21

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I link regularly to folks that are sub 48% performing when I come across them in matches, The WoT Welcome Package.  I linked it to Mfezi in another thread just the other day -- again.

 

The WWP contains the Game Mechanics, Crew explanation (both linked out of the Global Wiki), links to training guides, tutorials and videos that any low skilled player or new player that has yet to figure out more than getting started playing.  I consider it a condensed Core Essential Information if you want to improve.  Is there more available?  Yeah, TONS!!  I know, I waded through a crap ton of videos, guides, tutorials, forum posts, the wiki and several other WoT Related Sites.

 

I consider the WWP a shortened search for the best and most readily useful information on how the game works and how to leverage that information.

 

 

 

When I link this in game, I will preface my linking with this:

 

Hey, I noticed that you seemed to be having trouble in that last game, please allow me to offer you a link to this:

 

Then I include the address to it in the next line.

 

Lastly, I tell them, "It's from the Official World of Tanks" forums and it will allow you to improve your playing knowledge.  Hope you find it useful! 

 

 

 

All this is in reference to the idea that we do not do enough to help others and that we also didn't get all this stuff that is already there, so why should the other new people get 'hand held?'

 

Firstly, it's not hand holding.  This is ridiculous on its face as an attitude.  What it is, is sharing the benefit of knowledge learned over time to shorten the time it takes them to 'get up to speed' in a game that's got players here who've been at it from 4 to 9 years playing players who are so new that they think that 200 matches is enough to allow them to wonder why they aren't super unicums already.

 

As the game ages, new players really do have a much harder time of it at the start.  The low tiers are populated by some very regular low tier players and this makes new players up against a skill wall nearly immediately.  Now, while WG *has* added some stuff for new players, it isn't really all that high level stuff.  When I started there was no Proving Grounds, no WoT Academy (both now gone, two steps forward three steps back) and no Enter Boot Camp (which, while it can be a bit fun and does teach some REALLY basic skill concepts is not that much more) to teach new players anything about the game.

 

So, doesn't it fall on us players who like and still want to play the game to honestly and earnestly WELCOME new players?  You know the attitude we display in game and during our communications with others is where we get the chance to provide a new player with a greater desire to remain, even if it's tough to play this game, because there are plenty of long term players who are eager to get new players in, helpful to them and willing to provide them the benefit of experience gained.

 

On the long term player's hand, this provides you with a much more challenging new player and a better skilled player in a shorter period of time relative to struggling to figure it all out while playing against folks who've been at this for almost a decade.  The payoff for this methodology and attitude is this:  Less Higher Tier Scrubs, less scrubs in general, a more knowledgeable player base and, most importantly, a larger number of Fellow Gamers that feel like playing and staying while they improve their skills.

 

 

I'm not just an owl in the tree.  I observe -- then act.

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF!

OvO


Edited by dunniteowl, Mar 05 2019 - 07:30.


jsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1 #71 Posted Mar 05 2019 - 10:14

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no. every time we see u we throw the game so we keep your stats worse than those of a cat licking the mouse randomly. 

 

there, conspiracy confirmed. we all hate you



Anublister #72 Posted Mar 05 2019 - 15:12

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View PostTolos, on Mar 03 2019 - 16:52, said:

 

So a guy with 2k games but a 65% win ratio is going to have longer view range than a player with 85k and a 45% win ratio, or a faster reload, or camo ?. All players have access to all tanks.

 

Think before you post. 

All players have access to all tanks? Really? You don't have to grind? Skilled players don't take advantage of crew skills, or mount appropriate equipment, or play OP tanks that cost real world money? How about you think before you criticize?



Anublister #73 Posted Mar 05 2019 - 15:13

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View PostJer1413, on Mar 03 2019 - 17:04, said:

 

You've played over 67k battles. What could possibly be wrong with your view ranges, reloads and camo?

 

 

 

I haven't played 67K battles in one tank. What could that possibly mean?

Flarvin #74 Posted Mar 05 2019 - 15:29

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View PostAnublister, on Mar 05 2019 - 09:12, said:

All players have access to all tanks? Really? You don't have to grind? Skilled players don't take advantage of crew skills, or mount appropriate equipment, or play OP tanks that cost real world money? How about you think before you criticize?

 

All players can grind tanks, no skill required. 

 

Same true for crew skills and credits for equipment, grindable for all. 



Jer1413 #75 Posted Mar 05 2019 - 15:51

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View PostAnublister, on Mar 05 2019 - 14:13, said:

 

I haven't played 67K battles in one tank. What could that possibly mean?

 

Nor has anybody else.

 



spud_tuber #76 Posted Mar 05 2019 - 20:22

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View PostJer1413, on Mar 05 2019 - 08:51, said:

 

Nor has anybody else.

 

Well, purple text guy is probably pretty close to that in his precious...



NeatoMan #77 Posted Mar 05 2019 - 21:56

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View PostJer1413, on Mar 05 2019 - 09:51, said:

Nor has anybody else.

I'd say 59k is probably close enough



Nerat_Kirine #78 Posted Mar 05 2019 - 22:32

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The purples in tier X doing less damage than blues in your statistical sample may be the result of playing light tanks. Light tanks tend to have lower expected values.



CV_Rework_is_Fine #79 Posted Mar 06 2019 - 19:54

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View PostAnublister, on Mar 05 2019 - 14:12, said:

All players have access to all tanks? Really? You don't have to grind? Skilled players don't take advantage of crew skills, or mount appropriate equipment, or play OP tanks that cost real world money? How about you think before you criticize?

 

Yes all players have access to all tanks, good and bad players have to do the grind, it's the exact same XP needed for both sets of players. You also said ( or rather heavily implied ) that good players have better camo, reload etc. Not that they could take advantage of those better. As for " op tanks that cost real money ", yes, yet again, all players have access to those. 

 

Again, think before you post. 



spud_tuber #80 Posted Mar 06 2019 - 20:10

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View PostTolos, on Mar 03 2019 - 10:52, said:

 

So a guy with 2k games but a 65% win ratio is going to have longer view range than a player with 85k and a 45% win ratio, or a faster reload, or camo ?. All players have access to all tanks.

 

Think before you post. 

I feel I have to point out that technically, there are a few premiums not sold anymore. 

 

Also, CW reward tanks aren't truly available to all players.  They're only available in limited quantities, and require a certain amount of skill, including social skills, to acquire, rather than just the time any tech tree tank or money any available prem tank requires. 

 

However, this is by no means a rejection of your point, only a minor edge case exception.   

 

Better players aren't magically given better crews and equipment, they earn the XP just like a poor player does, except they can earn it in fewer battles due to earning higher XP/battle, and probably managing their XP, free XP, and crew XP better between battles as well.  







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