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A proposal on how to fix scouting

light tanks scouting scouts wheeled vehicles armored cars spotting camo

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ThatTrafficCone #1 Posted Mar 18 2019 - 05:38

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My previous prediction on how wheeled vehicles may be represented in the game was, unsurprisingly, not entirely accurate. In fact I think Wargaming's implementation of them is pretty decent, although it needs some improvement. After my own experiences playing with these things, and from reading the opinions of other players, I think their role in the game can be perfected. Moreover, light tanks are also in need of some rebalances of their own to compete with these new zoom zooms.

Step 1: Make wheeled vehicles their own class.

I think this is pretty straightforward. Scouts they may be, but tanks they are not. I'd suggest formally making wheeled vehicles their own class called "Armored Cars". The point of this is so that they become more distinct from the other vehicles in the game. It's one thing for Armored Cars to physically play different, but it doesn't mean a whole lot when the game doesn't currently identify them as different. They need to have their own identity.

However, even as their own class, there's no reason they can't still easily get clumped together with Light Tanks for match maker calculations. Additionally, this doesn't get in the way of wheeled tank destroyers being introduced, as those would still get classified as tank destroyers. Remember that the TD class (and SPGs too, to some extent) is an all-encompassing class. There are TDs that play like heavies, mediums, and lights (ex: Obj. 263, Jagdpanther, and Hellcat, respectively). There's no reason there can't be ones that play like cars.

Step 2: Limit the gun calibers.

The biggest issue with wheeled vehicles in the game currently is their guns. It's not necessarily their dispersion values, as high accuracy is a necessity as the role for an active scout. Rather it's a combination of their gun's penetration and damage, and the great determiner of those values is typically the gun's caliber. Generally speaking, damage and penetration increase with a gun's caliber size. The simple way to deal with this is to limit caliber sizes. While there will always be exceptions, I think a safe rule of thumb would be the following:

  • No Tier X armored car will have a gun caliber larger than 100 mm
  • No Tier IX armored car will have a gun caliber larger than 90 mm
  • No Tier VIII armored car will have a gun caliber larger than 80 mm
  • etc...

This way, penetration and damage per shot is kept deliberately low. Currently, the one thing that wheeled vehicles should not be are snipers. Yet they can penetrate targets at range and on the move quite easily due to their incredible accuracy. Yet they need that accuracy to be able to fulfill their hit-and-run style of active scouting at close rangers. So by limiting the gun caliber, we directly limit their penetration. At long distances, penetration drop off should be enough of a factor that they can't damage most targets. But at close range, where these wheeled vehicles are supposed to be, that limitation doesn't factor in to the equation.

As a result of having fewer chances at penetrating targets, and in turn doing less damage overall because of the smaller caliber sizes, wheeled vehicles could see a considerable buff to their DPM to compensate.

Step 3: Fix the light tanks.

If armored cars are going to be active scouts, then light tanks need to be passive scouts. Fortunately, they can do this already pretty well. However, we should also remove their ability to be active scouts. They should retain a high degree of camouflage on the move, but the total on-the-move bonus (having as much camo on the move as when stationary) should be removed entirely and kept solely for the new Armored Car class. As compensation for this, light tanks can receive an appreciable degree of gun accuracy that is up to par with both medium tanks and heavy tanks of their tiers. We can also remove the awful penetration drop off penalties these tanks tend to experience.

Not much would generally change with light tanks in terms of game play. The aim of this change would be to discourage them from active scouting while promoting passive scouting. They could also snipe now, but still not to the degree of excellence that some medium tanks and tank destroyers can.

Step 4: Profit

Hopefully with these changes, the roles of scouting become more easily defined. Armored Cars become more identifiable not because of the fact they have wheels, but due to their active scouting role and aggressive style of play. Light tanks can still do the things they already excel at, but now are less punished for being what they are.

Now the game just need more maps that actually let scouts be scouts, and scouting may become pretty darn close to being fixed.

 

Also maybe add more maps so scouts can actually scout.



ThatTrafficCone #2 Posted Mar 18 2019 - 05:39

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If these changes were to go through, the current setup of French wheeled vehicles would need some modifying. I think we can get away with the following changes.

EBR 105: Simply remove it from the game. Replace it with the top-researched version of the previous EBR 90, but call it the EBR D.921. Buff the top speed to 100 km/h, and let it reach that speed forwards and in reverse. Modify the DPM and penetration appropriately.

EBR 90: Rename this tank to the Panhard EBR or just Pan. EBR. There were a couple of 75 mm options for this vehicle, so give it those as its stock options. The stock 90 mm F3 gun then becomes the new top option. Modify the DPM and penetration appropriately.

Lynx 6x6: No major changes except the appropriate care given to its DPM and penetration. Keeps the 90 mm option, but it has poor DPM because of it, so the 75 mm options become more attractive. But I don't like the name and would very much like to rename it to the Pan. ERC.

Hotch. EBR: No real changes except the appropriate care given to its DPM and penetration.

AMD 178B: I'm going to be pedantic and inform everyone this tank's guns are fake. IRL there was only one 75 mm option and it was much shorter. I'd like to push the 178B back to Tier V and give it a gun that actually reflects history for a change. In its place at Tier VI, we can put in the AML 60. This was the successor the the AMD and carried a 60 mm mortar. It would be a bit of a derp running around at Tier VI, but it wouldn't be the first such vehicle, and at 60 mm the damage output would be comparatively minuscule. There was the AML 90, but that would work much better as a premium tank.



Al_Scarface_Capone_ #3 Posted Mar 18 2019 - 06:12

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Someone isn't happy with the EBR's :P

 

I read a portion as posts like these are a dedication of time and conversation. 

Something that just caught my eye was:

 

"We can also remove the awful penetration drop off penalties these tanks tend to experience."

 

Shell pen mechanics are across the board, you can't make APCR and AP pen drop off different for every tank. 

 

 

Scouts don't have any problems, just because a tank with wheels is implemented doesn't mean the whole concept of "scouting" should be changed or adjusted. 

Adapt.

 


Edited by Al_Scarface_Capone_, Mar 18 2019 - 06:12.


ThatTrafficCone #4 Posted Mar 18 2019 - 06:14

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View PostAl_Scarface_Capone_, on Mar 17 2019 - 22:12, said:

Someone isn't happy with the EBR's :P

 

I read a portion as posts like these are a dedication of time and conversation. 

Something that just caught my eye was:

 

"We can also remove the awful penetration drop off penalties these tanks tend to experience."

 

Shell pen mechanics are across the board, you can't make APCR and AP pen drop off different for every tank. 

 

 

Scouts don't have any problems, just because a tank with wheels is implemented doesn't mean the whole concept of "scouting" should be changed or adjusted. 

Adapt.

 

 

You kidding me? The wheelie bois are amazing. I'm really enjoying them. I'm just thinking that WG is missing an opportunity to do something about scouting in general by introducing them into the game.

 

Also, the Tier X lights have the worst pen drop off in the game. It's like 15% worse than of other tiers for them specifically.


Edited by ThatTrafficCone, Mar 18 2019 - 06:18.


Al_Scarface_Capone_ #5 Posted Mar 18 2019 - 06:20

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View PostThatTrafficCone, on Mar 17 2019 - 22:14, said:

 

You kidding me? The wheelie bois are amazing. I'm really enjoying them. I'm just thinking that WG is missing an opportunity to do something about scouting in general by introducing them into the game.

 

But why would you want to remove the EBR 105? It's a speed demon and deserves its spot as top of tech tree?



cKy_ #6 Posted Mar 18 2019 - 06:32

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Nah, let's not.

ThatTrafficCone #7 Posted Mar 18 2019 - 06:48

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View PostAl_Scarface_Capone_, on Mar 17 2019 - 22:20, said:

 

But why would you want to remove the EBR 105? It's a speed demon and deserves its spot as top of tech tree?

 

The gun is a bit too strong for the changes I proposed, I think. It's a good light tank gun, but wheeled vehicles would no longer be "light tanks." They'd be their own class.

_Tsavo_ #8 Posted Mar 18 2019 - 13:58

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I was okayish until I got to remove the EBR 105, then said no.   It is my precious!  

Carde #9 Posted Mar 18 2019 - 16:08

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I do not think wargaming has players that understand light tanks, as the rescheduling of tiers did more damage than good and tiers 9-10 are actually worse.  That, plus the fact that the light tank as a class is the most difficult to play makes me certain that Wargaming does not understand the impact that the Wheeled Vehicles have on the class because proper feedback is only reported by a very very small amount of qualified respondents.   Remember when the Grille 15 was substantially nerfed?  Wargaming directly cited encroachment into medium tank roles.   The overlap into light tanking is an order of magnitude greater, but theres just no understanding of the impact because the lt class is not...overplayed by the least common denominator like Russian meds.

 

Drop a wheeled vehicle in game that is heavy to medium and watch the torches and pitchforks come out for the half a day Wargaming takes to fix it, however.



DUKE_AUTY #10 Posted Mar 18 2019 - 18:39

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Step 3:

 

Are you serious?

 

I like to active scout also passive scout. It all depends on the situation.

 

You're suggesting altering a class without considering the long term effects. I doubt many light drivers will be willing to sacrifice camo for a modest improvement in accuracy.

 

 






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