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Brief analysis of proposed arty changes

arty arty changes

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Flarvin #41 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 19:39

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View PostZuikakoo, on Mar 22 2019 - 13:31, said:

SPG arguments have turned into a Batman vs Ironman kind of argument.    Logic and reason has already played out a while ago and people made their choice.    You have SPG players, and you have everybody else.   SPG's don't really exist in the same game everybody else does.    You're trying to have a logical discussion to a person who'se playing a completely different game than you.    Of course Batman would win, he always wins. 

 

Arty threads are basically just carbon copies, same arguments and trolling. Even if the posters change. 

 

An argument over which rich guy has the most resources, not for me. Superman has always been my favorite, he has great power but uses it for the good of others. A truly heroic quality. 



stalkervision #42 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 19:48

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View PostFlarvin, on Mar 22 2019 - 19:18, said:

The best thing about the arty changes is, finally there are arty threads on this forum. 

 

You can never have to many arty threads, because those threads are fully of well thought out meaningful dialogue and insight. lol

 

SPG arguments have turned into a Batman vs Ironman kind of argument.    Logic and reason has already played out a while ago and people made their choice.    You have SPG players, and you have everybody else.   SPG's don't really exist in the same game everybody else does.    You're trying to have a logical discussion to a person who'se playing a completely different game than you.    Of course Batman would win, he always wins. 

 

 

 

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RickEdwards #43 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 19:59

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View PostFlarvin, on Mar 22 2019 - 19:10, said:

 

Given most tier 10 arty are underperforming, that 6% less average damage was too much of a nerf in the first place. 

 

The actual data does not match your claim, “overpowered as hell.”

 

The have never been under performing; arty has always done significant damage, especially considering that they can do that damage without any real risk to them losing HP. Even if they do less damage than other classes, that fact of them not being in any real danger while doing so more than makes up for the slight amount less of damage they might do compared to other classes. Also, the "overpowered as hell" statement was in reference to a hypothetical situation, so your statement does not really make any sense.

 

Also, regardless of their damage, the 6% reduction as a trade for stun is still a buff overall.



Garandster #44 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 20:05

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View PostI_QQ_4_U, on Mar 22 2019 - 12:06, said:

 

Some day I'd love to see someone actually come up with a reasonable argument that it's a broken mechanic that has anything to do with the rules of this game.

 

What is the argument that you have for it being a fair and balanced mechanic? I personally refer to it as a broken mechanic because it doesn't seem balanced and fair to me, but seriously what is your argument for how the mechanic is fair and balanced, I'm genuinely intrigued to hear the opposite side of this.

spud_tuber #45 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 20:33

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View PostRickEdwards, on Mar 22 2019 - 11:50, said:

 

Did you not see what WG said in their post? Tier 10 arty only does 6% less damage on average after they changed to stun; that means they traded away a rather small amount of damage for that ridiculous stun mechanic. That change was a buff overall; this change is an extremely overdue nerf to a mechanic that has been overpowered since the beginning.

 

Like, take away 6% of my damage on a medium or heavy and give me stun any day; that would be overpowered as hell (seriously though, don't, this game needs less stun not more).

Arty was already underperforming before the introduction of stun, so even if it was a buff, and that's not really evident in their win rate data, that doesn't mean they are in need of an overall nerf.  Again, if WG is honest in their statement that they wish to improve the gameplay from both sides of SPGs, then unit specific buffs will be needed to balance the reduction in stun and splash damage.

 

Them again, no one has ever been able to accuse WG of honesty with a straight face, and WG regularly makes people question their competency as well, so even if they're honest this time doesn't mean they'll do well with any changes. 



spud_tuber #46 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 20:39

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View PostFistmagnet, on Mar 22 2019 - 10:57, said:

you can always leave the game if you dont like the changes - lol 

Didn't much care for the 9.18 changes before introduction, and am meh about them now, didn't much care for the introduction of the JPN superheavies, didn't much care for the introduction of wheelies.  I'll probably be able to tolerate whatever changes WG makes to arty going forward as well.  I'm sure eventually WG make a change that ends up reducing my enjoyment of the game so far I end up quiting, but in the mean time I'll keep voicing my opinions on the game.



Flarvin #47 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 20:51

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View PostRickEdwards, on Mar 22 2019 - 13:59, said:

 

The have never been under performing; arty has always done significant damage, especially considering that they can do that damage without any real risk to them losing HP. Even if they do less damage than other classes, that fact of them not being in any real danger while doing so more than makes up for the slight amount less of damage they might do compared to other classes. Also, the "overpowered as hell" statement was in reference to a hypothetical situation, so your statement does not really make any sense.

 

Also, regardless of their damage, the 6% reduction as a trade for stun is still a buff overall.

 

Arty has less impact on who wins and the most underperforming class on a whole.

 

That is what the actual data shows, and actual data outweighs “hypothetical situation.” 

 

http://wot-news.com/game/tankinfo/en/us



dunniteowl #48 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 21:37

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I'm going to see how it works out and, like V_A_C_A said, "I'll adapt to it and make those who thought it wasn't enough more sincere in their beliefs."  The thing about this game for me is the challenge of playing other players in five classes of vehicles.

 

I like playing all of them.  Due to technical limits on my potato laptop, I am often going to play SPGs and slow TDs.  They're all my computer can handle, because they're already slow, so running at 9fps and a ping that lately fluctuates rapidly from 198 -- 550ms is not as critical to their overall performance as compared to say, the Chaffee, the Leopard, T-67, T-34S/-85M variants or my T1 Heavy, VK 30.01(H) etc.  It's hard to even play my lower tier grindy tanks for my 100 matches a tank mission.  So it's mostly arty and slow, casemate TDs.

 

If WG wants to appease a group of folks who complain loud and long, I'll deal with it.  As I have done since I've been sort of 'forced' to play More Arty than I would prefer, due to my financial situation and the age of my stuff that I cannot afford to replace at this point in time.  So, I'll adapt.  I'm already managing a more than 50% WR while I fight both the Red Team and my computer.  Any further changes to arty will simply be something to adjust to -- like Wheeled Vehicles, Cromwell Platoons, the ELC 25 Cockroach or the AMX ELC bis Platoons.  They all come and then get adjusted to the point where you don't often see them anymore.

 

I'll manage.

 

If it doesn't suit you arty haters, I'm okay with that, too.  Come and try to make me cry.  I dare you.

 

By the way, if you're okay with 2 arty per team, then you are also saying that you are okay with ALWAYS 2 arty per team, For-EV-er.  The facts as presented by WG was that about 85% of the player base plays arty to some degree.  My personal observations is that arty in the queues is about 10% of the total units in queue at any given time.  It's been that steady for all the time I have been playing.  There will be folks who only play arty (I'm not one of them) and there are folks who will play arty along with other classes (my part of the Venn Diagram) and there will be folks who simply won't play arty.  There are others out there who will only play LTs, TDs, MEDs or HVY tanks, too.

 

The funny thing is that, because SPGs work on indirect fire rules, the vast majority of those Only Direct Fire types claim it's broken.  It's another dimension to the game and the 'ability to do damage at a distance' in relative safety (your team has those arty, too, so they CAN counter each other if you work with them) that direct fire folks simply don't want to have to deal with and think is unfair.  It's not broken.  It's different.

 

If SPGs are broken you might as well remove the knight from chess as it operates like no other unit on the board.  Not even the Queen can jump across other units and cut over.  That's very analogous to SPGs in this game.  Eerily so, honestly.

 

Different mechanics while having to respect the same physics does not mean its broken.  Broken would imply that, somehow, whatever SPGs do cannot be countered, overcome or completely stops all other game play.  That's pretty much the definition of 'broken' as regards gaming.  SPGs do not fit that description, no matter how much you might hate them.  Hate them all you wish, but be honest with yourselves.  What you really hate is that someone takes away your sense of control over the situation and that bothers you to the point of inducing rage or hate against a game piece in a video entertainment venue.

 

I'd expect a higher level of maturity from most of those folks if it weren't for the fact that, for the most part, they have shown me repeatedly that they simply do not have the objective capacity to actually listen to themselves as they rant.

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF!
OvO



WhiteBishop #49 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 21:44

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View PostPJMC, on Mar 22 2019 - 16:38, said:

World of heavy and medium tanks...

 

World of Actual Tanks.

RickEdwards #50 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 21:46

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View PostFlarvin, on Mar 22 2019 - 20:51, said:

 

Arty has less impact on who wins and the most underperforming class on a whole.

 

That is what the actual data shows, and actual data outweighs “hypothetical situation.” 

 

http://wot-news.com/game/tankinfo/en/us

 

And then you realize that artillery is almost always equally divided on teams, meaning that for every one artillery losing, the one on the opposite team wins. Basically all this shows is that games with artillery in them result in more draws, as draws count as losses (or "not wins" ) for both teams and would account for how artillery has on average less than 50% WR. Also, it is worth pointing out that most artillery have seen increased winrates since the stun change, which pretty well shows it was a buff.

Edited by RickEdwards, Mar 22 2019 - 21:46.


Frenchmeister #51 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 22:07

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A smart player can avoid most situations of being repeatedly artied.  It's only the crappy players that get hit match after match and cry.  It won't matter how many times WG nerfs arties.  These dunces will still complain because they're not intelligent enough to adjust their play style to compensate for having arties in their match.  

 

WG isn't at all concerned about "balancing" artillery.  They're simply trying to cater to the lowest common denominator in this game to keep the $$$$ flowing in.



WeSayNotToday #52 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 22:11

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View PostGarandster, on Mar 22 2019 - 20:05, said:

 

What is the argument that you have for it being a fair and balanced mechanic? I personally refer to it as a broken mechanic because it doesn't seem balanced and fair to me, but seriously what is your argument for how the mechanic is fair and balanced, I'm genuinely intrigued to hear the opposite side of this.

 

Arty has been in the game since the beginning and tanks and maps are designed with arty in mind.  Arty has its fail maps and its good maps, just as most tanks do.  I would argue that arty has more fail maps, as a class, but that actually argues that arty has less impact on the game as a whole, so it means arty underperforms, as a class.  VBAddict used to show that only 2 arty were in the top 20 or so "most-winningest" tanks.

 

 

 

View Postspud_tuber, on Mar 22 2019 - 20:33, said:

Arty was already underperforming before the introduction of stun, so even if it was a buff, and that's not really evident in their win rate data,

 

 

^^^^

View PostFlarvin, on Mar 22 2019 - 20:51, said:

 

Arty has less impact on who wins and the most underperforming class on a whole.

 

That is what the actual data shows, and actual data outweighs “hypothetical situation.” 

 

http://wot-news.com/game/tankinfo/en/us

 

^^^^^

WeSayNotToday #53 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 22:13

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View PostFrenchmeister, on Mar 22 2019 - 22:07, said:

A smart player can avoid most situations of being repeatedly artied.  It's only the crappy players that get hit match after match and cry.  It won't matter how many times WG nerfs arties.  These dunces will still complain because they're not intelligent enough to adjust their play style to compensate for having arties in their match.  

 

WG isn't at all concerned about "balancing" artillery.  They're simply trying to cater to the lowest common denominator in this game to keep the $$$$ flowing in.

 

"Lowest common denominator [squeaky wheels] in this game" in spite of usage statistics, win rates, and poll results.

Mojo_Riesing #54 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 22:14

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View PostGarandster, on Mar 22 2019 - 08:25, said:

I don't really expect any compensation for this re-balance, they are taking a mechanic that was broken and reining it back in to make it more fair.

 

Well those of us who DO play it, expect something for essentially weakening the class. Not every agrees that is "broken" gawd that is such an over used word around here, along with WoT is dead.



fodder49s #55 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 22:22

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This seems overly complex.

 

I still think having both teams' arty start in the dead center of the map is the fairest, least complicated solution. 



Deathstar_Commander #56 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 22:22

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View PostMojo_Riesing, on Mar 22 2019 - 22:14, said:

 

Well those of us who DO play it, expect something for essentially weakening the class. Not every agrees that is "broken" gawd that is such an over used word around here, along with WoT is dead.

 

I hope you want compensation, it makes the fact you won't get any all the more sweeter.

StrachwitzPzGraf #57 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 22:37

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Guess I'm just dense... but I never saw that sort of issue -- the "perma stun" -- if you have one SPG in the game... the reload is too long to restun (well the BC 155)

 

If you have two -- then it could happen, but both would have to be firing at the same target and have the angles to hit

 

With 3 obviously more likely -- but again unless they focus fire on the same tank in sequence -- no perma stun.

 

The other Mechanic of the 45/55 distribution and the 40/60 nerf -- ok slightly less stun... slightly less chance of damage.  However, there's also comments about adjusting the characteristics of SPG to compensate -- maybe slightly higher pen; faster load times; faster aim times; less dispersion; etc.  Tweaking these would mean shots either fall more frequently or more on target... whatever.

 

The Spall liner thing -- unless I'm using an arty magnet tank (Type 4-5, JgPzE100, etc) -- I don't bother with spall liner anyway -- of the 133 tanks in the garage I have 2 or 3 with spall liners -- much better uses for those equipment slots.

 

We'll see when we see - but I suspect that all that will happen is pretty much nothing.  We all adjusted to the last major changes in SPG -- I'm sure we'll do the same here.



jsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1 #58 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 22:46

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too little too late

Flarvin #59 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 22:51

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View PostRickEdwards, on Mar 22 2019 - 15:46, said:

And then you realize that artillery is almost always equally divided on teams, meaning that for every one artillery losing, the one on the opposite team wins. Basically all this shows is that games with artillery in them result in more draws, as draws count as losses (or "not wins" ) for both teams and would account for how artillery has on average less than 50% WR. Also, it is worth pointing out that most artillery have seen increased winrates since the stun change, which pretty well shows it was a buff.

 

You do understand how tank curve graphs work? 

 

Your post seems to say you don’t. 

 

Tank curve graphs show player overall WR vs player WR in the tank. Basically it shows if various player skill levels over/under perform in a given tank. 

 

Nothing you stated changes what the data shows, that arty is the most team dependent class with the least impact on who wins. And for tier 10 arty, most underperform. Only 1 tier 10 arty is overperforming. 



dunniteowl #60 Posted Mar 22 2019 - 23:23

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View PostRickEdwards, on Mar 22 2019 - 14:46, said:

 

And then you realize that artillery is almost always equally divided on teams, meaning that for every one artillery losing, the one on the opposite team wins. Basically all this shows is that games with artillery in them result in more draws, as draws count as losses (or "not wins" ) for both teams and would account for how artillery has on average less than 50% WR. Also, it is worth pointing out that most artillery have seen increased winrates since the stun change, which pretty well shows it was a buff.

 

Instead of pulling an opinion out of your backside and citing it like facts, how's about you show us some of the 'facts' I underlined from an unimpeachable source?  I would like to point out that each of these statements conflicts in some manner with the other statements.  I'm calling your bluster, buster, there's no luster and it looks more like Custer without his cookie duster.

 

OvO







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