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My understanding of arty


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Zuikakoo #61 Posted Mar 26 2019 - 08:32

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I wonder how much of that is real.   Is arty really intended as a "handicapped accessible " option for their games?   I know they have in the past boasted about how much older their games skew.   Or are they simply trapped by very old very bad decisions?    These assets can't be cheap.   All the modeling and physics and textures take time and people to make.   WG is very aggressive about reusing assets.   The whole Chinese line is an asset flip.   The 59/Patton being notably shameful.   I guess its that WG has a tiger by the tail when it comes to arty.   An unpopular insular minigame that has its own strong community and values.  I mean I have actually played SPGs.   Its no fun, it does not fit in the rest of this game.   

 

Now the other issue.    WG made this mistake again in world of warships.   The aircraft carriers were a poorly implemented minigame.  They have tried a rework and its doing about as bad as anything I have ever seen in gaming.   They might as well have just banned every player with more than a thousand Carrier Battles.

   



Herr_Hoffman #62 Posted Mar 26 2019 - 09:00

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View PostRageMachine117, on Mar 23 2019 - 00:13, said:

 

Well personally I prefered crap accuracy/high damage. You could avoid arty fire,splash wasnt as big of a thing,and more often than not if you did get slapped well the arty got a lucky kill. To balance this class I would say remove the stun feature,rework the damage mechanic to be more similar to those of other tanks,and nerf the accuracy a bit so arty players actually have to try to hit the target. OR if they absolutely MUST stay in this format. Limit it to 1 per game. 

 

Reading all your rants it's obvious you've never even played arty ffs. 'actually have yo try to hit the target' says it all. Clueless. You just sound like one of my many victims.  

Herr_Hoffman #63 Posted Mar 26 2019 - 09:02

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View PostZuikakoo, on Mar 26 2019 - 07:32, said:

I wonder how much of that is real.   Is arty really intended as a "handicapped accessible " option for their games?   I know they have in the past boasted about how much older their games skew.   Or are they simply trapped by very old very bad decisions?    These assets can't be cheap.   All the modeling and physics and textures take time and people to make.   WG is very aggressive about reusing assets.   The whole Chinese line is an asset flip.   The 59/Patton being notably shameful.   I guess its that WG has a tiger by the tail when it comes to arty.   An unpopular insular minigame that has its own strong community and values.  I mean I have actually played SPGs.   Its no fun, it does not fit in the rest of this game.   

 

Now the other issue.    WG made this mistake again in world of warships.   The aircraft carriers were a poorly implemented minigame.  They have tried a rework and its doing about as bad as anything I have ever seen in gaming.   They might as well have just banned every player with more than a thousand Carrier Battles.

   

 

Your tears are delicious  ;) 

Zuikakoo #64 Posted Mar 26 2019 - 09:12

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View PostHerr_Hoffman, on Mar 26 2019 - 09:02, said:

 

Your tears are delicious  ;) 

 

WG isn't coming for me.   They are coming for you.  This is a massive mechanic wide nerf to SPGs .  This isn't an ebb and flow buff and nerf to a single tank.

Herr_Hoffman #65 Posted Mar 26 2019 - 10:13

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View PostZuikakoo, on Mar 26 2019 - 08:12, said:

 

WG isn't coming for me.   They are coming for you.  This is a massive mechanic wide nerf to SPGs .  This isn't an ebb and flow buff and nerf to a single tank.

 

I already quit playing after they nerfed it to a stun-mobile. All my T10 artys are now crap. I only play Frontline or when extremely bored.

Herr_Hoffman #66 Posted Mar 26 2019 - 10:21

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View PostGuido1212, on Mar 22 2019 - 23:18, said:

Do you really believe the multiple changes over multiple years have been caused by a vocal minority?

 

It certainly has. They whine loud and hard. I may have aided in causing that uproar playing Arty all the time and making girls cry. =)

Trauglodyte #67 Posted Mar 26 2019 - 18:16

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View PostGuido1212, on Mar 23 2019 - 00:18, said:

Do you really believe the multiple changes over multiple years have been caused by a vocal minority?

 

I think "vocal minority" is something too easily tossed round, by both sides of the conversation.

 

As an artillery player,

 

- I feel like the ultra-competitive minority (based upon stats, not comments) feel like artillery is play prohibitive to them and that notion is irrelevant to the overall game but still understandable; this is a case of the me vs we

- I feel like 3x artillery per side is an issue that needs to be resolved; was fine pre-change but is largely unacceptable with the increase in blast radius and stun

- I feel like artillery numbers on ultra-small maps is a problem that needs to be resolved

- I feel that an algorithm that adjusts the number of allowable artillery, based upon game tier and map size is an absolute must

- I feel that HE mechanics are more of a problem than the delivery system and that artillery is simply the longest running user of those bad mechanics; Japanese Super Heavies and tier 5/6 derps are more cancerous than arty (imo)

- I feel that artillery is too simplistic, in design, and thus doesn't allow for differentiation in ability

- I feel that the simplistic nature of arty design also creates a situation where you cannot step up and make a "high risk high reward" direct action play, because of those mechanics

- I feel that the stun concept is sound but overly problematic, when combined with HE's impact on tracks

- I feel that balance across artillery is suspect and poorly managed; WHY the f is the M44 as powerful as it is and WHY has the lefH never been nerfed by taking away AP, HEAT, and it stupid vision?

- I feel that the complete lack of appropriate means of finding opposing artillery is problematic for the game; tracers, as they are, are hard to see, can be missed if you blink, and completely blend in on winter maps

 

I am a pro-artillery player but that doesn't mean that I don't see the wholes in the implementation.  I think that 3-5x artillery, in the original implementation, was fine because, after having collected over 1000 games of stats, my tier 6-9 arty had a 32% chance to land a direct hit and a 48% chance to deal damage on any shot fired.  Those direct hits had a 6% chance of deleting the opponent, completely - that equates to a sub-2% chance of 1-shot kills.  I now have an upwards of 72% chance to land a direct hit and a 98% chance of dealing damage on any shot fired and I think that I've had maybe 10 1-shot kills, post change, across another 1000 games.  Sad, kind of, but the change to uptime and massive decrease in insta-deletions is a good thing.  The stun effect, on the other hand... yeah.

 

There is SO much wrong with artillery that it is hard to see what is and isn't right.  You can argue against it but artillery IS good for the game.  This is evident by the fact that it is always on competitive teams.  It has a place but has a place in small numbers that don't cripple the game flow.  I agree, in part, with the new changes but I feel like they're trying to trim the hedges instead of pulling them out and replanting appropriate bushes.  Artillery needs to stay in the game but they've got it boxed into what it is and don't feel like they can really dig down deep and make a real change.

 

One of these days, Guido, I'm going to reach out to you and we're going to have a meaningful chat about it.  I enjoyed the video that you made on it but, honestly, I feel like the arguments for, by the person that messaged you, were too "pro".  I like to consider myself completely grey, on the matter.

 

On a side note, artillery and air strike consumables in Front Lines may just be the most toxic and idiotic additions to this game that War Gaming has ever done.  Was bad at launch and has been bad for two seasons.  Just wow!


Edited by Trauglodyte, Mar 26 2019 - 18:19.


Heat_Stroke #68 Posted Mar 26 2019 - 19:42

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View PostRageMachine117, on Mar 23 2019 - 00:33, said:

 

It's both. Both the scumbags that play arty and the mechanics of it. In years of watching it on youtube and a number of months playing I've gained very little understanding of what allegedly prevents arty from making your game a living hell. Every other class it's pretty basic: Don't go into kill zones but arty doesnt seem to HAVE a kill zone. Most maps anymore far as I can tell have like 3 spots where arty will at most STRUGGLE to hit you (and thats where splash and stun get irritating)

 

As one of those scumbags, as well as one that plays other stuff, and has been on the receiving end, I see it as quantity and capability. Having 2 in a game is a pain, but 3 is stupid. Its not because of the damage, unless of course they all zero in on you at once. Quite honestly arty usually only hovers at around 300-400 points per hit, which in top tiers makes them low on the point scale compared to others, especially when you have to wait 50 seconds for a reload, and 8 more for a zero in. The splash tracking though it a bit much, even being tracked by other tanks over, and over, is a bit much.  They really need to have a 10 second "no track damage" after a repair, and fix the splash through hills and buildings. Right after that they could fix the jacked up optics. You shouldn't be able to see through anything you can't shoot through.  As for map coverage, there are a ton of places on each map arty can not hit you unless they move, just like any other tank. Really only the American,  French and a couple of Brit artys has that advantage, as everything else is too slow to move around.  If you want to make a real informed assessment play it and learn.

Edited by Heat_Stroke, Mar 26 2019 - 19:43.


CheapWine #69 Posted Mar 27 2019 - 01:50

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Someone way up the food chain at WG just loves arty.  If it was someone lower they would have been sent to time out or fired a long time ago for allowing this to cause so many customers to complain and/or leave the game.  It seems pretty clear that they would rather shut the game down than get rid of arty.

fire_raven #70 Posted Mar 27 2019 - 04:04

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View Post3bagsfull, on Mar 23 2019 - 09:50, said:

 

Sometimes you simply can't move because you know the tanks the guy is fighting are on the other side of the rock the arty shouldn't be able to drop a round in a barrel to hit in the first place.       Funny that the tank class that has no reason to move is telling the rest of tanks they should be moving.

 

You play mostly light tanks. If you are constantly getting hit by arty, you are the issue. 

_Kradok_ #71 Posted Mar 27 2019 - 04:19

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View PostRageMachine117, on Mar 22 2019 - 18:33, said:

 

It's both. Both the scumbags that play arty and the mechanics of it. In years of watching it on youtube and a number of months playing I've gained very little understanding of what allegedly prevents arty from making your game a living hell. Every other class it's pretty basic: Don't go into kill zones but arty doesnt seem to HAVE a kill zone. Most maps anymore far as I can tell have like 3 spots where arty will at most STRUGGLE to hit you (and thats where splash and stun get irritating)

 

1) Thanks for calling people a scumbag for playing a pixel vehicle in a video game.

2) Arty has been here since the beginning of the game.  That's like complaining about having the knight removed from a Chess set...  If you don't like it - DON'T PLAY THE DAMN GAME - BUT INCECSSANTLATY WHINING OVER ARTY ONLY MAKES YOU THE TOOL.  Do you not grasp this concept?  Is it too advanced for you?

3) You said you have "very little understanding".... and on this point - I ABSOLUTELY agree with you.  YOU lack very little understanding of the game as a whole. 

 

 

So, an honest question... If you hate it so damn much, and it's been in the game SINCE IT CAME OUT (key point you obviously seem to overlook), why play the game?  Why ask the creators of the game, who have stated it's not going anywhere, to eliminate someone else's entertainment? 

 

Who the **** do you think you are to carry that damn much weight?

 

 

 

 

Deluded snowflake syndrome is real.



moon111 #72 Posted Mar 27 2019 - 04:28

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Instead of complaining about arty, how about:

 

-Any tank, no matter it's class, country, premium, or not... if it has a +5% over average win-rate, it gets nerfed.

-Any tank, no matter it's class, country, premium, or not... if it has a -5% over average win-rate, it gets buffed.

 

Sound fair to me.


Edited by moon111, Mar 27 2019 - 04:30.


dunniteowl #73 Posted Mar 27 2019 - 18:33

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I got to the OPs third and fourth responses.

 

Whiner.  Short and simple.  Nothing more.

 


Don't like arty, don't play this game.  Unbalanced?  Hah!

 

 

The truth is this:  In general, the reason people who Anti-Arty Rage is that they feel helpless or powerless to do anything about it.  This is called Loss of Agency, wherein a person's (false) sense of control over a situation is forcibly removed.  Having no sense of control does not feel good.  Feeling helpless is also feeling vulnerable and doesn't feel very powerful or empowering.  This leads to a very quick mental reaction that turns this sense of helplessness into frustration and then rage, because Anger FEELS More In Control than being Helpless.

 

At that point, the anger is directed at the target of the thing that makes them feel helpless.  So then all manner of "reasons" and "explanations" for why that thing should be removed from their situation (in this case, it's JUST A GAME) and will get extremely vocal about enforcing their position, because typically, many folks who are angry feel that shouting louder, longer and more vehemently than the others makes them "right" when everyone else shakes their heads and walks away.

 

The truth is this, though:  You are Never Fully In Control of ANYTHING other than yourself.  If you get angry at a thing in a GAME that makes you this hard to be reasonable, then you should consider something less stressful for you than this game.  Like Bomb Disposal or Air Traffic Control.  In those cases you can see your 'enemy' and you are in direct contact with it and thus, have that sense of control you so desperately seek.  If it blows up in your face or crashes in the air you can always say, "Well, at least I could see what I was up against."

 

The unit that has been in the game since before it released to the general public, in the eyes of some is 'broken' or it's a 'bad mechanic' or it (my personal favorite) 'poops on people from a distance, ruining their game,' is nonsense, made up in their heads to 'explain' and 'justify' why their anger is right, good, perfect and correct in this situation.

 

Sadly, it is really nothing more than crying in your beer.  Add some salt for the bubbles and you're good to go.  Maybe the purpose of arty, like the other four classes of units on your team is to do exactly that?  Ruin YOUR game.  Yeah, because the other team isn't supposed to 'poop on your fun' and instead are supposed to be there for you to farm at will.

 

Each side gets arty.  Hate or love it, but learn to work with it on your team and against it on the other team.  It's part of the game.

 

Good lord, these anti-arty whines are nothing more than men-children whining that they don't get their cookie, as far as that goes.  The better players who have already shown they have adapted and overcome this SPG issue who complain the most are, in my view, hypocrites.  At that point, it sincerely becomes the chorus of "I want to play my way, even though the game wasn't designed that way."  That boils down to the subconscious knowledge that they know they would be winning more if there weren't indirect fire in this game.

 

Sad.  So very sad.  Adults acting like children who cannot handle a bit of adversity in a game where no-one actually gets hurt.

 

The worst part?  It will never really end.  If arty were removed, the biggest anti-arty folks who simply cannot stop themselves will then find another object that they feel impacts their sense of Agency and focus on that until it, too, is removed.  If this is continued and allowed or acceded to it will, at some point in time, become nothing more than HVY and MED tanks.  Now that sounds like fun.  I remember playing that TANKS game on my Atari.  That was so fair.  Me against another tank or three, but at least none of those scumbag, cancerous clickers pooping on my game.

 

Oh, yeah, that game was pretty boring after the first fifteen stomp wins against my opponents.  What else can you do or try at that point?  That's what this game would become if you let all that negative viewing of arty become prevalent and listened to as much as they think WG should.

 

 

OvO


Edited by dunniteowl, Mar 27 2019 - 18:37.





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