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Proposed SPG changes: Why they are a bad idea as presented.


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cKy_ #41 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 06:48

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View PostRawrlynn, on Mar 24 2019 - 17:48, said:

 

I don't know about you but I'd much prefer to be one shot by an artillery then waiting for 20-30 seconds for that auto loader to pump 3-8 shots in me before I can even reload a second shot.   way more irritating then anything arty can throw. 

 

Lol.

PAP0 #42 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 06:54

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View PostRed_Miles, on Mar 23 2019 - 17:22, said:

 

Artillery used to be massive alpha damage, massive burst damage.  When artillery hit an enemy tank, it was usually the last thing that got to hit them in that round.  Yes, this was frustrating, yes this was overpowered.  We artillery players deserved a lot of the crap we got, because our vehicles were very much overpowered.

 

Still do.

 

Which is why I was wholly embracing of the 9.18 changes.  I liked the idea of being switched to a more support role.  I liked the idea of doing less damage, but potentially enabling my allies to do more damage - I liked the idea of being able to fire more frequently, with more accuracy, with that tradeoff.  And I have enjoyed my time playing artillery since the SPG rework.

 

Don't forget doing 400 damage a shot in tier 8 and higher when missing the tank by 15 meters.

 

I will, however, point out several things the game has done that has indirectly nerfed the capabilities of artillery to contribute to a victory, chief among those things, the introduction of the armored car lines and the ability for consumables to instantly remove the stun condition.

 

Armored Cars just mean arty has to actually re-position, because looking at a mini-map every so often is that hard?

 

In the case of the latter, allowing first aid kits to remove the stun condition means that our primary mechanic now that our damage has been nerfed can be completely counteracted on a cooldown, and an intelligently playing enemy may well only present themselves as a possible target while that item is on cooldown.  This, coupled with our long reload, long aim, and shell travel time, means that we frequently miss, leaving stun inflicted as our only thing we succeeded in doing for the 30 second reload before we took the shot and the 30 second reload we now have to wait through to try again.  That this stun can then be removed with an ability that is on a cooldown means that our ability to contribute drops spectaculary in fights where targets are able to FAK and undo our minute of work.

 

Arty has better aim times and reload times than they did before, I do not know where you thought that they didn't get buffed in that respect.    What's more fun than being stunned by 3 arty throughout the game.  One arty should be the max per team.

 

In the case of the former, artillery is frequently treated as a disposable commodity by many teams, undeserving of any dedicated protection by their teammates.  This is unfortunate, because this is exactly the attitude that armored cars exist to exploit.  They are very fast, very hard to hit targets, especially for artillery acting in self-defense.  The number of times I have been deleted from a game within the first 5 minutes of it by an armored car that then proceeds to kill all the other artillery in the back lines before zooming back out while our teammates are preoccupied is quite high. 

 

Arty wasn't and still isn't supposed to defend itself very well. After all, it doesn't need a line of sight to dump their shots on people. 

 

The point isn't to whine about armored cars, the point is that their mere existence in a match leaves the often unprotected and ignored artillery at a severe disadvantage.

 

Ya just did...:popcorn:

       And again right below this \/

 

In short: We die fast and often against even middling armored car players.  Our only contribution is frequently the stun damage we inflict, which is then negated with a FAK the second the debuff becomes crucial in helping stop the stunned tank.

 

I have seen reports on various player stat aggregating websites that clearly show that even with our stun mechanic, because of team attitude towards artillery, we are as a class the most underperforming class of vehicle with the lowest ability to contribute to a victory compared to all other types of vehicle.  Our stun is the only mechanic we have that enables us to stay where we are on those stats - without it, we will slip even lower.

 

Because a tank that spots, deals damage for it's team will always fair better statistically than a red-line SPG, not spotting for itself.  Arty shouldn't perform well anyways, it doesn't even need to see the target directly to damage it.

 

Without some kind of bonuses, some kind of buffs, to offset what is being proposed, you will make artillery even more unrewarding than it can currently be for artillery players.  

 

Already has insanely better reloads, aim time, accuracy, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 



PAP0 #43 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 07:01

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View Postmoon111, on Mar 23 2019 - 20:56, said:

 

You do realize there's more slaves in the U.S. today then in the 1850's right?  That little clause in the 13th Amendment, "EXCEPT as a punishment for crime..."   

 

I assume you mean human trafficking right? After all, 13% of the population... (you know the rest;)  Don't even know how you got to bringing up slavery in another arty thread.

F1O1 #44 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 14:34

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View PostOmega_Weapon, on Mar 24 2019 - 04:11, said:

 

Lets change it to a 5% buff instead and see how quickly the arty hating cry babies proclaim the end of the world.

 

How about this.

Let us change tiers l and ll and lll matchmaker. You get 15 games in these vehicles, in their respective tier spread. More than enough, liberally, to complete the vehicle experience required. Then, continued gaming in these tanks in these tiers, are forced into +1 and +2 MM, every game they play, as to divert people with 50,000+ games farming tier l tanks with players who just started yesterday. That is what we need to change.

 



Veracks #45 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 14:51

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I've said this before, but I'll say it again: I'll start dancing a happy jig the day I see arty and "gold" around nerfed to oblivion. Both are obnoxious and ruin any semblance of skill, as do a number of other factors in the game such as +/-25% damage and penetration. If anything, what I would want to see is:

 

1.) Arty becomes absolute impotent or removed. I shouldn't be punished for actively going out in risky spots to exploit the enemy. If anything, arty should have a ~10 second deploy time like Swedish TDs, and you CANNOT move or fire until you wait that ~10 second timer out to deploy or pack up.

 

2.) Gold rounds are either outright deleted or given proper balancing. This balancing needs to be something harsh so that using them makes the player think twice. That includes stuff like dropping their alpha by ~50%, dropping their penetration to 300mm max, or putting some limiting factor on them (can't take more than 10 rounds, firing a gold round means you no longer can gain credits in a match and will lose a ton, etc).

 

3.) Fix maps to stop being some sort of bad MOBA clone. Frontline is a prime example of how to do a map right. Allowing all areas of interest to have multiple flank points means you're constantly on your toes and you have to perpetually relocate to exploit the enemy. The reason we even need arty and gold rounds in the first place is because the current maps are so restricted that you cannot flank anyone in a meaningful way.



ThePigSheFlies #46 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 15:20

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View Postjt1alta, on Mar 23 2019 - 21:17, said:

Nicely put OP.

For the most part Arty players seem to be the ones that don't complain and whine about the game.

 

 

we're playing different games.  for the most part, when I have chat turned on, the arty players are the ones screaming at their team: 

  • for not countering yolo wheelies
  • for not having a spread defense (which doesn't work against a spearhead anyway
  • for not carrying them

 

meanwhile spgs are the vehicle of choice for intentional, and careless griefing of allied players 



Omega_Weapon #47 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 15:34

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View PostcKy_, on Mar 23 2019 - 23:22, said:

Remind me how these changes affect you, seeing as how you do pretty much nothing but seal club the lower tiers?

 

And I think I understood it just fine, thanks.

 

Over 11 000 battles played in tiers 7, 8 and 9, so yeah I have experience receiving stun from arty. But good try at deflecting from the issue by calling out my low tier games. If you did understand the video then you are deliberately misrepresenting the changes to push an anti-arty agenda. Happens on the forum all the time though so can't say I'm too surprised.

Omega_Weapon #48 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 15:41

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View PostF1O1, on Mar 24 2019 - 08:34, said:

How about this.

Let us change tiers l and ll and lll matchmaker. You get 15 games in these vehicles, in their respective tier spread. More than enough, liberally, to complete the vehicle experience required. Then, continued gaming in these tanks in these tiers, are forced into +1 and +2 MM, every game they play, as to divert people with 50,000+ games farming tier l tanks with players who just started yesterday. That is what we need to change.

 

 

That would be pretty fair. As long as it doesn't stop me from completing 400 battles in every tank, I can't see any reason to object here.

Edited by Omega_Weapon, Mar 24 2019 - 15:41.


Omega_Weapon #49 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 15:47

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View PostVeracks, on Mar 24 2019 - 08:51, said:

 

I shouldn't be punished for actively going out in risky spots to exploit the enemy.

 

Logic fail.

RaynorShyne #50 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 15:57

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View PostBurning_Haggis, on Mar 23 2019 - 21:32, said:

 

Afraid to post from primary, opinion dismissed.

 

You're going to have to ignore 90% of the postings here, Sparky.  

atila_xD #51 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 15:57

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lol remember when ""PEOPLE"" were like looo, arty will never be changed quit crying noob

 

-arty gets fairly tuned and some overpowered arty is slightly nerfed

-""PEOPLE"" go to write a 1200 word essay and how WG is bad developers yada yada, times changed



Veracks #52 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 16:07

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View PostOmega_Weapon, on Mar 24 2019 - 09:47, said:

Logic fail.

 

You seem to misunderstand. When there's no arty in a match, there are far more options you can take in terms of flanking or so on. These points become absolutely impossible to use if arty is in the game. These "risky" spots are only "risky" because arty is actively forcing people to stay in the corridors instead of moving around. A good example of this is how you have a LOT more options on Studzianki. You can flex a lot more on that map if arty isn't around, but good luck doing anything but hugging buildings if there's 3 arty.

 

A single class being in the match should NOT completely disable most of the map. That's just ridiculous. WG has for example placed rocks, hills, and buildings in certain locations so that a single bush cannot hit every point, thus preventing TDs from being in some sort of almighty sniper position. Meanwhile Arty can completely ignore this because their massive reach and arc. All you need to do is shuffle around a bit on most maps, and you'll be able to hit every major location as arty.



RaynorShyne #53 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 16:20

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View PostcKy_, on Mar 23 2019 - 22:38, said:

 

A white family that is

 

Ah, what's a weekend without dragging racism into the forum.

 

Tea anyone?

 

:bajan:

 



RaynorShyne #54 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 16:21

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View Postmoon111, on Mar 23 2019 - 22:56, said:

 

You do realize there's more slaves in the U.S. today then in the 1850's right?  That little clause in the 13th Amendment, "EXCEPT as a punishment for crime..."   

 

(*pssst:  I *think* I know where your going, but you missed by a decade:  December 6, 1865)

F1O1 #55 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 16:38

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View PostOmega_Weapon, on Mar 24 2019 - 14:34, said:

 

Over 11 000 battles played in tiers 7, 8 and 9

 

Versus 13,000 battles in tier ll / lll? 

 

Anyway. The video does not include what parameters WG is tinkering on buffinf. They say it is a re-work, not a nerfing. They showed us the reductions, so the increases can only be speculated on. What is it going to be, camo? Mobility? Accuracy / aim-time / disp.?  Fire rate? Damage?  Who knows.

 

All we know so far, numerous arty are singled out for specified nerfs such as shell velocity and loop. 

Arty damage at the edge of burst radius width is being reduced 10%. Arty stun effect at the edge being reduced 10%

Arty minimum stun timer nerf. Going from depending on minimum stun - damage caused ratio of 45-55, to 40-60.  (dmg more important for figuring out stun caused)

Arty stun reductions upon striking already stun vehicles, some just reduced, weaker stacks removed altogether. 

Super heavy spall liner buff and benefit. 



LpBronco #56 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 16:53

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...except the changes proposed are the same changes that were championed in the Sandbox before Stun was ever released. Enough with the sky is falling ... these changes will make SPG's a skilled pursuit because you're going to have to do a better job of actually hitting the targets, like everyone else.

 

Let me add here for anyone who is unfamiliar with my position but I've refused to play arty since 9.18 went live as I see the present iteration of arty as little more than a grieving mechanic. With these changes I will begin treating them like an equal class again. It will sure help my campaigns as I can free a bunch of orders.



RaynorShyne #57 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 17:02

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View PostF1O1, on Mar 24 2019 - 09:38, said:

1) All we know so far, numerous arty are singled out for specified nerfs such as shell velocity and loop. 

2) Arty damage at the edge of burst radius width is being reduced 10%. Arty stun effect at the edge being reduced 10%

3) Arty minimum stun timer nerf. Going from depending on minimum stun - damage caused ratio of 45-55, to 40-60.  (dmg more important for figuring out stun caused)

4) Arty stun reductions upon striking already stun vehicles, some just reduced, weaker stacks removed altogether. 

5) Super heavy spall liner buff and benefit. 

 

1) a 're-balancing'.  We don't know the full extent of the changes, but an over-all 15% reduction in effectiveness will need to be countered by something.  Perhaps a small boost in alpha?

2) see #1:  You're correct that this is what they're currently testing.  Again - offset by?

3) This is going to be adjusted accordingly.  

4) Stacks can be accounted for.  Seasoned arty players will wait for the heavies in the typical spots, gather, wait for the stun time to kick down, then hit when it reaches 0 for full stun.

5) SH Spall Liner will work as it should.  Good.  

 



Red_Miles #58 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 18:02

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View PostBurning_Haggis, on Mar 24 2019 - 04:32, said:

 

Afraid to post from primary, opinion dismissed.

 

This is primary - I just never had reason to post on the forums until I read the proposed changes, because let's face it, this is a terrible place to try to discuss anything about the game.  I lurk looking at advice threads for new tanks I've just purchased, and for every post about a topic there are three in reply calling that poster an idiot and giving five different conflicting opinions on how to best play that vehicle.

 

I only bothered logging in and doing this because of a friend's urging that if enough players give reasonable explanations instead of "IF U DO DIS I KWIT WG" they might actually take it into consideration.



redjkent #59 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 18:23

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if this means less arty being played all for it, most of the time the arty players on my team are so brain dead they wouldn't be able to help the team also i love the new wheelies its awesome to see them go wipe out arty no matter what team there on, arty is like guard dogs in fps games such an annoyance 

Rawrlynn #60 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 18:27

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They should change the stun duration to a diminishing returns setup as in some other games,  it seemed to work well there.  first time full stun time say 12 seconds, next one in short order adds 7, then 4 then 2 then does nothing  or something like that. 

 

the splash radius is sometimes stupid as there  is no consideration for cover/ angle of blast/cover. I'll miss getting the kill on the medium trying to hide with the S51 but I can hit my targets anyways if given enough time for the shells to get there.  

 

the biggest issues of playing arty is mobility (many have little to no mobility), they have no armor and few HP and some can't even shot gun a close range target because of arc, long reloads in most cases and infinity aim times, not to mention many have slow shell time so whatever they aim at should move before the shell even gets there, and having to rely on team mates to spot and hold enemy in place long enough to shoot and shells to land (in many cases is almost impossible), too many city maps that restrict arty's ability to assist the team.   

 

biggest issues playing against arty is stun, excessive splash damage and *cough* not being able to shoot back at them directly (before it was the 1 in 50 chance of being one shot) 

 

there are more cons to playing arty then playing against them.  but the crybabies will cry and more changes will come.  






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