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Proposed SPG changes: Why they are a bad idea as presented.


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jeb2 #81 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 14:29

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View Post3bagsfull, on Mar 25 2019 - 02:38, said:

 

And what exactly is the problem with that?    A blind fire is a blind fire for all 15 players.    Blind fires when you know where to fire takes skill - no matter the class of the vehicle the player is playing.    It's not an exact science, but you really see the value of it with people who really know the maps.

 

One difference is that a tank with, say, a 5 seconds reload can fire somewhere else fairly soon.  An arty with, say, a 39 second reload cannot.

jeb2 #82 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 14:35

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WG could also think outside the box entirely.

 

Have the arty be off-board.  If an arty wants to move to get different map in range, the player toggles something and has to wait until the shift is complete.

 

Then, if the arty's team loses, his vehicle is destroyed at battle end, just as afk tanks are - and the XP is distributed among the winners (or possibly just the survivors of the winners).

 

Arty players still have skin in the game, but the wheelies have to fight tanks.



owlgator #83 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 16:06

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View Postjeb2, on Mar 25 2019 - 07:35, said:

WG could also think outside the box entirely.

 

Have the arty be off-board.  If an arty wants to move to get different map in range, the player toggles something and has to wait until the shift is complete.

 

Then, if the arty's team loses, his vehicle is destroyed at battle end, just as afk tanks are - and the XP is distributed among the winners (or possibly just the survivors of the winners).

 

Arty players still have skin in the game, but the wheelies have to fight tanks.

 

This is somewhat related to a previous post I read about arty changes - give an arty player a tank to light up a target so it still has the arty firing capability but now risks being spotted like any other tank AND doesn't have a satellite mode for spotting.



Rigour67 #84 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 16:11

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This thread is a pretty good example of how difficult it is for WG to get any sort of intelligent/useful feedback from the player base.

 

The OP's posting is thoughtful and sober, and we went down into the racism cesspool with the trolls pretty fast.

 

There's clearly a base of players who dislike arty and will not be happy with any change short of its complete removal.

 

Leaving them out of the discussion, I can see why people dislike the stun mechanic.  But almost no-one is showing any evidence with data to support the notion that SPGs are too powerful pre this coming nerf.  It's all very much anecdotes which reflect their personal biases.

Would we nerf any other class like this without data?

So Ok we're dialing the stun mechanic down a notch, well and good.
Will there be anything buffed to compensate?  WG is coy about that but rest assured, any "improvements" to SPG performance to compensate for the stun nerf will be greeted with howls of dismay by the SPG haters.  WG can't really win here.
 



HeraldricKnight #85 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 17:08

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View PostRigour67, on Mar 25 2019 - 15:11, said:

The OP's posting is thoughtful and sober, and we went down into the racism cesspool with the trolls pretty fast.

 

So people that disagree with the OP's 'friend's insistence' are trolls, and one person dips into tepid racism, we're all racists. No soapboxing here, folks. And sober? What? 

 

View PostRigour67, on Mar 25 2019 - 15:11, said:

Leaving them out of the discussion, I can see why people dislike the stun mechanic.  But almost no-one is showing any evidence with data to support the notion that SPGs are too powerful pre this coming nerf.  It's all very much anecdotes which reflect their personal biases.

 

Except that Wargaming is changing the stun mechanic, so the logical guess you can take from that is that A) The majority of the player base hates its current rendition, and B) They explained why they changed it IN the video. Regardless of what we think, there was something clearly wrong with how Artillery functioned. 

 

View PostRigour67, on Mar 25 2019 - 15:11, said:

 WG can't really win here.

 

If they insist keeping a class in this game that's impossible to balance, tough. That's their fault. This is the same debacle World of Warships had with Aircraft Carriers; you throw in a single class that is utterly dependent on RNG, compensating it reliable damage if it misses, you're are going to have a mess of a class on your hands. 

 

The players that are bad at PvP will insist on keeping it, while the good players will always wish it gets removed entirely, or has the RNG + Reliable damage combo drastically changed. 



Rigour67 #86 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 17:23

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View PostWhiteBishop, on Mar 25 2019 - 16:08, said:

 

So people that disagree with the OP's 'friend's insistence' are trolls, and one person dips into tepid racism, we're all racists. No soapboxing here, folks. 

 

 

 

 

Sir, if you wish to have a reasonable discussion with me, do not begin by absurdly distorting what I said.

Your opening response marks you as a troll in my books and eliminates any optimism that discussing any matter with you will be anything other than a waste of time.

Which is a shame, because I do see some value in some of your subsequent points, but there we are.
 


Edited by Rigour67, Mar 25 2019 - 17:24.


3bagsfull #87 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 17:33

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View Postjeb2, on Mar 25 2019 - 13:29, said:

 

One difference is that a tank with, say, a 5 seconds reload can fire somewhere else fairly soon.  An arty with, say, a 39 second reload cannot.

 

Depends on if that arty player is going to be holding his shot for 40 seconds waiting for the "perfect" target - because if that is the case he should have just took the blind shot.    See that a lot watching streamers, very good players who ping the map letting the entire team know there is a tank they can't see at X position - and nobody fires at it.   He'll take his next shot into that location and trigger that guy to want to get out of dodge, and take that blind damage with him - and his entire team missed a golden opportunity in the process - especially the arty who missed a chance to put a round in that Scorpion G's grille.

 

In real life that is EXACTLY how artillery works.   You cannot see targets, you just fire at coordinates on the ground your allies ask you fire at.    The only issue in WoT is the level of trust between the blind firer and the guy giving him the information.   People pinging maps incessantly for no reason really destroys that trust relationship when a teammate really is pinging valuable information - it gets lost in the rinse cycle.



GRINCH7777 #88 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 17:57

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"The point isn't to whine about armored cars"

 

....why not....whining resulted in not one or two but THREE arty nerfs......the wheeled lights are too fast, too hard to hit and OP.......maybe whining will get results .



Red_Miles #89 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 18:02

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View PostWhiteBishop, on Mar 25 2019 - 17:08, said:

 

OP's 'friend's insistence'

 

I have gone from legitimately confused, to legitimately amused at this point.  Of everything in my OP you could focus on to try to discredit the rest, you've chosen to target this supposed lack of 'optimistic friend' you repeatedly insist I don't have who I platoon with whenever we both have the time available to play.  Literally the most unrelated thing you could counter with in any discussion of any points I raised.

Edited by Red_Miles, Mar 25 2019 - 18:02.


Red_Miles #90 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 18:07

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View PostGRINCH7777, on Mar 25 2019 - 17:57, said:

"The point isn't to whine about armored cars"

 

....why not....

 

Because that, my friend, is not the purpose of this specific thread, and unlike some people I like to keep things more or less on topic.  I used the introduction of armored cars solely because their ability to zoom in, pump out medium damage with medium average pen - just enough to reliably pen artillery and deal with their traditionally lower HP values - and then zoom out before a lot of tanks can even get their turrets rotated around, is a direct counter to enemy artillery when placed in even middlingly skilled hands.  The point was to explain their role as a direct counter to artillery within the average WoT round's playstyle and structure, that was recently introduced prior to this announced nerf.

3bagsfull #91 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 18:22

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View PostRigour67, on Mar 25 2019 - 15:11, said:

This thread is a pretty good example of how difficult it is for WG to get any sort of intelligent/useful feedback from the player base.

 

The OP's posting is thoughtful and sober, and we went down into the racism cesspool with the trolls pretty fast.

 

There's clearly a base of players who dislike arty and will not be happy with any change short of its complete removal.

 

Leaving them out of the discussion, I can see why people dislike the stun mechanic.  But almost no-one is showing any evidence with data to support the notion that SPGs are too powerful pre this coming nerf.  It's all very much anecdotes which reflect their personal biases.

Would we nerf any other class like this without data?

So Ok we're dialing the stun mechanic down a notch, well and good.
Will there be anything buffed to compensate?  WG is coy about that but rest assured, any "improvements" to SPG performance to compensate for the stun nerf will be greeted with howls of dismay by the SPG haters.  WG can't really win here.
 

 

Arty isn't a tank, it doesn't get nerfed it gets balanced - it's what you do to make sure a support class doesn't destroy the entertainment value of the 80+ % of the player base that knowingly put their tank in harms way to contest a game.

 

I don't play this game any more, but I get enjoyment out of watching good players play it watching streams.    When they play like a Baboon (rarely) they deserve to get punished.   When they do everything they are supposed to managing their tank, accounting for all the enemies seen and unseen, take proper driving approaches to avoid crossfires and the sole barrier to their being able to perform is getting dumped on by 2-3 arty - it's not entertainment.   Not for him, his teammates or the viewing audience - it's sad and pathetic that very good game play is allowed to get punished from a player he can't possibly retaliate against in a PvP game.



GRINCH7777 #92 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 18:27

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View PostcKy_, on Mar 23 2019 - 21:51, said:

 

That's because the typical artillery player doesn't know enough about the game to complain. They have absolutely no clue what's going on. Look at WhineMaker or SchudleBop or whatever his name is. 

 

One of them thinks that Blitz is an appropriate alternative to PC WoT.

 

The other thinks that to outplay someone, one has to simply shoot them (just once, not even kill them, just shoot them).

 

LOL.......with less than 2K games you couldnt possible know wthyou are talking about OR you dont have the Balls to post on your regular account- arty has gotten nerfed three times since I started playing it and I've adjusted and am still causing good damage and kicking the sh&& out of whiners whose non-stop complaining seem to get them what they want ....again......yet another arty nerf.

Rigour67 #93 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 18:38

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View Post3bagsfull, on Mar 25 2019 - 17:22, said:

 

Arty isn't a tank, it doesn't get nerfed it gets balanced - it's what you do to make sure a support class doesn't destroy the entertainment value of the 80+ % of the player base that knowingly put their tank in harms way to contest a game.

 

I don't play this game any more, but I get enjoyment out of watching good players play it watching streams.    When they play like a Baboon (rarely) they deserve to get punished.   When they do everything they are supposed to managing their tank, accounting for all the enemies seen and unseen, take proper driving approaches to avoid crossfires and the sole barrier to their being able to perform is getting dumped on by 2-3 arty - it's not entertainment.   Not for him, his teammates or the viewing audience - it's sad and pathetic that very good game play is allowed to get punished from a player he can't possibly retaliate against in a PvP game.

 

With respect, this isn't so much an argument as it is you simply reframing the terminology to fit your opinion.

"Arty isn't a tank".  Ok, whatever. Your vision of what the game should and shouldn't be may not be the same as others.  Wheeled vehicles aren't tanks, but that in itself is not an argument to decrease their influence on the game.  

"It doesn't get nerfed, it gets balanced."  Let's try again not to get tied up with semantics.
The stun mechanic seems to be on its way to becoming less powerful.
If we can see that truth, that suggests to me two probable situations:
1)  There will be no corresponding buffs in other areas.  Because the present formulation makes arty too powerful, they need to have their overall ability to influence the game decreased.  I submit this statement might require actual data to support it.
2)  There will "balancing" improvements to one or more other aspect of arty (faster reloads, more damage) to prevent them from becoming too underpowered.

Your assertion that they are "support" vehicles rather neatly avoids the entire question.  If you arbitrarily believe that those who play arty should have less influence on the match outcome than, for example, those who play lights, practically any diminishment of artillery is acceptable.

 

I do understand that a "stun mechanic" does not make for happy gamers.  But I suspect those who hate arty will hate arty.  You could eliminate stun completely as a mechanic, they'd still want arty gone, because they don't like getting hit out of nowhere.  Of course, if a camped TD does it based on a radio relay, that's OK, because line of sight maybe?



3bagsfull #94 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 18:52

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Seriously, arty isn't a tank.   It has to dig spades to let the earth absorb the recoil forces which are orders of magnitude higher than any tank uses - and has to be to make those rounds fly as high and as far as they do.    Understand that first.   Arty is not a tank, never has been, never will be.

 

In a PvP game, if you allow players to target and eliminate other player with no possible chance of ever immediately being able to retalliate - you have to BALANCE that vehicle so it doesn't destroy the gameplay.    That much is a given no matter the game.    

 

That is your foundation for any balancing of the arty class.    WoT created arty to be an indirect sniper, which is 180 degrees from what the class is in real life.   It would be the equivalent of giving Light Tanks the armor of a Heavy Tank, the gun of a Heavy Tank and still allowing them to have all the advantages of the Light Tank class - it would be imbalanced and would need to be rebalanced lest it be a complete mockery.

 

--------------

 

There are only 2 ways to balance arty.

1)  Reduce the amount in a battle to sensible support levels and allow them to keep their damage.

2)  Rebalance them so that 2-3 of them cannot destroy the balance of the game

 

They have chosen not to do #1.



Rigour67 #95 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 19:04

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I think you and I have very different notions of how realistically WoT is required to meet certain real-world parallels in order to maintain validity.

I'm not so much prepared to argue that arty isn't a tank as I consider that to be pretty much irrelevant to the entire matter under discussion.  Literally dozens of machines in play here bear little or no resemblance to real world tanks.

You speak of the "balance" of the game.  Rather than us each having our opinions about that, would you agree that data would be our best indicators of whether something's influence was out of balance?  Because, again if one sees the game as somehow bound to certain notions (e.g. direct fire), literally any arty violates those concepts and doesn't belong in the game, no matter how few or how significantly nerfed.


 



bowtech65 #96 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 19:29

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All I can say is that if you are going to keep making arty less playable eliminate it from the game and give me back all I have invested. It used to be fun to play artynow it is a waste of time and credits. Kill it off all together give all the people back the x and credits. then we can get back to playing

 



3bagsfull #97 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 19:37

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View PostRigour67, on Mar 25 2019 - 18:04, said:

I think you and I have very different notions of how realistically WoT is required to meet certain real-world parallels in order to maintain validity.

I'm not so much prepared to argue that arty isn't a tank as I consider that to be pretty much irrelevant to the entire matter under discussion.  Literally dozens of machines in play here bear little or no resemblance to real world tanks.

You speak of the "balance" of the game.  Rather than us each having our opinions about that, would you agree that data would be our best indicators of whether something's influence was out of balance?  Because, again if one sees the game as somehow bound to certain notions (e.g. direct fire), literally any arty violates those concepts and doesn't belong in the game, no matter how few or how significantly nerfed.


 

 

I'm an Artilleryman in real life.    I think the dynamic they use in Frontlines is PERFECT, the only thing they need to adjust is just how many on each team have Artillery strikes/Air strikes to sensible numbers.     The actual human player should be playing the role of forward observer, involved in the fray - not sitting in the back of the map.      That is 1-3 fewer tanks to engage in the battle every time arty enters a match that you don't see in Frontlines.



Rigour67 #98 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 19:51

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View Post3bagsfull, on Mar 25 2019 - 18:37, said:

 

  I think the dynamic they use in Frontlines is PERFECT, the only thing they need to adjust is just how many on each team have Artillery strikes/Air strikes to sensible numbers.     The actual human player should be playing the role of forward observer, involved in the fray - not sitting in the back of the map.      That is 1-3 fewer tanks to engage in the battle every time arty enters a match that you don't see in Frontlines.

 

I doubt they capture this but I wonder how many people begin Frontlines battles playing arty and then (voluntarily or not) switch to something else and never go back to arty for the rest of the match.

HeraldricKnight #99 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 20:01

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View PostRigour67, on Mar 25 2019 - 16:23, said:

 

Sir, if you wish to have a reasonable discussion with me, do not begin by absurdly distorting what I said.

Your opening response marks you as a troll in my books and eliminates any optimism that discussing any matter with you will be anything other than a waste of time.

View PostRigour67, on Mar 25 2019 - 15:11, said:

The OP's posting is thoughtful and sober, and we went down into the racism cesspool with the trolls pretty fast.

 

 

Where is the lie? If pointing out your flaws deems me a 'troll' (and a racist apparently) and you ignored the rest of the post, you're no better, and acting so sanctimonious makes you look incredibly shallow.



3bagsfull #100 Posted Mar 25 2019 - 20:02

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View PostRigour67, on Mar 25 2019 - 18:51, said:

 

I doubt they capture this but I wonder how many people begin Frontlines battles playing arty and then (voluntarily or not) switch to something else and never go back to arty for the rest of the match.

 

Once they switch, they are dependent on someone else not jumping into that slot in order to get back in it.    With the sheer amount of people that likely give up trying to spawn in with arty with the long queue, they likely would hold that "vacant" slot with a death grip if someone vacated it.    




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