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Looking at tank stats I noticed something alarming


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Necrolegion #1 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 04:58

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Don't really know how to word this... But ever since the T-44s, T-54s, etc got buffed, and introduction of 3-5-7 MM, I started to notice the big difference in performance between tanks and tiers. I've been suggesting buffs to tanks for a while now and it feels like it is always ignored by WG and people here start flaming me for ignoring historical accuracy, but looking at the hard data made me realize something.

 

NOTE: I have only looked at mediums and heavies from tiers V-X. I have only posted my initial findings for mediums though, which I believe Is adequate enough to convey my message. 

 

EDIT: Adding Legend to clarify for those that cannot understand my point.

 

Legend: DPM = Damage Per Minute, Std Pen = Standard Shell Penetration, Alpha = Damage

 

Standard Tech Tree & Campaign Reward Medium Tanks (tanks that a free player can earn)

Tier Average DPM Average Std Pen Average Alpha
X 2813.23 262.07 375
IX 2419.60 238.25 363.75
VIII 1962.53 196.33 272
VII 1965.99 155.47 196.33
VI 2025.78 140.71 150

 

EDIT: Completed the list of Tier V tanks

 

Tech Tree Mediums

Tier Average DPM Average Std Pen Average Alpha
V 1920.16 106.94 154.55

 

Premium Mediums

Tier Average DPM Average Std Pen Average Alpha
V 1763.91 106.45 105

 

Premium & CW Reward Tanks Medium Tanks

Tier Average DPM Average Std Pen Average Alpha
X 2946.75 262.75 375
VIII 1926.01 206.5 269.5
VII 2013.83 157 163.33

 

The average DPM, Pen, and Alpha damage seem to stagnate at tiers VII-VIII; meaning that performance doesn't really increase with a jump in tier. Now I know that it is believed, by many, that at these tiers you start losing credits (where it starts to become harder to play without premium account time). I believe this staggering was purposefully done by WG to try and persuade players to buy premium account time and premium tanks to pad the decrease in income. This was a model that perhaps worked great in the early days when there weren't many broken tanks, but over time this has only done damage and I will try to explain why.

 

The reason why players have a hard time playing bottom tier at Tier VII & VIII is because the power difference between VII & VIII vs XI or X is really big. Power level from IX and X isn't that big and is why Tier IX feels like a great tier to play because the difference in DPM, Pen, and Alpha aren't that big. You can actually deal with a tier X tank while playing a tier IX tank as long as you play a little smart. When you now throw in a Tier VIII tank, they struggle a lot to deal with tanks that are 1 or 2 tiers higher because the power level is just that big. If a tier IX tank decides to throw themselves at you, there is very little you can do if you are a VII or VIII tank and it doesn't matter if the tier IX player is skilled or not. They will have the DPM and other superior characteristics to deal with you.

 

This isn't even the entire scope of the power difference. Looking at turret armors too reveals a big gap between X (187.14) & IX (175) vs VII (134.4). I believe WG has realized the problem with the power gap with recent premium tank releases such as the Lansen C (2176.4 DPM) or reworked T-44s (190mm turret armor + 2085.71 DPM). 

 

How can we fix this?

 

I believe the solution to the MM problem and the big power gaps is to simply introduce sweeping DPM and Pen buffs as well as Alpha readjustments across most tiers. Of course this is just an oversimplification and every tank would need to be adjusted individually.. Something that I am looking at too. See this thread.

 

Premium & Tech Tree Medium Tanks

Tier

 

Current Avg DPM Suggested Avg DPM Current Avg Std Pen Suggested Avg Std Pen
VIII 1944.3 2200 201.42 210
VII 1989.9 2100 156.24 185

 

Why would this work?

 

I believe this would work because Wargaming has already designed the cost to operate these tanks to diminish from tier VII-X. Reasons for buying premium time would not change so this wouldn't really affect economy. Having similar or competent DPM and other characteristics would, in my opinion, boost confidence in players to perform well when bottom tiered. You would know that if you play a little smart, you could deal with a tank 1 or 2 tiers higher than you. There wouldn't really be a need for MM changes, in my opinion, if power levels grew constantly without stagnating like we currently have (VII & VIII).

 

Why should we consider these changes?

 

You average Joe who plays WoT probably skims over the hard data all the time when they press BATTLE and probably attributes their failures to hacks and broken tanks. In reality, they probably fail because the game has been designed this way and remained unchanged for years. Wargaming hasn't really touched DPM and other characteristics in years, except in some recent branch additions and premium tanks! I believe it is about time Wargaming looked into this. MM changes in my opinion will not change our resentment, unless it becomes all same tier, which I doubt will ever happen (outside of game modes like Front Lines or Grand Battles).

 

I also don't see this discussed here on the forums (General or Feedback sections) where supposedly WG staff read, so I feel like this has to be brought up more often. This is nowhere near a comprehensive list of changes as there are other factors to consider that I have yet to look at, such as terrain resistances, armor values and dispersion & accuracy values. I am also looking at other tank classes like LT, TDs and HTs. Reason why I posted this in general is because I want to hear what other players think. I would like this to become a discussion for Wargaming to look at and consider in the future.

 

For Wargaming NA staff to consider...

 

You guys could probably introduce changes faster if WG RU opened up some kind of sandbox mode for you to internally test and adjust tanks in a remote and closed off environment. In a sandbox mode, you could simply adjust the numbers/parameters and test. With perhaps even more special permission from the devs, you could even test these changes on live servers by having your staff play these modified tanks in live battles. Like you could create something like M26_Pershing_Test tank (a fully elited M26 Pershing with modified characteristics) and play it on live server and look at player feedback and your own staff feedback and bring the hard data to WG RU devs to analyze. 

 

Wargaming RU takes too long to implement changes and usually, it feels as though they cater to Russian tanks and Russian audience only. Other nation branches feel like they are ignored for too long. I know something like this would be a monumental task to do for such a small team, but if you broke down the tank buff changes by region, you could speed the process up. Like NA team could test a select set of tanks, while EU, ASIA, etc test other sets of tanks. 

 

Rather than streaming with regular tanks, like you guys do in your weekly stream and Q&As, you could publish potential changes to select tanks on your website, test them during live streams (Tragic and Cabbage and the rest of your streamers) and ask for feedback from your audience. You could even get your CCs (community contributors) to test these changes with special modified tanks and give you feedback. 

 

Whatever method you end up developing for testing and buffing tanks, it needs to happen sooner rather than later. 

 

TLDR

 

Problem:

Tank performance seems to stagnate (slow or not change) when jumping to tier VII & VIII. When looking at performance differences between tier IX and X the jump in power isn't that big, but when you compare the power jump from VIII to IX, the power difference is big! There is a 457 average DPM (damage per minute) jump when going from VIII to IX. Compare that to the jump in DPM when going from IX to X; 393 average DPM while gun penetration and alpha slightly increase. This power difference I believe is what causes all of this anger towards the +2 MM.

 

Solution:

Introduce a sweeping DPM boost to tiers VII & VIII. I propose increasing average DPM at tier VII to 2100 and average DPM at tier VIII to 2200, plus additional standard penetration buffs. This change would keep the power gap between tiers consistent and fair. This change would also make +2 MM more comfortable to play in (more bearable).


Edited by Necrolegion, Mar 24 2019 - 10:14.


cKy_ #2 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 05:00

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wow you figured literally nothing out gj

Necrolegion #3 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 05:08

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View PostcKy_, on Mar 23 2019 - 20:00, said:

wow you figured literally nothing out gj

 

Thank you for your constructive feedback! Must come easy when you aren't using your main.

cKy_ #4 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 05:17

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View PostNecrolegion, on Mar 24 2019 - 16:08, said:

 

Thank you for your constructive feedback! Must come easy when you aren't using your main.

 

I mean, I am using my main NA account though.

 

213 battles in 30 days, definitely not a main my dude



9999bc #5 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 05:25

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New premium tanks are designed to attract consumers. Look at old premium vs new premiums; old ones without buff stand no chance. WG destroyed balance when they introduced OP tanks like Defenders.

Moreover, WG claim a tank is balanced because its standard penetration is “average” ; however, these tanks are played using gold ammos in reality. This creates lazy medium tankers who don’t even bother flanking. Why would you? A med with gold ammo can pen heavies and TD in the front!

Remove gold ammo first before you attempt to balance a tank. Should limit gold ammo to 3-5 rounds in live games.

Necrolegion #6 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 05:50

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View Post9999bc, on Mar 23 2019 - 20:25, said:

New premium tanks are designed to attract consumers. Look at old premium vs new premiums; old ones without buff stand no chance. WG destroyed balance when they introduced OP tanks like Defenders.

Moreover, WG claim a tank is balanced because its standard penetration is “average” ; however, these tanks are played using gold ammos in reality. This creates lazy medium tankers who don’t even bother flanking. Why would you? A med with gold ammo can pen heavies and TD in the front!

Remove gold ammo first before you attempt to balance a tank. Should limit gold ammo to 3-5 rounds in live games.

 

Did you even read any of what I posted? I am precisely suggesting buffs to standard rounds. I also looked at premium tanks, which most fall in the underperforming category. Actually premium tank DPM is slightly lower than tech tree DPM for tier 8 tanks.

9999bc #7 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 06:06

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View PostNecrolegion, on Mar 24 2019 - 05:50, said:

 

Did you even read any of what I posted? I am precisely suggesting buffs to standard rounds. I also looked at premium tanks, which most fall in the underperforming category. Actually premium tank DPM is slightly lower than tech tree DPM for tier 8 tanks.

What about gold ammo after you buff the standard rounds?

 

Also DPM means nothing if you cannot hit or pen. AT 15 has better DPM than a Scorpion G but Scorpion does way better. 

 

Moreover autoloader and wheelies  bring other problems to the table. New Premiums are hastily pushed out, and they further destroy game balance. 



nuclearguy931 #8 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 06:16

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View PostcKy_, on Mar 23 2019 - 23:00, said:

wow you figured literally nothing out gj

 

I actually got a good laugh out of this reply.....+1   ^^

 



JakeTheMystic #9 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 07:04

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That's a whole lot of nonsense for someone who has 

 

Remove Enhanced Equipment and Directives (Copy & Paste This)

 

In their signature... 

 



Necrolegion #10 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 09:32

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View PostJakeTheMystic, on Mar 23 2019 - 22:04, said:

That's a whole lot of nonsense for someone who has 

 

Remove Enhanced Equipment and Directives (Copy & Paste This)

 

In their signature... 

 

 

Wait, how is that nonsense???? Please enlighten me.

 

I feel very strongly against enhanced equipment. Was against it since it was announced. It adds yet another barrier between regular players and those that can farm bonds (typically unicums). I mean how many more threads about hacks and cheats do you wanna see on this forum??? The randoms that encounter unicums cannot differentiate between skill + enhanced equipment vs hacks or cheats. 



Necrolegion #11 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 09:35

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View Postnuclearguy931, on Mar 23 2019 - 21:16, said:

 

I actually got a good laugh out of this reply.....+1   ^^

 

 

How about add some constructive criticism rather than adding non-constructive and pointless gifs? Did you even give my post a read or did you simply jump on that reroll's bandwagon?

Zuikakoo #12 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 09:51

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My general feeling is this isn't the only place where you had this kind of problem, this was a serious issue down in lower tiers as well.   WG did this by making T3 +1-2 matchmaking, and I believe this is a better solution than the 90 or more tank rebalance you suggested. 

Necrolegion #13 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 10:10

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View PostZuikakoo, on Mar 24 2019 - 00:51, said:

My general feeling is this isn't the only place where you had this kind of problem, this was a serious issue down in lower tiers as well.   WG did this by making T3 +1-2 matchmaking, and I believe this is a better solution than the 90 or more tank rebalance you suggested. 

 

Yeah, but the problem is the time spent playing those tiers. You spend way less time in the bottom tiers than you do in the higher tiers. This is what will continue to plague the majority of players as they advance through the tech tree.

 

The power difference between VIII (tier 8) to IX (tier 9) is really big. Too big to just ignore and say "Just give us +1/-2 MM for all tanks". Plus Wargaming, as I mentioned too, will probably never introduce anything resembling +1/-1 or +1/-2 MM. They are content with keeping things +2/-2 for the vast majority of tanks. 

 

My solution to MM is to just introduce across the board performance buffs to tanks tiers VII-VIII. This would solve the need for any special MM formats (or breaking it and creating long queue times as WG suggest). I also suggest a simple solution to having to deal with all of those tank balances in my part for Wargaming NA staff. This problem, I believe, can be tackled and solved thoroughly (or at the very least enough to bring some kind of balance). 

 

EDIT: Also thank you for your feedback! There are enough trolls and rerolls in this forum that it is hard to try and get anything changed (or get WG to listen to us).


Edited by Necrolegion, Mar 24 2019 - 10:11.


cKy_ #14 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 10:27

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View PostNecrolegion, on Mar 24 2019 - 20:35, said:

 

How about add some constructive criticism rather than adding non-constructive and pointless gifs? Did you even give my post a read or did you simply jump on that reroll's bandwagon?

 

​No one cares about your post mate. You wasted your time lol

SacherMasoc #15 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 11:18

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People flame you for ignoring historical accuracy in World of Tanks? Do you laugh your [edited]off?

ATruk #16 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 13:50

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View PostNecrolegion, on Mar 24 2019 - 01:32, said:

 

Wait, how is that nonsense???? Please enlighten me.

 

I feel very strongly against enhanced equipment. Was against it since it was announced. It adds yet another barrier between regular players and those that can farm bonds (typically unicums). I mean how many more threads about hacks and cheats do you wanna see on this forum??? The randoms that encounter unicums cannot differentiate between skill + enhanced equipment vs hacks or cheats. 

I am a regular player that earns bonds. Equipment and crew skills are not barriers. They are goals. 



nuclearguy931 #17 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 17:14

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View PostNecrolegion, on Mar 24 2019 - 03:35, said:

 

How about add some constructive criticism rather than adding non-constructive and pointless gifs? Did you even give my post a read or did you simply jump on that reroll's bandwagon?

 

I read both posts. I just agreed with his more.



redjkent #18 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 18:31

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plus one match making would solve a lot of problems, but that's not what you people want you want more nerfs because if you don't like a tank it needs to be nerfed right, give me a break

Necrolegion #19 Posted Mar 24 2019 - 19:52

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View PostcKy_, on Mar 24 2019 - 01:27, said:

 

​No one cares about your post mate. You wasted your time lol

 

You cared enough to post with your alt account.

 

View PostSacherMasoc, on Mar 24 2019 - 02:18, said:

People flame you for ignoring historical accuracy in World of Tanks? Do you laugh your [edited]off?

 

Yes... apparently people still believe tanks should be historically accurate even though World of Tanks has long since moved past that since like 2013.

 

View PostATruk, on Mar 24 2019 - 04:50, said:

I am a regular player that earns bonds. Equipment and crew skills are not barriers. They are goals. 

 

Tell me then, do you earn enough of them regularly to buy your enhanced equipment??? Not counting the free bonds Wargaming gave out. Since the bond intro, I've been able to earn around 1000 bonds. Enhanced equipment cost 5000 a piece. 

 

Most of the people who were able to farm bonds were able to do so in ranked battles by spamming nothing but gold ammo. Even then, I heard most had a hard time due to the amount of gold rounds they were receiving and other player toxicity that comes with ranked modes. Realistically, only if you had premium account time + credit boosters were you able to succeed in a mode designed to be as pay to win as it possibly could. Many popular community contributors completely skipped over ranked mode due to that fact and they opposed adding enhanced equipment + supporting the P2W shenanigans. 

 

View Postnuclearguy931, on Mar 24 2019 - 08:14, said:

 

I read both posts. I just agreed with his more.

 

This comes with a guy that wants to add premium tier 8 arty and make them broken again.. Yeah, I bet you read my post. 

 

View Postredjkent, on Mar 24 2019 - 09:31, said:

plus one match making would solve a lot of problems, but that's not what you people want you want more nerfs because if you don't like a tank it needs to be nerfed right, give me a break

 

+1 MM is what probably most want, but Wargaming will never give it to us because it would break their game. As many devs have stated, "it would lead to long queue times" am paraphrasing but basically that. Also, I am not asking for nerfs if you read my post, I am asking for buffs.



nuclearguy931 #20 Posted Mar 30 2019 - 19:16

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View PostJakeTheMystic, on Mar 24 2019 - 01:04, said:

That's a whole lot of nonsense for someone who has 

 

Remove Enhanced Equipment and Directives (Copy & Paste This)

 

In their signature... 

 

 

View PostNecrolegion, on Mar 24 2019 - 13:52, said:

 

This comes with a guy that wants to add premium tier 8 arty and make them broken again.. Yeah, I bet you read my post. 

 

 

 

Really priceless.

 

You got butthurt because someone made a comment disregarding your post because of your signature and then a couple of posts later you disregard mine because of my signature....lol.

 

And you want to be taken seriously?

 

Hypocrite much?






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