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Denazifying German tier 10s

german tech tree redesign buff nerf new vehicles wot world of tanks

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CeIestiaLudenberg #21 Posted Mar 28 2019 - 06:18

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I am not really sure what to say about this, so I'll let Dr. Phil do it for me.

 

Also about 2 years ago now 2 friends and I came up with this as our proposed change to the tech tree.



F1O1 #22 Posted Mar 28 2019 - 15:40

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View PostF1O1, on Mar 28 2019 - 03:20, said:

 

lt won't help at all.

 

Leopard 1 and Panzer wagon are not Panzer SS designs. They are cold war designs. And they still suck.

 

 

View PostDrB33t, on Mar 28 2019 - 03:23, said:

How would you improve the Leo and Panzer wagon? I admit they suck. Read my recommendations for those two tanks in the graphic.

 

Kanonen 90, being a TD like jag tiger 88 and AT15, having such low alpha damage for a TD tier 8 needs their DPM. Since it also does not have jag tiger 88 reduced +1MM it is entirely outclassed in tier 10 battles, it needs STA1 / M56 scorpion 90mm HEAT ammo, 275mm HEAT pen not 250. What is the point of having 238mm pen AP and 250mm HEAT? Makes absolutely no sense at all. Reduce its poor gun-movement dispersion too,  .15 is way too high for a non-turret low alpha TD

+ Fire rate increase to 10rd/min

+ HEAT pen increase to 275mm

+ Gun dispersion reduced to .23/.23/.10

 

Kanonen 105  (even French Canon D'105)  need severe buffs too, they are terrible. Consider yes, they have a tier 10  medium tank 105mm gun. So does charioteer? Look at charioteer DPM compared to theirs, and charioteer even has a turret? ? ? ? Kanone 105 relies on gun more than Canon D'105 because it has far less armour, so it should get slightly more DPM. Like Kanone 90, it too should get HESH secondary ammunition to give it utility against light armour targets

+ Fire rate increase to 5.36rd/min

+ HE shell pen increase to 105mm

 

RU251 needs to be re-made in image like the new HK30 premium light tank. Frontal gun depression reworked to -10 like the sides of the tank. Fire rate increase to make it more synonymous to stock T49 90mm gun. 

+ Fire rate increase to 8.96rd/min

+ Gun dep increases to -10 

 

How is it, all tier X med tanks except E50M get increases in DPM from tier lX? E50M has exact same DPM as E50, ridiculous. How is it, all tier X light tanks get DPM increase from tier lX, but again not Pz Wagen? Really? This trend needs to stop, this bigotry anti-German developer propaganda needs to stop, this is 2019 for goodness sakes. Pz Wagen needs DPM increases, needs alpha damage increase to 390 (again, all LT 105mm guns received alpha buff except German)  lt needs dispersion decreases, to how RU251 has them. lf the idea is that it should be lower DPM sniper, it needs pen increases compared to other light tanks.

+ Gun dispersion buffs, .12/.12/.08

+ Gun damage increase, 390/480. 

+ Pen increases, 248 AP 294 HEAT

+ Fire rate increase to 5.5rd/min

 

Leopard 1 is quite terrible. And this is odd, because leopard proto isn't too bad. lf leopard proto is acceptable, why leave Leopard 1 in such a terrible state? Makes sense though, E50M sucks too, so why not have their 'camo' design suck too. Like how AMX30 B, Cent A X, STB1 are - it is clear Leopard 1 needs a DPM increase. lt needs the same HESH secondary ammunition the German light tanks have, and Cent A X. Movement dispersions need RADlCAL reductions, as they are ridiculously high, more than many heavy tanks. A slight side armour increase, nothing notable but to only prevent 122mm gun side armour over-match would be appreciated. 

+ Fire rate increase to 6.98rd/min

+ HE ammunition pen increase, 105mm

+ Gun dispersion reductions, .13/.13/.08

+ Side armour increase to 45mm

 

These are quite modest changes, that really don't upset any balance. All these changes are carefully thought out, studying tech tree trends and balancing. Just my thoughts. Would any of these tanks become meta-game performers with these specified changes? Definitely not. WZ120G and S1 still kick the snot out of Kanone 90 and 105. T100LT and EBR105 are better active scouts than Pz Wagen, T100LT and 13105 are way better bush soft cover scouts. Sheridan is a way better pseudo-med damage dealer. Obj 140 and 907 and 430U still kick the crap out of Leo as combatant med tanks. These buffs are just catered to increase their random battle potential, which among peers they are lacking. 

 

 

 



DrB33t #23 Posted Mar 28 2019 - 18:05

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View PostVolcanic_lobster_220, on Mar 28 2019 - 04:43, said:

 

"The German line has been buffed enough. This is getting ridiculous"

1: I can't see WG adding Missiles to the game, that sounds like it would mess up balance and be too much work

2: Why would they make a Tier 10 that leads to another Tier 10 tank? Leopard 1 connected to Leopard 2K

3: Nobody wants new arty letalone two of them :/

The German line is buffed beyond its tier. At this point asking for more buffs is not the answer. A more permanent solution would be to bring them down a tier and then nerf them to fit within that new tier. The Tiger for example plays like a medium tank at tier 7 but at tier 6 it plays like a heavy tank if it is top tier--this makes sense. As for telling people to play it as a sniper: this applies to all tanks that are underwhelming.

 

Missiles would add another interesting gameplay dynamic and they wouldn't be OP at tier 10. There are plenty of ways to balance missiles: missile vehicles would hold only a small number of missiles, they would have low accuracy and lag when guiding them, the player would have to hold still while firing them at the target, the camo values would drop dramatically after firing, and the missile would create a smoke trail that could be traced even if the player was not spotted.

 

The Leopard 2K is an upgrade of the Leopard. That is why it is connected.

 

The arty would not be overpowered as they have lower calibers when compared to other arty. They would however have improved soft gun stats as well as being more mobile than other t10 arty.

 



DrB33t #24 Posted Mar 28 2019 - 18:17

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View PostCeIestiaLudenberg, on Mar 28 2019 - 05:18, said:

Also about 2 years ago now 2 friends and I came up with this as our proposed change to the tech tree.

 

A few questions:
-Why do you have two Mice at tier 10?
-Why did you move the Tiger and Tiger P down but not the Panther?
-What is a TurboPanther?
-The VK 70.01K at tier 6? Isn't that a Lowe?
-Can you tell me more about the KPz MR. It's interesting but all I found was this:


I also thought of using the ROS somewhere.



DrB33t #25 Posted Mar 28 2019 - 19:35

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View PostF1O1, on Mar 28 2019 - 14:40, said:

How is it, all tier X med tanks except E50M get increases in DPM from tier lX? E50M has exact same DPM as E50, ridiculous. How is it, all tier X light tanks get DPM increase from tier lX, but again not Pz Wagen? Really? This trend needs to stop, this bigotry anti-German developer propaganda needs to stop, this is 2019 for goodness sakes. Pz Wagen needs DPM increases, needs alpha damage increase to 390 (again, all LT 105mm guns received alpha buff except German)  lt needs dispersion decreases, to how RU251 has them. lf the idea is that it should be lower DPM sniper, it needs pen increases compared to other light tanks.

+ Gun dispersion buffs, .12/.12/.08

+ Gun damage increase, 390/480. 

+ Pen increases, 248 AP 294 HEAT

+ Fire rate increase to 5.5rd/min

I agree with you on everything except for the E50M which certainly shouldn't be a tier 10 and probably doesn't belong in the game. Is there a E75M? No. Is there is a E100M? No. The tank is unnecessary if the Leopard 2K existed. The Leopard 2K would work better at tier 10 than a second E50.

 

Despite belonging to a lineage the L2K fills the same role as the E50M with the benefit of higher penetration.

 

Spoiler

 



CeIestiaLudenberg #26 Posted Mar 28 2019 - 23:46

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http://forum.worldoftanks.asia/index.php?/topic/75521-german-tech-tree-proposals/

 

This is the thread from 2017 explaining most of them, though most of it we did off of the forums, and it did take quite a while to get it all done, and admittedly most of it was done by DeadArashi



Ferdilanz #27 Posted Mar 28 2019 - 23:59

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You propose nerfing the DW 2 when it has always been a stinker of a tank. I really just do not agree with any of these figures. Removing 128's from the upper tiers is really not a feasible option seeing as any other guns are unusable at tiers higher than 8.

DrB33t #28 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 03:29

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View PostFerdilanz, on Mar 28 2019 - 22:59, said:

You propose nerfing the DW 2

 

I propose nerfing it because it will be a tier lower. It would be OP at tier 3 with its current top gun. Plus, as per Wargaming's logic, some tanks need to be bad so that others can be good.

 

View PostCeIestiaLudenberg, on Mar 28 2019 - 22:46, said:

http://forum.worldoftanks.asia/index.php?/topic/75521-german-tech-tree-proposals/

 

This is the thread from 2017 explaining most of them, though most of it we did off of the forums, and it did take quite a while to get it all done, and admittedly most of it was done by DeadArashi

 

I like the added tank destroyers but overall I feel that there are too many paper tanks in that proposal. TurboPanther would be pretty neat if it had light tank mobility and could possibly branch off into the Leopard line.

 

Spoiler

Interesting.

 

Though I'm not sure on the correct thickness.

 

Some ideas:

https://armoredwarfa...edia.com/KPz_70

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBT-70

https://wiki.warthunder.com/KPz-70



AZandEL #29 Posted Mar 30 2019 - 00:33

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View PostDrB33t, on Mar 28 2019 - 02:59, said:

 

It's not. But German tanks are still overtiered and overbuffed.

 

hah thats rich. How long have you played? I mean recently? The German tree hasnt been OP in 4 years. For example they dont have a single autloader that isnt a LT.

 

PS the Japanese also were fascists, killed millions of innocents, and lost the War yet we see many of their make believe vehicles. Oh and dont look up Stalin or Mao



Mister_Avnas #30 Posted Mar 30 2019 - 01:43

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why dont we make maus t9 and have ratte

Harvester_0f_Sorrow #31 Posted Mar 30 2019 - 23:41

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lol, seriously, this is garbage!!! the Russians have the op tanks and this is just a video game. They do have a few great tanks but Russian meds these days counter them that's for sure.

Goat_Rodeo #32 Posted Mar 31 2019 - 00:16

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Okay, I see what you’re getting at here. Nice to see the Tiger 1 at tier 6 where it belongs. (Tiger 131 is a tier 6 with the mid tier 7 gun, so it’s sorta already there) I’d add another line of mediums tbh with the M47 and M48 as parallel tier 9 and 10. Maybe replace that utterly horrid pos the SP1C with the HWK 12 and a German M41 Bulldog at tier 8. 

Interesting ideas though. But the missile thing would be a little over the top for this game’s technical aspects for balance.



mworthy #33 Posted Mar 31 2019 - 00:46

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View PostDrB33t, on Mar 28 2019 - 12:05, said:

The German line is buffed beyond its tier. At this point asking for more buffs is not the answer. A more permanent solution would be to bring them down a tier and then nerf them to fit within that new tier. The Tiger for example plays like a medium tank at tier 7 but at tier 6 it plays like a heavy tank if it is top tier--this makes sense. As for telling people to play it as a sniper: this applies to all tanks that are underwhelming.

 

Missiles would add another interesting gameplay dynamic and they wouldn't be OP at tier 10. There are plenty of ways to balance missiles: missile vehicles would hold only a small number of missiles, they would have low accuracy and lag when guiding them, the player would have to hold still while firing them at the target, the camo values would drop dramatically after firing, and the missile would create a smoke trail that could be traced even if the player was not spotted.

 

The Leopard 2K is an upgrade of the Leopard. That is why it is connected.

 

The arty would not be overpowered as they have lower calibers when compared to other arty. They would however have improved soft gun stats as well as being more mobile than other t10 arty.

 

 

i would like proof, actual gameplay footage of german tanks being overbuffed, the fact they are overtiered proves they are underpowered not overpowered. and also may i remind you Arty have low accuracy and low amounts of shells and i don't need to tell you how many people still complain about them, we do not need anymore high damage weapons in the game. 

64sherman #34 Posted Mar 31 2019 - 03:37

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View PostPAP0, on Mar 27 2019 - 20:43, said:

I don't see any Swastika on any of the German tier 10s. If you're offended by the Iron Cross, the Iron Cross isn't a symbol of Nazism.

 

Has nothing to do with symbols. it has has to do with the fact we have tanks designed in the 1940s fighting vehicles from the cold war. 

 

View PostKaiserWilhelmShatner, on Mar 27 2019 - 20:47, said:

 

German vehicles get buffed?

 

They are buffed well beyond what they should be and they still manage to be complete crapcompared to soviet vehicles because it's not a fair fight.  We have early MBTs fighting super heavies from the 1940s.  

 

View PostPAP0, on Mar 27 2019 - 20:55, said:

 

Since when is this game based on historical figures anyways?

 

Since the very begining.  You do realize wargaming employs historians who get paid [edited] tons of money right?  Believe it or not, some people actually like it when things in game match the real thing as best as possible while still staying within the scope of an arcade game.  That means historical armor values, and correctly modeled vehicles.  Hardly anybody is arguing against hitpoints, or any other arcade feature.  

 

View PostDesert_Fox_1969, on Mar 27 2019 - 21:00, said:

Looks like someone has way too much time on their hands

 

God forbid someone take time to make a well thought out a reasonable post.  Jesus.  

 

View PostGarandster, on Mar 27 2019 - 21:27, said:

 

You should still look into finding replacements that fit the play style of each line going down instead of dumping them into a single tank. I think that is where the big issue is at with doing a post-war rework and not copying other tanks that won't fit the German play style at all.

 

The fact of the matter is tanks became standardized.  If this game went all the way to modern tanks more or less every tech tree would end with one tank, an MBT.  Maybe an arty, and some anti tank vehicles.  Every tech tree starts with 1 vehicle, I don't see why they can't all end with one.  

 

View PostCeIestiaLudenberg, on Mar 27 2019 - 23:18, said:

I am not really sure what to say about this, so I'll let Dr. Phil do it for me.

 

Also about 2 years ago now 2 friends and I came up with this as our proposed change to the tech tree.

 

Atrocious.  Maus II and Maus on the same tier?  Whats even the point then?  

 

View PostFerdilanz, on Mar 28 2019 - 16:59, said:

You propose nerfing the DW 2 when it has always been a stinker of a tank. I really just do not agree with any of these figures. Removing 128's from the upper tiers is really not a feasible option seeing as any other guns are unusable at tiers higher than 8.

 

God forbid the tank be nerfed to its historical configuration and dropped a tier.  Don't want to have any decent balanced vehicles amiright.  

 

View PostAZandEL, on Mar 29 2019 - 17:33, said:

 

hah thats rich. How long have you played? I mean recently? The German tree hasnt been OP in 4 years. For example they dont have a single autloader that isnt a LT.

 

PS the Japanese also were fascists, killed millions of innocents, and lost the War yet we see many of their make believe vehicles. Oh and dont look up Stalin or Mao

 

How bad or your reading comprehension skills?  OVER TIERED means UNDERPERFORMING.  Not overpowered.  It means the complete opposite of what you think it does.  Put down the whiskey and think before you type.  Also, I'd like to see these so called fake japanese tanks, other than the O-Ni and the O-Ho.  Which could easily be replaced by an historically accurate version of the O-I and the Chi-Se.  Also, yeah... stalin and mao killed a bunch of people... I too passed middle school social studies... congrats.  

 

View PostMister_Avnas, on Mar 29 2019 - 18:43, said:

why dont we make maus t9 and have ratte

 

As funny as this sounds its the direction we're going with the current powercreep.  But I would propose the Maus be a tier 9 and just research the E-100 and the Maus II.  

 

View PostGoat_Rodeo, on Mar 30 2019 - 17:16, said:

Okay, I see what you’re getting at here. Nice to see the Tiger 1 at tier 6 where it belongs. (Tiger 131 is a tier 6 with the mid tier 7 gun, so it’s sorta already there) I’d add another line of mediums tbh with the M47 and M48 as parallel tier 9 and 10. Maybe replace that utterly horrid pos the SP1C with the HWK 12 and a German M41 Bulldog at tier 8. 

Interesting ideas though. But the missile thing would be a little over the top for this game’s technical aspects for balance.

 

Absolutely.  The americans are overtiered as well.  Tier 8 pershing is a joke.  If it was historically accurate id play the [edited] out of it at tier 7.  

Btw there are guided missles in Wot Blitz from what i understand.  



64sherman #35 Posted Mar 31 2019 - 03:41

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View PostDrB33t, on Mar 27 2019 - 20:36, said:

The German tier tens need to be denazified. This is for two reasons: First, it's kind of weird to have Nazi vehicles at the end of a game that runs into the cold war. Second, the failure to include post-war German vehicles has led to German tanks being uptiered beyond their effective scope. This has lead to all kinds of crazy buffs to German vehicles; buffs which are completely unnecessary. Here is my suggestion for a German tech tree redesign.

 

Questions will be answered. Modifications can be made if you convince me. Discuss.

 

Spoiler

 

Enjoy:popcorn:

 

Glad to see more posts about the blatant overtiering of german vehicles.  It's only a matter of time before enough people realize the Tiger should be a tier 6.  And from there the whole stack of cards (the tanks) all start falling down (the tech tree in the form of tier drops.)  Keep fighting the good fight.  

DrB33t #36 Posted Mar 31 2019 - 04:06

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View Post64sherman, on Mar 31 2019 - 02:41, said:

 

And from there the whole stack of cards (the tanks) all start falling down (the tech tree in the form of tier drops.) 

 

Indeed. In fact I wouldn't mind if the entirety of tier 1 was removed because its basically a waste of a tier. Low tiers are the worst and actively discourage new players from grinding the game. IMO the tiers don't start getting playable until tier 4/5 because then at least you have some armor and hp to make mistakes--incredibly important for new players. I think that in addition to moving the German heavies/mediums down a tier they should scrap tier 1 to make way for new tier 10s like the Leo 2AV, T72, XM1, missiles, etc. Ideally the last Nazi tanks should be at tier 8 not tier 9 like in my layout.

 

That means the KV1 would be at tier 4, the Tiger at tier 5, the Tiger 2 at tier 6, the IS3 at tier 7, the E75 at tier 8, the Leopard 1 at tier 9, and the XM1 at tier 10. T8 premium tanks (now at tier 7) would be sold at the same price and that would allow WG to sell new tier 8 premiums at an even higher price--->That is WG's incentive for doing this.

 

A friend at work told me that he tried WOT but that he gave up on it because he didn't like being one shot by invisible tanks. The low tiers are nightmare for new players and its certainly not the way to lure in new players.



rogombor #37 Posted Apr 01 2019 - 16:47

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View PostDrB33t, on Mar 27 2019 - 23:47, said:

 

This has nothing to do with symbols. This has to do with WW2 tanks at a cold war tier despite that faction losing the war.

 

They didn't lose because of their tanks being inferior. As Stalin famously said, quantity is a quality of its own. There's nothing a Tiger could do when surrounded by 7 Shermans even if each Sherman was inferior in every single way imaginable.

As for the missiles, WG has always been opposed to even feature smoothbore guns. You're trying to bring modern mechanics to a game that is mechanically based on the WWII era.



rogombor #38 Posted Apr 01 2019 - 17:00

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View Post64sherman, on Mar 30 2019 - 23:37, said:

The fact of the matter is tanks became standardized.  If this game went all the way to modern tanks more or less every tech tree would end with one tank, an MBT.  Maybe an arty, and some anti tank vehicles.  Every tech tree starts with 1 vehicle, I don't see why they can't all end with one. 

 

Because IT'S A GAME and because it'd be bad business. One tank is about 250k XP, give or take and and 6.1M credits. The Soviet tree has 12 researchable tier 10s. That's 2,477,400 XP and 73.2M credits. Huge potential for XP and credit conversion using gold.



DrB33t #39 Posted Apr 02 2019 - 04:51

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View Postrogombor, on Apr 01 2019 - 16:00, said:

 

Because IT'S A GAME and because it'd be bad business. One tank is about 250k XP, give or take and and 6.1M credits. The Soviet tree has 12 researchable tier 10s. That's 2,477,400 XP and 73.2M credits. Huge potential for XP and credit conversion using gold.

 

Hypothetically they could do it if they drop tier 1 and then "add" a tier 11 (which would actually just be tier 10). Every other tank in the game would stay the same price except for the new tier tens which would cost even more than the current tier 10s. Let's say each new tier 10 would cost 500-600K XP and 12-14 million credits. These top tier capstone tanks would be true MBTs:

-XM1 for US

-T72 or T72A or T72B or T80 for USSR

-Leopard 2AV for Germans

-OF40 for Italians

-Chieftain for UK

-AMX-40 for France

-Type 74 for Japan

-Stridsvagn 104 for Sweden

-PT-91 for Poland

-T62M for Czechs

-Type 69 or Type 79 for China

 

They could even have a tier 10 unlock token system like Armored Warfare where after grinding through any line in the tech tree of a particular nation you get a token to unlock one of a few tier 10s.

 

Dropping tier 1 would also allow them to sell more expensive tier 8 premiums and that would be their real motivation for adding new tier 10 MBTs.



PrimarchRogalDorn #40 Posted Apr 02 2019 - 19:33

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How about no? You're suggesting adding in tanks that would be functionally immune to nearly everything that's fired at them frontally, would have insanely good mobility, accuracy that would make the Grille 15 feel like a howitzer, and shells that would effectively ignore all armor.





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