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What determines these stats? or should I ask... who?

grille 15 grille15 stats traverse he high explosive highexplosive panther rhm

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DZGunner #1 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 03:32

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Hopefully these pictures work. What determines the penetration of HE shells? Is it the size of the gun? Is it just the ammo type? I don't understand how the Grille 15 can have a giant boom stick that has less penetration than a 105 on an ebr at t10. It even has the same gun, only longer, as the t8 RHM, and even that has more penetration... Added other tanks to the lineup to show the inconsistency with the tiers and how much penetration their HE has. ISU-152 has more than 2 T10 German TD's and ties with an E3. 

Secondly, and most annoyingly; Why is the traverse on the Grille so poor? What determines that? The game even says in vehicle details that it was using a panther chassis to mount a gun on... so I assume they just took the time to put a worse transmission in it while they were at it? Weight couldn't possibly be an issue as it weighs less than a panther. Power couldn't be the issue as it has more power as well, in fact the picture shows it has the best specific power or power to weight ratio... and even more surprising, the obj 260 only traverses with one track, and yet it still has a better traverse than the Grille. I don't know where else to go to contact WG about this so this is it I suppose. I get that the game isn't fair or balanced, but this is just plain inconsistent, even by the game's own rules.

 

HEdamage.jpg

 

TRAVERSE.jpg



death_stryker #2 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 04:07

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The EBRs' HE are supposed to be HEP-type rounds, similar to the one on the german lights and such. I don't see any particular reason why the Grille should have exceptionally low HE pen, but the bad traverse is definitely for balance reasons. Keep in mind that, before the nerf, such balance tweaks were justified.

 

Also, 

*tinfoil on*

It's German.



cKy_ #3 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 04:14

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WG determines the numbers.

GeorgePreddy #4 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 04:26

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Whatever WG believes it needs to be, for balance reasons, is what it will be.

 

It can't sensibly be anything else.

 

 

 

 

 

 



DZGunner #5 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 04:32

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The game just says "HE", so until WG is quoted or comes and corroborates your statement, I can't assume this is the case. Especially when the British have HESH, and its explicitly in the game, they should clarify that as being such as well, otherwise its leaving people like myself wondering why only some HE does more damage and has more penetration and some doesn't. At that point I have to assume it has to do with caliber and barrel length, which is exactly what isn't adding up.

As far as nerfing is concerned, the traverse wasn't a part of the nerf. It was apparently just garbage all along.

 

I'm just going by what their game says in the vehicle description, the plan was to use a panther chassis. People would always complain that certain tanks are "paper tanks", not in the sense that it had no armor, (ironic) but that it was never actually made. This one was claimed to have been planned to be mounted on a known, made, and used chassis, how could anyone possibly argue that its for balance, especially when they don't seem concerned with balancing any other problem vehicles in the game.

  • Grille 15 
    • Changed the reloading time for the 15cm Pak L/63 gun from 16.5s to 18s
    • Changed the gun depression angle for the 15cm Pak L/63 gun from -8 degrees to -7 degrees
    • Changed the reverse speed from 20km/h to 15km/h
    • Changed the engine power of Maybach NL 234 from 900 h.p. to 850 h.p.
    • Reduced velocity of the Pzgr. shell for the 5 cm Pak L/63 gun from 1350 to 1200

Edited by DZGunner, Mar 29 2019 - 08:32.


I_QQ_4_U #6 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 04:42

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Why did my Eld, Chanter and Ment all have different cast times on the exact same spell?

talkingdreams #7 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 04:44

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considering people whined so much about the WTE100 not being real when complaining about it being unbalanced, I find it pretty strange that war gaming wouldnt use the known stats of the panther traverse when making the grille. seems ignorant. The thing literally has no armor as it is, i dont see how increasing traverse is going to somehow make it broken. i thought that was the point, a highly mobile glass canon.

 
 
 
 

Edited by talkingdreams, Mar 29 2019 - 04:46.


Wrathin #8 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 04:54

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I never realized the 260 traversed with one track, you'd think it would be slower that way.

RC_1140 #9 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 05:28

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EBR has HESH, which gives it higher pen. The damage/pen on the others is probably how WG balanced them but could have something to do with shell weight or explosive filler. But I know pretty much nothing about those shells so I can't say much about that. 

talkingdreams #10 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 05:43

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RC_1140 you sound uneducated 

Edited by talkingdreams, Mar 29 2019 - 05:45.


DZGunner #11 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 05:45

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View PostRC_1140, on Mar 28 2019 - 20:28, said:

EBR has HESH, which gives it higher pen. The damage/pen on the others is probably how WG balanced them but could have something to do with shell weight or explosive filler. But I know pretty much nothing about those shells so I can't say much about that. 

Not true, and I don't think its acceptable for t8's to have higher pen, especially with the same or equivalent gun and ammo.

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Pipinghot #12 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 06:20

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View PostDZGunner, on Mar 28 2019 - 21:32, said:

What determines the penetration of HE shells?

...

What determines that?

Wargaming determines all of it, based on what they think is good for their game, just like every game maker does.

View PostDZGunner, on Mar 28 2019 - 21:32, said:

Secondly, and most annoyingly; Why is the traverse on the Grille so poor? What determines that? The game even says in vehicle details that it was using a panther chassis to mount a gun on... so I assume they just took the time to put a worse transmission in it while they were at it? Weight couldn't possibly be an issue as it weighs less than a panther. Power couldn't be the issue as it has more power as well, in fact the picture shows it has the best specific power or power to weight ratio... and even more surprising, the obj 260 only traverses with one track, and yet it still has a better traverse than the Grille. I don't know where else to go to contact WG about this so this is it I suppose. I get that the game isn't fair or balanced, but this is just plain inconsistent, even by the game's own rules.

You're already trying way to hard to think about realism, an argument which is a non-starter. You don't want to play a tanks game based on realism, you want to play a tanks game based on fun, which is why you're here.

 

You cannot selectively use realism as an argument in favor of what you want because that argument cuts both ways. No more 15 minute battles, no more magically healing dead crew, no more magically fixing your tracks during combat while people are actively firing at you, and so much more. This is not a game based on realism and never has been, you need to let go of that argument, it's going to get you nowhere.



Gang_Starr #13 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 06:46

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It's done for balance reasons, balance is more important than logic in a videogame.

KaiserWilhelmShatner #14 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 06:52

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View PostGang_Starr, on Mar 28 2019 - 21:46, said:

It's done for balance reasons, balance is more important than logic in a videogame.

 

This game has neither.:hiding:

Gang_Starr #15 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 06:54

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View PostKaiserWilhelmShatner, on Mar 29 2019 - 00:52, said:

 

This game has neither.:hiding:

 

:teethhappy:

DZGunner #16 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 07:13

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View PostPipinghot, on Mar 28 2019 - 21:20, said:

Wargaming determines all of it, based on what they think is good for their game, just like every game maker does.

You're already trying way to hard to think about realism, an argument which is a non-starter. You don't want to play a tanks game based on realism, you want to play a tanks game based on fun, which is why you're here.

 

You cannot selectively use realism as an argument in favor of what you want because that argument cuts both ways. No more 15 minute battles, no more magically healing dead crew, no more magically fixing your tracks during combat while people are actively firing at you, and so much more. This is not a game based on realism and never has been, you need to let go of that argument, it's going to get you nowhere.

 

Very weak argument. All the tanks in the game are based off either real or concept tanks, and the WTE100 was removed partly for this reason (not being real enough). You're right, I do want to play a tank game that's fun, and that's why I want to play the grille 15 and be able to fight tanks of my same tier. I want my t10 that I never asked for to have stats that are better than t8 tanks. 

Also please point out where I've selectively used realism, implying there were related topics that I neglected it in order to support my grievance.

So far I've pointed out that by the games own rules and stats, this tank is lacking, and all you've provided is that I'm being too realistic. You can't knock me for using the games own words and stats on itself, I didn't compare it to anything outside the game, that might be too realistic for you if I did...

Pipinghot #17 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 13:24

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View PostDZGunner, on Mar 29 2019 - 01:13, said:

View PostPipinghot, on Mar 28 2019 - 21:20, said:

Wargaming determines all of it, based on what they think is good for their game, just like every game maker does.

You're already trying way to hard to think about realism, an argument which is a non-starter. You don't want to play a tanks game based on realism, you want to play a tanks game based on fun, which is why you're here.

 

You cannot selectively use realism as an argument in favor of what you want because that argument cuts both ways. No more 15 minute battles, no more magically healing dead crew, no more magically fixing your tracks during combat while people are actively firing at you, and so much more. This is not a game based on realism and never has been, you need to let go of that argument, it's going to get you nowhere.

Very weak argument

No, although I understand why you wish it was.

View PostDZGunner, on Mar 29 2019 - 01:13, said:

All the tanks in the game are based off either real or concept tanks

Yes, just like movies are "based on a true story", accuracy always takes a back seat to other concerns. About 30 seconds after they are "based on" real or concept tanks WG (deliberately) ignores anything historical that interferes with their idea of quality game play and modifies anything they think they need to in order to make the tank fit into the game better. Game play is more important than historical accuracy, just like it is in every historical game. WG has modified the specs on every tank in the game at one time or another, and always in the name of improving whatever they think makes the game better to play (or more profitable, those two are not always the same thing).

View PostDZGunner, on Mar 29 2019 - 01:13, said:

and the WTE100 was removed partly for this reason (not being real enough).

That was the reason they gave but the reality was that the WTE was severely OP and their way of nerfing it was to give an excuse for removing and replacing it. WG is happy to talk about about something being historical, when it suits their purposes but it's always smoke and mirrors, being historical is never their first concern (this is an arcade game after all, not a simulator). And frankly they're right, game play is always more important than whether or not a specific tank is historically accurate. It matters not one bit that historically it was mounted on a panther chassis, that's an interesting historical tidbit but has no bearing on how the tank plays, or should play, in the game.

View PostDZGunner, on Mar 29 2019 - 01:13, said:

You're right, I do want to play a tank game that's fun, and that's why I want to play the grille 15 and be able to fight tanks of my same tier. I want my t10 that I never asked for to have stats that are better than t8 tanks.

In that case you should be asking for advice on how to play the Grille 15 better or show some data that provides evidence that it under performs in the game compared to its peers which would be a valid game play issue, not throwing out specious arguments about how it's mounted on a Panther chassis.

View PostDZGunner, on Mar 29 2019 - 01:13, said:

Also please point out where I've selectively used realism, implying there were related topics that I neglected it in order to support my grievance.

I already did. You're trying to use the historical notes from the wiki as an argument for why the Grille should be changed in-game, that's an inherently doomed argument.

View PostDZGunner, on Mar 29 2019 - 01:13, said:

So far I've pointed out that by the games own rules and stats, this tank is lacking

You posted a couple of pictures of the specs, and then cherry picked the specs that seem like they would impact the Grille's game performance, but you haven't provided any supporting information that indicates the Grille actually under performs in the game. In the past I would have suggested vbaddict to compare the Grille's overall performance to other tanks, but unfortunately that site isn't available anymore. If you really want to make the case that the Grille is under equipped you should find a source that shows how it performs compared to other tanks.



DZGunner #18 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 19:36

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Wiki? Right click on the Grille 15 in the garage and click vehicle details. As I said, the information I've presented is all from the game itself. Why are you making things up to try and discredit what I'm saying?

 

I'm here to seriously discuss the problems and inconsistencies with the game. I've provided information from the game itself and you still say "If you really want to make the case that the Grille is under equipped you should find a source that shows how it performs compared to other tanks". I have literally done that and you are glazing over the facts I've given, so I think you're just here to argue for the sake of it. Also your words mean a lot less when you don't even own or play the tank, you know we can all see your stats and tanks played right? You should play the Grille 15 sinse you like it the way it is, and when you're struggling, come and ask me for advise on how to play it, considering I have 1100 games in it. 

You keeping asking me to go retrieve you information; now you are asking me to source that this tank has any issues to begin with. The thing is, I've been giving information, and you are just ignoring it. So why should I waste my time to go fetch more information for you when you will just ignore it again? Instead of me wasting my time to play fetch for you, I want you to go to the general forum and search "Grille", and then open all the links that have mentions of it and just read what the people who have actually played the tank have to say about it. Sinse apparently none of the inconsistent stats and hard evidence doesn't matter to you, maybe the fact that people everywhere aren't having fun with the tank due to it lacking in performance will. Sinse in game stats don't matter to you, maybe peoples' opinions will, and if that doesn't, then my advise would be that you go play the tank. Otherwise I don't see how you possibly have credibility on the subject.



AppleTank8 #19 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 20:39

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1) HE shells: Partially caliber, partially if they decide to give the tank a gimmick. For some tanks, that extra powerful HE shells.

 

2) Traverse: All TDs have craptraverse, this is not news. You want better turning, don't play TDs. Whether or not the tank IRL could turn well is irrelevant. The only thing historically modeled is the tank model, and even that's a crapshoot sometimes.



grandthefttankV #20 Posted Mar 29 2019 - 20:40

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Please address your questions to:

Soviet bias committee, wargaming ltd.





Also tagged with grille, 15, grille15, stats, traverse, he, high explosive, highexplosive, panther, rhm

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