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Gold Ammo Nerf, What About Premium Tanks?

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JakeTheMystic #1 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 20:27

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I'm kind of surprised I didn't think about it earlier;

 

Once they go through with the gold ammo nerf, what happens to all of the reward/premium tanks? They could nerf the ammo as well on those tanks, but a lot of people would demand money back for those tanks and consider them a bait and switch, as they changed the tanks after they have been bought. (Lawsuits have happened for that before.)

 

So if they can't nerf the premium ammo on premium/reward tanks, but nerf the ammo on non-premiums, that would just make it pay-to-win even more than it currently is, which is a whole lot of steps in the wrong direction. Things like the Obj 260, Cheftain, 907, Vk.k, ect would run rampant at tier 10 with un-nerfed premium while tanks like the Maus, 705A, IS-7, 140, ect would have to play without premium (or at least mostly limited unless they want to lose potential damage for that game). 

 

Knowing this, I'd say gold ammo nerf is taking the game in the wrong direction. Not only would it passive-buff every heavy in the game, it also makes the game extremely pay-to-win for tanks 6-8 and would completely ruin competitive play (including clan wars) at tier 10. That's not the type of game I want to participate in. 

 

 



Avalon304 #2 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 20:28

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Since its a mechanic change and not a per tank change... premiums arent safe and no refunds are required.

heavymetal1967 #3 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 20:29

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Who says they can't or aren't nerfing the premium tank ammo?

 

Not arguing, wondering if you've seen this mentioned somewhere.



Zigur #4 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 20:36

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I highly doubt this will actually happen. I heard it didnt go over well on the Russian test server.

Playz4Free #5 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 20:39

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View PostJakeTheMystic, on Apr 03 2019 - 20:27, said:

Knowing this, I'd say gold ammo nerf is taking the game in the wrong direction. Not only would it passive-buff every heavy in the game, it also makes the game extremely pay-to-win for tanks 6-8 and would completely ruin competitive play (including clan wars) at tier 10. That's not the type of game I want to participate in. 

 

 

1) Like it was already said, they will nerf the premiums because it is a gameplay mechanic change. They have the right to if anyone bothers to read the EULA they would know that it is completely possible to change premium tanks at any point, but they choose not to whenever possible.

2) How does a premium nerf make the game pay-to-win? I don't get it. Also how does it ruin competitive game play?



DomoSapien #6 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 20:50

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I might be wrong on this but fairly certain we have been taking the stance of "Premium Ammo is a global mechanic, and it's being changed globally, for all tanks, premium and non-premium." 

Theoretically every vehicle will be affected by the ammo rework, without exception. So the vehicles aren't being changed, the entire game is. Therefore your performance in premium vehicles, relative to all the other vehicles in the game, will theoretically be unchanged.

Furthermore we specifically gave ourselves a long runway for introducing these changes (after removing the ability to buy them with gold) so that all the premium ammo purchased with Gold would get used up before changing it - because we are changing the ammunition and not the vehicles themselves.



The_Illusive_Man #7 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 20:55

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View PostDomoSapien, on Apr 03 2019 - 16:50, said:

I might be wrong on this but fairly certain we have been taking the stance of "Premium Ammo is a global mechanic, and it's being changed globally, for all tanks, premium and non-premium." 

Theoretically every vehicle will be affected by the ammo rework, without exception. So the vehicles aren't being changed, the entire game is. Therefore your performance in premium vehicles, relative to all the other vehicles in the game, will theoretically be unchanged.

Furthermore we specifically gave ourselves a long runway for introducing these changes (after removing the ability to buy them with gold) so that all the premium ammo purchased with Gold would get used up before changing it - because we are changing the ammunition and not the vehicles themselves.

 

I think you should send this along:

 

Having a "log runway" for changing things is more damaging than appeasing a small amount of players. 

 

I think that alot of players just left because things arnt getting fixed fast enough. If this was made faster, less people will leave.



JakeTheMystic #8 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 20:57

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I know on the super-test, they were only testing it with specific tanks, so I assumed it only applied to non-premiums. 

 

My point still stands about them nerfing premium ammo across the board though, a lot of premium tank and reward tank holders wouldn't be happy knowing their tanks are getting nerfed (except the heavies that are getting a passive buff). Although it is a game mechanic and not a specific characteristic of the tank, it still seems.. strange

 

View PostPlayz4Free, on Apr 03 2019 - 10:39, said:

2) How does a premium nerf make the game pay-to-win? I don't get it. Also how does it ruin competitive game play?

 

I was referring to the idea that if premiums didn't get the gold ammo nerf, they would be extremely OP in the sense they can fire premium rounds with no penalty in comparison to their non-premium counterparts. I was under the impression that WG wouldn't change premium tanks because people would start demanding refunds (even though it's in the EULA, people have sued for bait-and-switch already with WG in the past and won). It would ruin comp play as well if they didn't nerf reward tanks, since everyone in a 260/907 would have a HUGE advantage over people who had to play IS-7/140. If you had a premium or reward tank, you would have a huge advantage. 

 

But I guess if they if it's just a mechanic change and it's across the board, WG is just going to get a lot of angry customers. 



heavymetal1967 #9 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 21:10

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View PostDomoSapien, on Apr 03 2019 - 14:50, said:

I might be wrong on this but fairly certain we have been taking the stance of "Premium Ammo is a global mechanic, and it's being changed globally, for all tanks, premium and non-premium." 

Theoretically every vehicle will be affected by the ammo rework, without exception. So the vehicles aren't being changed, the entire game is. Therefore your performance in premium vehicles, relative to all the other vehicles in the game, will theoretically be unchanged.

Furthermore we specifically gave ourselves a long runway for introducing these changes (after removing the ability to buy them with gold) so that all the premium ammo purchased with Gold would get used up before changing it - because we are changing the ammunition and not the vehicles themselves.

 

Thanks Domo for some clarification.  And that's the where I'm "up to speed" at as well. I know the latter is dead on because they've stated that in some Q&A sessions along with they had to get rid of all the gold aka real money bought ammo because of the way the laws in some jurisdictions are on such matters.

 

If they're taking that into account there are lawyers involved.  So, at least one would think, the same lawyers must be saying it's ok to nerf ammo on all tanks for the reasons you mention.

 

And Jake has a point imo.  If they don't nerf the premium tank ammo (and I have a pile of them) it creates a staunch PTW argument.  Even if WG were to be held to that yardstick by an outside entity. If that was the case I think they'd look at alternatives.

 

Can't help but wonder though why when they globally balanced arty that the Lef and Sexton kept their solid ball ammo?



Bad_Oedipus #10 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 21:16

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View PostJakeTheMystic, on Apr 03 2019 - 14:57, said:

 people have sued for bait-and-switch already with WG in the past and won).

 

Seriously, suing for $50 digital tank?  What's in it for a lawyer?  I can see class action suit may attract some starving patent troll, not an individual that suffers from emotional distress due to his "tank" getting nerfed.

 

Best you can win is court ordering WG to provide digital support animal for those tanks. 



Playz4Free #11 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 21:20

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View PostJakeTheMystic, on Apr 03 2019 - 20:57, said:

I know on the super-test, they were only testing it with specific tanks, so I assumed it only applied to non-premiums. 

 

My point still stands about them nerfing premium ammo across the board though, a lot of premium tank and reward tank holders wouldn't be happy knowing their tanks are getting nerfed (except the heavies that are getting a passive buff). Although it is a game mechanic and not a specific characteristic of the tank, it still seems.. strange

 

 

I was referring to the idea that if premiums didn't get the gold ammo nerf, they would be extremely OP in the sense they can fire premium rounds with no penalty in comparison to their non-premium counterparts. I was under the impression that WG wouldn't change premium tanks because people would start demanding refunds (even though it's in the EULA, people have sued for bait-and-switch already with WG in the past and won). It would ruin comp play as well if they didn't nerf reward tanks, since everyone in a 260/907 would have a HUGE advantage over people who had to play IS-7/140. If you had a premium or reward tank, you would have a huge advantage. 

 

But I guess if they if it's just a mechanic change and it's across the board, WG is just going to get a lot of angry customers. 

 

The last paragraph wasn't 100% clear so I was under the impression that you meant a premium round nerf as a whole across the board would make the game more pay-to-win and destroy competitive game play. Not just specifically in the case if premiums weren't changed, which I agree would kill the game.

 

As far as lawsuits go, I have heard many threats, but never actually seen a case where they were successfully sued and what the premise/grievance of the lawsuit was.



DomoSapien #12 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 21:36

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View Postheavymetal1967, on Apr 03 2019 - 14:10, said:

 

Thanks Domo for some clarification.  And that's the where I'm "up to speed" at as well. I know the latter is dead on because they've stated that in some Q&A sessions along with they had to get rid of all the gold aka real money bought ammo because of the way the laws in some jurisdictions are on such matters.

 

If they're taking that into account there are lawyers involved.  So, at least one would think, the same lawyers must be saying it's ok to nerf ammo on all tanks for the reasons you mention.

 

And Jake has a point imo.  If they don't nerf the premium tank ammo (and I have a pile of them) it creates a staunch PTW argument.  Even if WG were to be held to that yardstick by an outside entity. If that was the case I think they'd look at alternatives.

 

Can't help but wonder though why when they globally balanced arty that the Lef and Sexton kept their solid ball ammo?


I'd say probably the distinction is that the tanks were being balanced and not the ammo. Like, if they had large-enough-caliber guns to have a stun mechanic, things would be more complicated. Lucky for us in that case we didn't need to worry about it because stun doesn't happen if the caliber of the shell is smaller than 120mm.

Those two should be affected by the ammo rework though.


EDIT: Also, probably should have stressed this more earlier and included a disclaimer to the effect of "I am in no way, shape or form legal counsel for wargaming nor do I have the legal-know-how to issue any kind of official statement on behalf of my employer"
 



Zigur #13 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 21:47

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Oh boy, if this actually happens not looking forward to 15 MAUS and T110E3s in clan wars. :child:

ArmorStorm #14 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 21:49

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View PostAvalon304, on Apr 03 2019 - 13:28, said:

Since its a mechanic change and not a per tank change... premiums arent safe and no refunds are required.

 

Well, the premium TD’s weren’t included in the TD changes, nor were the Lefh and Sexton affected by the arty rework so...we will have to see. 

LGBTBBQ #15 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 21:54

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I, personally, would like all of the experience I used to grind the Type 5 refunded to me. The entire reason I made the miserable grind through the line was for the 1400 damage premium rounds that the 15cm offered. They are completely reworking the tank's premium ammo and destroying the alpha damage. If the tank had the proposed ammo I would have never made the grind for it. Refund my XP, please.

Edited by Quotheraven, Apr 03 2019 - 21:54.


Flarvin #16 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 22:04

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View PostArmorStorm, on Apr 03 2019 - 15:49, said:

 

Well, the premium TD’s weren’t included in the TD changes, nor were the Lefh and Sexton affected by the arty rework so...we will have to see. 

 

Cool, so all perm tanks should keep current prem ammo mechanics. Precedences as been set. 



InappropriateHandHolding #17 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 22:49

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I highly doubt they will nerf prem rounds they would have to rework so many tanks to make it even a option without killing the game.

Pipinghot #18 Posted Apr 03 2019 - 23:00

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View PostJakeTheMystic, on Apr 03 2019 - 14:27, said:

I'm kind of surprised I didn't think about it earlier;

 

Once they go through with the gold ammo nerf, what happens to all of the reward/premium tanks? They could nerf the ammo as well on those tanks, but a lot of people would demand money back for those tanks and consider them a bait and switch, as they changed the tanks after they have been bought. (Lawsuits have happened for that before.)

It would only qualify as a bait & switch if it affects premium tanks disproportionately. The change to prem ammo is a global change to the entire game, and as such it shouldn't make prem tanks any more or any less effective than they are now. As long as prem tanks maintain their effectiveness relative to standard tanks no would would successfully be able to ask for their money back (unless WG agrees as a PR move, rather than for legal reasons).

 

Every MMO has changes and each change has to be evaluated based on how well/poorly it's implemented. If they implement the change prem ammo properly there would be no grounds for anyone to complain, much less file a successful law suit.



Casual_Boops #19 Posted Apr 04 2019 - 02:11

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View PostDomoSapien, on Apr 03 2019 - 14:36, said:


I'd say probably the distinction is that the tanks were being balanced and not the ammo. Like, if they had large-enough-caliber guns to have a stun mechanic, things would be more complicated. Lucky for us in that case we didn't need to worry about it because stun doesn't happen if the caliber of the shell is smaller than 120mm.

Those two should be affected by the ammo rework though.


EDIT: Also, probably should have stressed this more earlier and included a disclaimer to the effect of "I am in no way, shape or form legal counsel for wargaming nor do I have the legal-know-how to issue any kind of official statement on behalf of my employer"
 

 

The big issue with your logic though, is what about premium tanks like the Chrysler, which, if you remove the premium ammo become SIGNIFICANTLY worse? Like, I can tell you that I bought certain tanks because of their total combat characteristics. This includes the premium ammo damage and penetration. 

MDizN #20 Posted Apr 04 2019 - 02:35

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View Postpickpocket293, on Apr 03 2019 - 19:11, said:

 

The big issue with your logic though, is what about premium tanks like the Chrysler, which, if you remove the premium ammo become SIGNIFICANTLY worse? Like, I can tell you that I bought certain tanks because of their total combat characteristics. This includes the premium ammo damage and penetration. 

 

So paying Money for a tank just because of its' ability to out damage  in game grind-able tanks is in no way a pay to win argument..





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