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Don't nerf the game's best meme (4005 tank curve stats)


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JunkaTheAdmirable #1 Posted Apr 13 2019 - 11:18

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The 4005 is great meme, but it's not OP.

 

According to noobmeter, in the last month it's the most popular tier X tank destroyer by far. With 106,000 battles, it's twice as popular as the next most used TD, the grille 15. However, the player stats indicate it is balanced: the average noobmeter player winrate of those using the tank is 54%, but the tank itself averages 53%, which is a percent lower.

 

 

The 4005 performance curve according to wot-news is similarly unimpressive. The 4005 doesn't consistently overperform at any player winrate level, and actually underperforms for players under 50% winrate. This objectively indicates the tank isn't OP, and this should be obvious considering the existing weaknesses of the tank include paper armor, massive size, no camo, mediocre mobility, long reload, and relatively poor gun handling. It's a one trick pony that relies on cleverness and hard cover to actually land those high damage shots without dying.

 

Why would wargaming alienate a large section of the player base by nerfing a tank that is both popular and balanced? Are they paying too much heed to crybabies who want to farm with impunity from hulldown positions? Or players who make bad maneuvering decisions and get caught in the open?


Edited by JunkaTheAdmirable, Apr 13 2019 - 11:25.


MagillaGuerilla #2 Posted Apr 13 2019 - 11:36

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It's not Russian. Nerf it comrade.

DrWho_ #3 Posted Apr 13 2019 - 11:36

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I take my Shed out now and then because on those occasions where you get the "right" game for it it's absolutely hilarious, especially when you get a pen shot on some OP Russian tank. But for an average player like me it's a very difficult tank to play well so unlike some tanks we we could mention it's not a tank that most people can jump into and make all the red tanks miserable. Even less so in games that are all tier 10

WileyCat #4 Posted Apr 13 2019 - 11:49

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nice

oldewolfe #5 Posted Apr 13 2019 - 11:54

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I have yet to have the Right Game, but I did have a Good One....      And those I'll take anyday, being as they're Rare as Hens Teeth...      Otherwise this is the MOST Expensive Tier 10 in my Garage to Operate, regardless of Ammo Choice.....

 

http://wotreplays.eu...fv4005_stage_ii

 

https://youtu.be/xAtFNLNKktU

 

Considering my Luck in this thing, Yes, I call this a Good Game....     lol



RoyalGreenPC #6 Posted Apr 13 2019 - 12:19

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Probably so everyone buys the FV 183 from bond shop since that will be just better after FV4005's nerf.

JakeTheMystic #7 Posted Apr 13 2019 - 13:05

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I personally don't like how many derp tanks are running around at tier 10. It ruins the fun of the game when your armor means nothing and you are consistently getting hit for 600+ damage where you can't do anything about it. 

 

Sure you can just sit behind cover and never poke, but what's the point in playing then? 

 

I'm honestly glad the 4005 and Type 5 are getting nerfed, that just puts the 183 back into its former glory as the one true death cannon. That also leaves an opening for a new super-heavy meta for pubs and CWs, all aboard the Maus train, choo choo! 



LT_Moon #8 Posted Apr 13 2019 - 15:20

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I was about to purchase this TD when WoT announced this nerf. Gotta just hold until the final verdict. Or should I purchase and play it until it got nerfed?

spud_tuber #9 Posted Apr 13 2019 - 15:30

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I don't like the big derp guns at tier 10, but I don't like WG's "fix" either.  They're basically doing population control on something unhealthy for the game (high alpha HE) rather than fix it, and they're not even really being subtle about it.

Not sure what I'm going to do with the FV4005 crew I have.  Picked up the tank almost exclusively for TD missions, in particular the destroy modules/injure crew mission,  but I've that one done now I think, so it may become my first T10 to be sold now that its going to return to its pre buff position as worst T10 TD.

Backhair #10 Posted Apr 13 2019 - 15:54

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Anyone encouraging this tank remain the same is living with their head in the sand and is puposefully ignoring what happens even when these aren't shooting.  Whole teams avoid pushing with the assumption that nobody wants to be the sucker 1 shot when they are the first lit for trying to probe a flank.  Any larger map like fisherman's bay, highway, murovanka, malinovka, karelia, prokhorovka, etc.  that has one of these in the battle becomes an instant stalemate as tanks stop playing their role and just wait.  Any [edited]people do in defense of the 4005 basically boils down to either people complaining that their 4005 is gonna get lit whenever they load in on ensk or ruinberg or that "but the accuracy is bad!" who cares.  That doesn't stop people turtling because of the chance of being hit.

 

Literally this tank (but many other high alpha, high tier derp tanks) contribute more to the unplayability of this game than any other wot factor when you consider something more than a stupid damage winrate graph and actually account for how the mere presence of a 4005 impacts match decision making and playability by the other team.

 

Edit: typed damage, meant winrate


Edited by Backhair, Apr 13 2019 - 16:10.


oldewolfe #11 Posted Apr 13 2019 - 15:55

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I was gonna buy tge Deathstar anyway....     I couldn't get to the Grind in time to earn it, and I'd have never made it thru itif I started when they Announced the Drop....      So, I await the Bonds Purchase....      

 

I haven't decided yet whether to Grind the Badger or not as is...     The Grind always looked Horrific to me with the Slow Speed and all that, but I have the AT15A now and it's not overly Bad, but it is certainly Slow....



MountainLion1 #12 Posted Apr 13 2019 - 17:10

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If they go through with the 4005 nerfs it will be collecting dust in the garage like the E5. A shame how they nerf tanks like these and leave the truly OP tanks (Russian) untouched. 

Edited by MountainLion1, Apr 13 2019 - 17:11.


xXTheGameAceXx #13 Posted Apr 13 2019 - 17:12

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View PostJakeTheMystic, on Apr 13 2019 - 07:05, said:

I personally don't like how many derp tanks are running around at tier 10. It ruins the fun of the game when your armor means nothing and you are consistently getting hit for 600+ damage where you can't do anything about it.

 

600+ damage from a Type 5? Are you running into their shots while driving something with cardboard armor? I'm lucky to average ~300 - 400 range in damage per shot with mine if I aim just right and get some good RNG. If you feel that way though, would you fare to venture that HEAT rounds at Tier 10 that make your armor worthless and can pump out shots even faster than the Type 5 or Barn are a bigger issue?

View PostMountainLion1, on Apr 13 2019 - 11:10, said:

If they go through with the 4005 nerfs it will be collecting dust in the garage like the E5. A shame how they nerf tanks like these and leave the truly OP tanks (Russian) untouched. 

 

*Soviet anthem intensifies*

NoBoater #14 Posted Apr 13 2019 - 17:18

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Don't chase meta tanks that aren't Russian and you can't go wrong.

Goat_Rodeo #15 Posted Apr 13 2019 - 17:39

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Thing that really gets under my skin is that everyone is complaining about the alpha hit. Not the dammed mobility. I’d be happy to take an alpha nerf if it left the mobility untouched. The absolute last thing I want, is a slow as [edited]TD that can’t reposition when needed. As we all know when a tier 10 battle starts to go wrong, it goes fast. So now I’ll own some slow, huge can be seen from space tier 10 TD that is gonna be a red line “sniper”...with screen filling dispersion. **dust settling intensifies**

 

 


Edited by Goat_Rodeo, Apr 13 2019 - 17:40.


eraser1 #16 Posted Apr 13 2019 - 20:12

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A tank doesn't have to be OP to be bad for the game. As some people already mentioned, it can be highly dissuasive to a push, or really any sort of aggressive play.

 

But really, the biggest issue just comes down to HE mechanics. It requires minimal skill, and tends to punish skilled play more often than not. Sidescraping? Playing hull down? Doesn't matter. The only defense against HE Spam is to not be lit at all.

If you like that style of play, I highly encourage you to try War Thunder. It pulls it off reasonably well, but as you can tell, that playstyle isn't for everybody.

 

View PostxXTheGameAceXx, on Apr 13 2019 - 10:12, said:

1) 600+ damage from a Type 5? Are you running into their shots while driving something with cardboard armor? I'm lucky to average ~300 - 400 range in damage per shot with mine if I aim just right and get some good RNG.

 

2) If you feel that way though, would you fare to venture that HEAT rounds at Tier 10 that make your armor worthless and can pump out shots even faster than the Type 5 or Barn are a bigger issue?

1) It's not difficult to hit other types for 500-600 damage reliably if you know what you're doing. Let alone any other relatively "soft" tanks (pretty much every other tank than the Maus).

 

2) The difference is, it actually matters where your HEAT (or AP) round lands. If it doesn't hit in the correct spot, it won't do any damage. HE rounds on the other hand, are practically guaranteed to do damage as long as you hit the target.

More importantly, you cannot angle your armor against HE/HESH. You can against every other round.

Finally, greater ROF usually just makes a tank more difficult to play. It's easy to farm damage in a type using peek-a-boom tactics. Especially on city maps. Not as easy to trade with higher ROF (lower alpha).



spud_tuber #17 Posted Apr 13 2019 - 22:51

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View Posteraser1, on Apr 13 2019 - 13:12, said:

A tank doesn't have to be OP to be bad for the game. As some people already mentioned, it can be highly dissuasive to a push, or really any sort of aggressive play.

 

But really, the biggest issue just comes down to HE mechanics. It requires minimal skill, and tends to punish skilled play more often than not. Sidescraping? Playing hull down? Doesn't matter. The only defense against HE Spam is to not be lit at all.

If you like that style of play, I highly encourage you to try War Thunder. It pulls it off reasonably well, but as you can tell, that playstyle isn't for everybody.

 

1) It's not difficult to hit other types for 500-600 damage reliably if you know what you're doing. Let alone any other relatively "soft" tanks (pretty much every other tank than the Maus).

 

2) The difference is, it actually matters where your HEAT (or AP) round lands. If it doesn't hit in the correct spot, it won't do any damage. HE rounds on the other hand, are practically guaranteed to do damage as long as you hit the target.

More importantly, you cannot angle your armor against HE/HESH. You can against every other round.

Finally, greater ROF usually just makes a tank more difficult to play. It's easy to farm damage in a type using peek-a-boom tactics. Especially on city maps. Not as easy to trade with higher ROF (lower alpha).

Every time someone says some variant of "who cares whether it is OP, that HESH round though", I wonder why they're not criticizing the planned nerfs because they don't touch the HESH round.  

 

Literally all WG is doing is attempting population control of 4005s via over nerfing.   That's not the proper way to go about it.  Do something about the HESH, and buff the tank's other stats to compensate. 



NeatoMan #18 Posted Apr 14 2019 - 00:03

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View Posteraser1, on Apr 13 2019 - 14:12, said:

A tank doesn't have to be OP to be bad for the game. As some people already mentioned, it can be highly dissuasive to a push, or really any sort of aggressive play.

This.  The wtfE100 had the same characteristics.   It didn't win much despite putting up some huge dpg numbers.  With huge dpg numbers, but no corresponding high win rates it always made me wonder if they were using MM weight nerfs to control its server wide win rates

 

View Postspud_tuber, on Apr 13 2019 - 16:51, said:

Every time someone says some variant of "who cares whether it is OP, that HESH round though", I wonder why they're not criticizing the planned nerfs because they don't touch the HESH round.  

 

Literally all WG is doing is attempting population control of 4005s via over nerfing.   That's not the proper way to go about it.  Do something about the HESH, and buff the tank's other stats to compensate. 

They did the exact same thing with the VK2801.  When asked if it was OP Serb said "with HEAT it is".  So instead of nerfing HEAT, they nerfed the hell out of the VK2801.  Eventually, they ended up nerfing HEAT rounds, thereby further nerfing the VK2801 into oblivion.



xXTheGameAceXx #19 Posted Apr 14 2019 - 00:11

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View Posteraser1, on Apr 13 2019 - 14:12, said:

1) It's not difficult to hit other types for 500-600 damage reliably if you know what you're doing. Let alone any other relatively "soft" tanks (pretty much every other tank than the Maus).

 

2) The difference is, it actually matters where your HEAT (or AP) round lands. If it doesn't hit in the correct spot, it won't do any damage. HE rounds on the other hand, are practically guaranteed to do damage as long as you hit the target.

More importantly, you cannot angle your armor against HE/HESH. You can against every other round.

Finally, greater ROF usually just makes a tank more difficult to play. It's easy to farm damage in a type using peek-a-boom tactics. Especially on city maps. Not as easy to trade with higher ROF (lower alpha).

1. If you know what you're doing AND you're spamming pure gold. I'm one of those players who doesn't care much for using gold, especially when it drains my credits like a leaky boat. Good chunk of heavies in Tier X also run spall liner now which also reduces the damage further.

2. AP and APCR matter the most. HEAT you can just about aim anywhere and still pen, as long as it's not a completely flat surface. I consider that far more threatening to be consistently penned at a higher RoF for similar damage, than variable HE. Heck, if you hit the wrong location with HE you can cause minimal damage or it can be completely absorbed.

HESH on the other hand I'd be more inclined to agree. Causes a crap ton of damage and generally pens without an issue. I'd still say the gimmick of the Barn is what makes it worthwhile and unique though. People don't seem to complain about the very similar Jagdpanzer E100, which essentially is a Barn with better armor, better concealment, HEAT over HESH, and a bit of lower alpha in comparison.

 

As for peek-a-boom tactics, only works under the right circumstances. Type 5 and similar tanks rely on support for that tactic; If they're alone or in an area where artillery can readily rain down on them, or even hidden bush snipers, even if it can get some damage in it usually takes some severe punishment for a single shot, and typically opposing tanks can also run out around it and start to quickly put additional shots into it while taking a small tradeoff of damage to do so.



Nutzo #20 Posted Apr 14 2019 - 00:22

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all they needed to do is remove the hesh and give it a 38km/h top speed and it would've been fine, but they'd rather not adress the issue and ruin the tank entirely while making it unfun to play or play against

Edited by Nutzo, Apr 14 2019 - 00:23.





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