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Common Test/Update 1.4.2.1 Suggestions: Emil 1, Emil 2 & Kranvagn

common test 1.4.2.1 emil emil1 emil 1 emil2 emil 2 kranvagn feedback suggestion

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Blue___Phoenix #1 Posted Apr 20 2019 - 11:01

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Since you are working on Emil 1, Emil 2 and Kranvagn. I would like to give an objective feedback-suggestions:

 

After playing Swedish heavies for about two years, I know what's good, bad and REALLY bad about them.

It is good to have balanced tanks that are not overpowered. These suggestions are objective; come from hard data and years of experience from playing these tanks. I made an extensive data comparison to be able to prepare this feedback.

 

With the spirit to remain objective, I remove my personal opinion and am limiting the feedback solely on data an observation from the experience gained from playing (and still playing them) Swedish heavies.

 

==Armor==

The turret of Swedish heavies is THE factor that makes these heavies "different". With their distinctive design, the turret is the THIS in "this is what sets them apart" from ALL other tanks, and redundantly, autoloaders. Yet, the armor values are no longer viable for the current meta.

 

For example, Emil 1/Emil 1951:

  • With an armor value of just 180, the turret can be easily penned by many tier 6's, 7's & 8's tanks (like the ARL 44, M6, Panther, T29, Lowe) with AP. Not even APCR/HEAT.
  • Emil 1/1951 has to face tier X tanks. With the current armor values, of 180, its turret can be easily overmatched by almost all tier X with just AP
  • As a heavy, the turret has to be able to perform on corridor maps as well. Ridges/Hills are highly situational and depend heavily on RNG to get a good map or avoid corridor maps (even with the map-blocking option) 
  • To make matters worse, unlike Emil 2 and Kranvagn, the current 3D model for Emil 1/Emil 1951's turret bends on the sides at about a 30-degree angle; this makes it even easier to pen
  • A good example are all British mediums & heavies, tiers 8 and above. Their turret values start at 254 armor; Swedish heavies' turrets are lackluster 
  • Another good example are the Russian heavies, Most of their turrets exceed British's 254 armor by over 300 armor values

-Worry about lower tiers and good balancing?

  • British medium & heavy tanks (tiers 8 to 10) at 254-turret-armor are not breaking the game
  • MANY Russian medium & heavy tanks (tiers 8 to 10) have even higher values than 254 on their turrents AND are not breaking the game
  • Everything else (besides the turret) for Emil 1/Emil 2/Kranvagn has no armor, making it easy for lower tiers
  • Emil 1/1951 meets tier X
  • Even the Primo Victoria MEDIUM (not even a heavy) has better turret armor than ALL the Swedish heavies. Better turret armor than Emil 1/Emil 1951; Better turret armor than Emil 2; Better turret armor than Kranvagn (and the Primo is NOT a tier X); Tier X tanks should, in theory, have better armor than their predecessors and tier 8's (Primo Victoria); The Primo Victoria is NOT breaking the game

This is just Emil 1/Emil 1951 as an example. The feedback on turret armor for Emil 2 & Kranvang is similar/same

These are the reasons Swedish heavies deserve an armor buff on the turrets, and perhaps a 3D modification for Emil1/Emil 1951 as well

 

 

==Penetration==

Regular round penetration for Emil 1/1951, Emil 2 and Kranvagn are NOT enough for the current meta.

 

  • For instance, to penetrate a tier X and super heavies frontally (Mouse/Type 5, Russian heavies, etc.), the BARE minimum pen-value required is 261 penetration (Maus cheeks). Because it is the bare minimum, this means, a 50/50 chance to pen
  • Even with premium amo, Emil 1/1951 cannot penetrate some tier 8 and 9 heavy tanks. Of course, tier X's are hard to impossible to pen
  • Take another factor as an example. Even after the buffs, the reload to change between regular and premium rounds is over 20 seconds. In WoT, over 20 seconds is an eternity. The target dissapears; relocates; gets killed, or you get killed during the ammo change reload. Having to make the decision to sacrifice time, damage and targets, just to change ammunition type because the regular ammo won't deliver is something Swedish heavies have to deal CONSTANTLY. This greatly affects the potential of Swedish heavy tanks to deal damage, be relevant and maybe a decisive factor for some players to abandon this line
  • Another thing to consider is the tank type. Heavy tanks traditionally have some of the highest pen values (regular rounds), sometimes even higher than some tank destroyers. 217 and 252 penetration values are in the medium tank category.

 

 

PS. Keep it fun, keep it balanced.

True to my word, an objective feedback (based on data and experience) for Wargaming to consider.


Edited by Blue___Phoenix, Apr 25 2019 - 02:15.


JakeTheMystic #2 Posted Apr 20 2019 - 11:17

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If you think a tier 8 should be able to pen a tier 10 super heavy just because the skill key, then I think you need to find another line to play. 

 

It's bad enough already that tier 9s can auto-pen most tier 10s with gold, but tier 8s as well? No thanks. 

 

Can't wait for that premium ammo nerf. About time they make heavies great again. 



Blue___Phoenix #3 Posted Apr 20 2019 - 11:28

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View PostJakeTheMystic, on Apr 20 2019 - 11:17, said:

If you think a tier 8 should be able to pen a tier 10 super heavy just because the skill key, then I think you need to find another line to play. 

 

It's bad enough already that tier 9s can auto-pen most tier 10s with gold, but tier 8s as well? No thanks. 

 

Can't wait for that premium ammo nerf. About time they make heavies great again. 

 

You do not seem to know the game very well.

 

  • T34 Penetration: 248 AP/297 APCR (gold)
  • Lowe Penetration: 234 AP/294 APCR (gold
  • KV-4 Penetration: 248 AP/289 APCR (gold)
  • Tiger II Penetration: 225 AP/285 APCR (gold)

 

I can keep going but got things to do. These are just a few of DOZENS of heavy tanks (over 59 tanks to be precise) with APCR/Gold pen at tier 8 higher than 256. Even the AP values are better

Like I mentioned before, my suggestion comes from an objective hard-data analysis and a whole year of experience playing these tanks.

From your comment, "Can't wait for that premium ammo nerf. About time they make heavies great again.", I can see that your opinion is not objective since it comes from your hatred of premium ammo.

 

I worked hard to have an objective suggestion


Edited by Blue___Phoenix, Apr 20 2019 - 11:37.


JakeTheMystic #4 Posted Apr 20 2019 - 12:27

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Again, you list heavies that are not auto-loaders. 

 

You look at other tanks that are actually comparable;

Somua - 263

AMX 50 100 - 263

Emil 1951 - 242

AMX 40t (although medium) - 263

 

Common theme: French tanks are weak all around, sacrifices armor for speed and gun handling. Also, auto-loaders by standard have less pen then their single-shot counterparts.

Swedish heavies: Sacrifice gun characteristics for survive-ability while hull-down and maneuverability.  

 

It's a balance decision as I stated. If a tank could poke out and dump their clip with high chances of penning, that would ruin the whole point of playing a heavy. 

 

Look at the T57 at the 10. It has the highest pen in auto-loaders at tier 10 between the 50B, Kran, and T57. 300mm of pen is plenty enough to go through a Maus' turret even while angled, but 340mm is overkill. There is a clear reason why people bring the T57 to help break camps on Ruinberg, your HP doesn't matter when a couple of clip tanks can melt entire tanks away. 

 

Premium ammo is getting nerfed anyway in two months are so. They arent backing down on the testing either. I thought it was a joke at first, honestly hated the idea. Now that the Type 5 is getting nerfed to trash, the Maus is back in the light as the best tier 10 super-heavy and its only getting better. Throw in the SPG nerfs on top of it all and you've got the glorious Maus of t he good ol' days. 

 

I'm a heavy player at heart and always will be. I know what tanks are capable of and I've played every tier 10 in the game on my deputy account. I've played every premium in the game (except for a couple like the Pz 38H because I'm not that cruel) and I own nearly every premium in the game on this account (minus most lower tiers). 

 

The pen has never been the problem with the line, nor was it the gun. It was the unreliable turret armor in most situations which made it really difficult to survive on most maps. Sure, the gun buffs look great, but that wont change how poorly the turret performs. The T57 will stay top spot for auto-loaders at tier 10 and those buffs won't change that. 

 

 



tanopasman62 #5 Posted Apr 21 2019 - 06:21

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View PostBlue___Phoenix, on Apr 20 2019 - 11:28, said:

 

You do not seem to know the game very well.

 

  • T34 Penetration: 248 AP/297 APCR (gold)
  • Lowe Penetration: 234 AP/294 APCR (gold
  • KV-4 Penetration: 248 AP/289 APCR (gold)
  • Tiger II Penetration: 225 AP/285 APCR (gold)

 

I can keep going but got things to do. These are just a few of DOZENS of heavy tanks (over 59 tanks to be precise) with APCR/Gold pen at tier 8 higher than 256. Even the AP values are better

Like I mentioned before, my suggestion comes from an objective hard-data analysis and a whole year of experience playing these tanks.

From your comment, "Can't wait for that premium ammo nerf. About time they make heavies great again.", I can see that your opinion is not objective since it comes from your hatred of premium ammo.

 

I worked hard to have an objective suggestion

 

I had a KV-4 and the high pen doesn't make up for it tbh

 

Let alone Tiger II which is considered trash atm



Blue___Phoenix #6 Posted Apr 25 2019 - 02:17

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View PostJakeTheMystic, on Apr 20 2019 - 12:27, said:

Again, you list heavies that are not auto-loaders. 

 

You look at other tanks that are actually comparable;

Somua - 263

AMX 50 100 - 263

Emil 1951 - 242

AMX 40t (although medium) - 263

 

Common theme: French tanks are weak all around, sacrifices armor for speed and gun handling. Also, auto-loaders by standard have less pen then their single-shot counterparts.

Swedish heavies: Sacrifice gun characteristics for survive-ability while hull-down and maneuverability.  

 

It's a balance decision as I stated. If a tank could poke out and dump their clip with high chances of penning, that would ruin the whole point of playing a heavy. 

 

Look at the T57 at the 10. It has the highest pen in auto-loaders at tier 10 between the 50B, Kran, and T57. 300mm of pen is plenty enough to go through a Maus' turret even while angled, but 340mm is overkill. There is a clear reason why people bring the T57 to help break camps on Ruinberg, your HP doesn't matter when a couple of clip tanks can melt entire tanks away. 

 

Premium ammo is getting nerfed anyway in two months are so. They arent backing down on the testing either. I thought it was a joke at first, honestly hated the idea. Now that the Type 5 is getting nerfed to trash, the Maus is back in the light as the best tier 10 super-heavy and its only getting better. Throw in the SPG nerfs on top of it all and you've got the glorious Maus of t he good ol' days. 

 

I'm a heavy player at heart and always will be. I know what tanks are capable of and I've played every tier 10 in the game on my deputy account. I've played every premium in the game (except for a couple like the Pz 38H because I'm not that cruel) and I own nearly every premium in the game on this account (minus most lower tiers). 

 

The pen has never been the problem with the line, nor was it the gun. It was the unreliable turret armor in most situations which made it really difficult to survive on most maps. Sure, the gun buffs look great, but that wont change how poorly the turret performs. The T57 will stay top spot for auto-loaders at tier 10 and those buffs won't change that. 

 

 

 

You are still intentionally reducing the subjects, to fit your views. Still not an objective comment.

A true "study" would include ALL tanks. Not intentionally selecting what will fit you

 

And yes; after playing Swedish heavies for over 2-years, the turret armor it is still not good enough even on a hill


Edited by Blue___Phoenix, Apr 25 2019 - 02:24.





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