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Consumables Vs Skills


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gingerted91 #21 Posted Apr 22 2019 - 00:43

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View Postheavymetal1967, on Apr 21 2019 - 19:30, said:

Question on FF directive.  If you run it does it get used up even if you don't have a fire?  The way I understand it they're just like food they get used up, but seeking confirmation.  And TIA.

 

Short answer, yes the FF directive is consumed each match (like food).  Pro tip: you can buy a lot of 100 FF Directives in the Store for 180 bonds (a savings of 20)... instead of auto resupply.  

 

View PostSporkBoy, on Apr 21 2019 - 20:41, said:

Need FF 100% on all crews along with directive (which gets consumed each game) and still not as effective as an extinguisher. It does open a spot for food which helps in multiple ways.


Fires happen if the fuel tank HP reaches 0 (Automatically), or the Engine fails its saving throw after being hit.  By and large most fires are fuel tank fires, so be prepared to repair your fuel tank (especially Russian ones).  In the old days hits to the transmission (especially German tanks) would roll for an Engine fire.  Preventative Maintenance helped mitigate that issue however that part of the mechanic has been changed therefore there are better ways to protect your tank than PM. 

When a fire happens your tank takes "ticks" of damage.  Each tick does less damage than the "tick" before and continues until the tank HP reaches zero, the "tick" damage reaches 0, or the fire is extinguished.  Be very aware that the longer a fire burns, it will begin to damage adjacent modules, (e.g. ammo rack, radio, etc) so you may have bigger problems.  

 

1) An AFE stops the fire after 1 "tick" of damage (and passively reduces fire chance).

2) A manual FE stops the fire depending on how fast you are to activate it and its usually a minimum of 2 "ticks" of damage.
3) 100% firefighting on all crew will reduce the damage per "tick" significantly but still expect to take about 40% of your tanks HP in fire damage

4) Firefighting directive essentially provides 100% firefighting on all crew and acts as 3) and still expect to take about 40% of your tanks HP in fire damage.  (But the good news is you get 3-6 crew skill slots for better picks.

5) 100% firefighting on all crew + Firefighting directive is better but by how much, I don't know but it seems not cost effective.

 

Therefore in general, it should be intuitively obvious that AFE is best practice (manual FEs are for baddies) and if dropping the AFE for food, running the FF directive is best practice.



heavymetal1967 #22 Posted Apr 22 2019 - 01:07

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View Postgingerted91, on Apr 21 2019 - 19:43, said:

 

Short answer, yes the FF directive is consumed each match (like food).  Pro tip: you can buy a lot of 100 FF Directives in the Store for 180 bonds (a savings of 20)... instead of auto resupply.  

 


Fires happen if the fuel tank HP reaches 0 (Automatically), or the Engine fails its saving throw after being hit.  By and large most fires are fuel tank fires, so be prepared to repair your fuel tank (especially Russian ones).  In the old days hits to the transmission (especially German tanks) would roll for an Engine fire.  Preventative Maintenance helped mitigate that issue however that part of the mechanic has been changed therefore there are better ways to protect your tank than PM. 

When a fire happens your tank takes "ticks" of damage.  Each tick does less damage than the "tick" before and continues until the tank HP reaches zero, the "tick" damage reaches 0, or the fire is extinguished.  Be very aware that the longer a fire burns, it will begin to damage adjacent modules, (e.g. ammo rack, radio, etc) so you may have bigger problems.  

 

1) An AFE stops the fire after 1 "tick" of damage (and passively reduces fire chance).

2) A manual FE stops the fire depending on how fast you are to activate it and its usually a minimum of 2 "ticks" of damage.
3) 100% firefighting on all crew will reduce the damage per "tick" significantly but still expect to take about 40% of your tanks HP in fire damage

4) Firefighting directive essentially provides 100% firefighting on all crew and acts as 3) and still expect to take about 40% of your tanks HP in fire damage.  (But the good news is you get 3-6 crew skill slots for better picks.

5) 100% firefighting on all crew + Firefighting directive is better but by how much, I don't know but it seems not cost effective.

 

Therefore in general, it should be intuitively obvious that AFE is best practice (manual FEs are for baddies) and if dropping the AFE for food, running the FF directive is best practice.

 

Thanks and nice additional info, plus one.  And even if you have a lot of tanks AFE are so easily won via rewards and seldom used (in comparison to Repair & FA kits it's easy to run them on any tank that you mount an extinguisher.

 

 



ISNomads #23 Posted Apr 22 2019 - 01:25

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View PostSiege_Engine, on Apr 21 2019 - 07:11, said:

On a light Russian tank, instead of automatic fire extinguisher,

 

Maybe will train one crew member skill in firefighting, and using combat rations consumable??  

 

If I get the crew member fire fighting skill to 100% PLUS the 10% skill boost from combat ration, will that be anywhere close (or at least somewhat satisfactory) for firefighting?  Seems like it gets lit seldom enough to be a waste to run fire fighting, instead of a consumable?  

 

 

 

Why would you use a consumable each and every battle? Costs a lot for not much benefit for most players. Unless you are flush with credits, why pay a perpetual cost when you can get an adequate benefit from a one time cost?

golruul #24 Posted Apr 22 2019 - 03:20

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Here's another point to consider:

Let's say you use a fire extinguisher and get lit up once every 17 games (I got this from my yearly battle report WG sent).  That means for 16 games you effectively are not using a third consumable.  Even a large repair/health kit that you never use gives you passive benefits every single one of those 17/17 games.

 

Do you think it's a good idea to effectively not even equip a consumable for 16 of 17 games?

 

I don't. 

 

I don't run fire extinguishers at all.



I_QQ_4_U #25 Posted Apr 22 2019 - 05:24

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View PostSiege_Engine, on Apr 21 2019 - 20:50, said:

Okay … I started to use a consumable for the very first time, ever.  Here's what I found.  

 

In the past, I've added equipment, crew skills, and so on.  The advantages were gradual.  So I didn't really notice.  

 

Then I added a consumable, today.  For the very first time.  

 

The advantages provided by a consumable are MASSIVE.  Not mathematical or theoretical.  The advantages are immediately and extremely noticeable in every aspect while I play a battle.  I would rather my tank catch on fire every time it was hit, rather than to get rid of consumables.  Okay, I'm exaggerating.  But, not by much.  But seriously, I would rather get rid of gold shells, than get rid of consumables. 

 

 

 

You've played 11k games and never used a consumable??

dunniteowl #26 Posted Apr 22 2019 - 15:45

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View PostSiege_Engine, on Apr 21 2019 - 13:50, said:

Okay … I started to use a consumable for the very first time, ever.  Here's what I found.  

 

In the past, I've added equipment, crew skills, and so on.  The advantages were gradual.  So I didn't really notice.  

 

Then I added a consumable, today.  For the very first time.  

 

The advantages provided by a consumable are MASSIVE.  Not mathematical or theoretical.  The advantages are immediately and extremely noticeable in every aspect while I play a battle.  I would rather my tank catch on fire every time it was hit, rather than to get rid of consumables.  Okay, I'm exaggerating.  But, not by much.  But seriously, I would rather get rid of gold shells, than get rid of consumables. 

 

 

 

This STUNNED me to read.  You haven't use ANY consumables in all that time?

 

 

Oh.  My.  GOD!?!

 

I cannot tell you how many times I have watched a tank just "Burn, baby, burn" after being lit on fire and I'm mentally going, No Fire Extinguisher?!?  Are you MAD!?!?  

 

I don't consider a Fire Extinguisher a 'wasted' slot 16 out of 17 games, even though I very rarely ever catch on fire.  I consider it Insurance.

 

On units below tier V I use small consumables and a manual fire extinguisher on most of them.  On tier V I start to 'weigh' the potential based on the unit type, crew skills and potential (some tanks seem to have a propensity for 'brewing up good' over others) of that tank to ignite.  At that point, it becomes a matter of using Large Consumables and an AFE.  I rarely run with food, but if I do I usually opt to remove the Fire Extinguisher.  Then again, I DO absolutely believe in having FF skills on my crews in those cases.  You have to be able to put out that fire relatively quickly and a Crew with the FF skill running food is as good as a Manual Fire Extinguisher in that regard.

 

I am NOT a 'competitive' player in the sense that I am attempting to play the tanks, units and tiers with the best potential to boost my WR via gaming the system with the most advantageous units.  It's too much effort.  I do like to play as well as I can, though and my ideas on leveraging my 'assets' does not always line up with those with the "best" stats -- and more power to you guys, I am respectful of that ability -- I just know i am not that vested in that aspect of play.  I'll play my heart out, but it's going to be on MY terms.

 

That said, NO CONSUMABLES ALL THIS TIME???!!???  Holy Cow, man, no wonder you haven't been doing that well.  Consumables are a distinct advantage over running none.  I've been using them from day one and from tier one on up.  You lose a track and with no consumables you are at the mercy of the guy who shot your track off in the first place.  Pew, pew, pew, pew, dead.  Bam.  Bam.  Dead.  

 

Not having the ability to insta-repair a track, engine, turret or gun is like saying, "Just kill me now, please."

 

Thank GOD you have finally realized their value!  Now get back in there and FIGHT!

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF!
OvO



Siege_Engine #27 Posted Apr 22 2019 - 23:23

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View Postdunniteowl, on Apr 22 2019 - 15:45, said:

 

This STUNNED me to read.  You haven't use ANY consumables in all that time?

 

 

Oh.  My.  GOD!?!

 

I cannot tell you how many times I have watched a tank just "Burn, baby, burn" after being lit on fire and I'm mentally going, No Fire Extinguisher?!?  Are you MAD!?!?  

 

I don't consider a Fire Extinguisher a 'wasted' slot 16 out of 17 games, even though I very rarely ever catch on fire.  I consider it Insurance.

 

On units below tier V I use small consumables and a manual fire extinguisher on most of them.  On tier V I start to 'weigh' the potential based on the unit type, crew skills and potential (some tanks seem to have a propensity for 'brewing up good' over others) of that tank to ignite.  At that point, it becomes a matter of using Large Consumables and an AFE.  I rarely run with food, but if I do I usually opt to remove the Fire Extinguisher.  Then again, I DO absolutely believe in having FF skills on my crews in those cases.  You have to be able to put out that fire relatively quickly and a Crew with the FF skill running food is as good as a Manual Fire Extinguisher in that regard.

 

I am NOT a 'competitive' player in the sense that I am attempting to play the tanks, units and tiers with the best potential to boost my WR via gaming the system with the most advantageous units.  It's too much effort.  I do like to play as well as I can, though and my ideas on leveraging my 'assets' does not always line up with those with the "best" stats -- and more power to you guys, I am respectful of that ability -- I just know i am not that vested in that aspect of play.  I'll play my heart out, but it's going to be on MY terms.

 

That said, NO CONSUMABLES ALL THIS TIME???!!???  Holy Cow, man, no wonder you haven't been doing that well.  Consumables are a distinct advantage over running none.  I've been using them from day one and from tier one on up.  You lose a track and with no consumables you are at the mercy of the guy who shot your track off in the first place.  Pew, pew, pew, pew, dead.  Bam.  Bam.  Dead.  

 

Not having the ability to insta-repair a track, engine, turret or gun is like saying, "Just kill me now, please."

 

Thank GOD you have finally realized their value!  Now get back in there and FIGHT!

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF!
OvO

 

OH NO NO NO!  SORRY I DIDN'T MEAN TO MISLEAD.   For some reason I got it stuck in my head to refer to food as a "consumable" and forgot that "consumable" also refers to fire extinguisher, repair kit, etc.  

 

I should have said that I've never used any of the food consumables, such as rations, coca cola, etc.  I've only used first aid, repair and fire.  

 

The reason that I did so poorly is because I stink, but also because I rushed up the Russian medium line to tier X as fast as I possibly could.  That might have been okay (I marked the T54 on the way), but I also bought various premium tanks and then started other tank lines.  I bounced all over the place and never really mastered any one type of play style.  

 

Lately, I've found out that I tend to do better and mediums and lights.  I went back to tier VI.  Had no problem marking tier VI mediums.  Moved up to tier VIII and have been playing the LT432 and doing pretty well.  One marked it a couple of days ago.  Moved my best crew and equipment to it.  It's now my favorite tank.  

 

Having said that, I can't ever remember running food or cola or any of those food "consumables".  They have an amazing effect.  I haven't run them in the past due to their cost.  I would now sacrifice anything else other than the food consumable.

 

Sorry again.  Didn't mean to make such a misleading statement.  Had a brain fart.   

 

 



dunniteowl #28 Posted Apr 22 2019 - 23:31

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Whew!!  Holy Cow, I was thinking, That man has some catching up to do.

 

That's different.  Never mind.

 

I run food only from time to time.  As I said before, if I switch to food, my Crew WILL at least be trained on FF for half the crew or better.  Out of a five man crew, my Loader, RO and Gunner are the most likely to get FF and Repairs before anyone else.  Their functions for specific duties are pretty limited, so they get the basic General Crew Skills in second and third place most times.

 

Running food does make a distinctly notable difference and, with Vents and BIA, you probably can easily forego the AFE or MFE on a tank without too much worries.

 

And man, you had me worried there for a minute.  Thanks for clarifying.

 

 

OvO



Trebor1415 #29 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 18:59

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I've stopped carrying extinquishers on a few  tanks in favor of either food or a large repair kit in addition to the small repair kit. So far, in most cases, I've found having the large repair kit is more beneficial. It gives a passive bonus and I don't need to spend the credits by using it unless I've really been hurt bad AND I've already used my small kit AND I think I'll survive if I use the large kit.

I'd carry food more often if not for the cost as I find that even better than a second Large repair kit. But, I keep winning large repair kits, so they are basically free, especially if I use them carefully and don't burn through them as quick as I do small kits.

On the fire side, I've been set on fire two or three times since I stopped carrying kits. The first couple times it didn't matter. I was either already so damaged that a regular hit that didn't set me on fire would have killed me anyway or I was so badly outnumbered that I was going to die from multiple hits from multiple vehicles any second.  The most recent time though I did miss the kit. Start of the game, take one hit when I had full health, starts a fire, and I burn up without firing a shot. Yeah, I missed the extinquisher that time...

TrevorsT112 #30 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 14:37

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View PostSiege_Engine, on Apr 21 2019 - 17:25, said:

You guys have any suggestions regarding deadeye vs designated target, also  on the Russian light?   I'm leaning toward designated target because it would be useful more often?  

 

Deadeye only damages modules WITHOUT adding to direct damage or to damage assist, true ???

 

Not sure what you mean by "direct damage", but my understanding is that Deadeye gives the gunner an  increased chance (3%) to damage/injure modules and crew with each shot. So where you aim will determine what module/crew you will have an increased chance to damage/knock out. Designated target allows the gunner to keep enemy tanks within a certain proximity to your tank visible for an extra 2 seconds. One perk is meant to help make each shot more effective, the other is to help identify enemy tanks longer so that you can get a better shot on them. Both are useful IMO.



TrevorsT112 #31 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 15:05

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View PostSporkBoy, on Apr 21 2019 - 20:41, said:

Need FF 100% on all crews along with directive (which gets consumed each game) and still not as effective as an extinguisher. It does open a spot for food which helps in multiple ways.

This^^^!

 The other perk you might want to add to this would be Preventative Maintenance, which is supposed to decrease the chance of fire. I haven't unlocked this yet for any of my crews, but it sounds worth while especially since its effect is cumulative with the effect of automatic fire extinguishers.

 

My personal take on skills/perks/consumables is that the priority you give them will probably change as you progress your game play. With a new crew, it is hard to beat the benefit/security of a large repair kit, large first aid kit, and automatic fire extinguisher. But much later on when your whole crew has 100% repair/fire fighting, and the gunner has armorer, the driver has PM, and the loader has safe stowage, you might consider dropping the large repair, and FE for high octane and chocolate in a German vehicle to see its effect for example. As others have already mentioned though, the benefits from consumables will obviously increase with better game play. 



TrevorsT112 #32 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 15:08

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View Postgingerted91, on Apr 22 2019 - 00:43, said:

 

Short answer, yes the FF directive is consumed each match (like food).  Pro tip: you can buy a lot of 100 FF Directives in the Store for 180 bonds (a savings of 20)... instead of auto resupply.  

 


Fires happen if the fuel tank HP reaches 0 (Automatically), or the Engine fails its saving throw after being hit.  By and large most fires are fuel tank fires, so be prepared to repair your fuel tank (especially Russian ones).  In the old days hits to the transmission (especially German tanks) would roll for an Engine fire.  Preventative Maintenance helped mitigate that issue however that part of the mechanic has been changed therefore there are better ways to protect your tank than PM. 

When a fire happens your tank takes "ticks" of damage.  Each tick does less damage than the "tick" before and continues until the tank HP reaches zero, the "tick" damage reaches 0, or the fire is extinguished.  Be very aware that the longer a fire burns, it will begin to damage adjacent modules, (e.g. ammo rack, radio, etc) so you may have bigger problems.  

 

1) An AFE stops the fire after 1 "tick" of damage (and passively reduces fire chance).

2) A manual FE stops the fire depending on how fast you are to activate it and its usually a minimum of 2 "ticks" of damage.
3) 100% firefighting on all crew will reduce the damage per "tick" significantly but still expect to take about 40% of your tanks HP in fire damage

4) Firefighting directive essentially provides 100% firefighting on all crew and acts as 3) and still expect to take about 40% of your tanks HP in fire damage.  (But the good news is you get 3-6 crew skill slots for better picks.

5) 100% firefighting on all crew + Firefighting directive is better but by how much, I don't know but it seems not cost effective.

 

Therefore in general, it should be intuitively obvious that AFE is best practice (manual FEs are for baddies) and if dropping the AFE for food, running the FF directive is best practice.

 

Great post thanks. I would be interested to know more about how the mechanic of PM has changed.

gingerted91 #33 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 23:23

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View PostTrevorsT112, on Apr 24 2019 - 15:08, said:

Great post thanks. I would be interested to know more about how the mechanic of PM has changed.

 

Consider that Preventative Maintenance only works to reduce Engine fires.  We know: the majority of fires are fuel tank fires, transmission hits no longer roll for Engine fires, and reusable consumables and directives (Repair Kits, Automatic Fire Extinguishers, and the Firefighting Directive) can often mitigate the module damage better, therefore the value of PM has dropped for many players.

 

Its still a subjective decision but it's a skill with a very narrow activation range and often a different skill/perk can improve tank performance and/or reward a player more XP and credits over the long haul.


Edited by gingerted91, Apr 24 2019 - 23:25.


gingerted91 #34 Posted Apr 25 2019 - 00:18

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View PostSiege_Engine, on Apr 21 2019 - 17:25, said:

Deadeye only damages modules WITHOUT adding to direct damage or to damage assist, true ???

 

False.  They are separate calculations.

If your shot pens it does damage.  If the shot ray and the shot depth intersect with a module then: the module gets a saving throw.  If the module fails it saving throw then it takes module damage (damage is related to Gun Caliber +/- 25% not round alpha).  Note that a damaged module will "regenerate" its HP over time either to an undamaged state or a damaged state (yellow).  If a module is destroyed it is catastrophic in the case of an Ammo Rack (detonation and turret flying) and Fuel Tank (automatic fire) and other modules its less important.  A shot can put a module into one of three states:  "Damaged" and regenerating to full Module HP, "Damaged" and regenerating to "about half" Module HP (not entirely true the values vary a bit) the yellow level, or destroyed (red level).    

e.g. (info from tanks.gg)

Cromwell

Ammo Rack Health - 180 HP
Damaged State (Yellow) - 120 HP

The Ammo Rack is hit by:

 

a 37mm gun - Average Module Damage - 50 
therefore (180 - 50 = 130 HP) and Ammo Rack will regenerate to full health

a 75mm gun - Average Module Damage - 100
therefore (180 - 100 = 80 HP) and Ammo Rack will be Yellow and regenerate to 120 HP - Can be repaired to full with repair kit

a 152mm gun - Average Module Damage - 203
therefore (180 - 203 = -23 HP) and Ammo Rack go boom you watch turret fly and match is over.

Note:  Deadeye does not work with HE!

 
Saving Throw

 

When a module or crew member is hit, they do not necessarily take damage from the hit. Instead, most modules have a specific chance not to take damage. This is also referred to as a saving throw. The base chances of damaging a specific module or crew member when hitting it are as follows:

  • Suspension: 100%
  • Engine: 45%
  • Fuel Tank: 45%
  • Observation Device: 45%
  • Radio: 45%
  • Turret Ring: 45%
  • Gun: 33%
  • Ammunition Rack: 27%

 

All crew members have the same chance to get knocked out when hit, however starting with game version 0.7.4 this chance depends on the damage type:

  • Crew hit by AP/APCR/HEAT shell: 33%
  • Crew hit by (internal) explosion: 10%

Each of these base chances to damage a module or knock out a crew member can be increased by 3% if the Deadeye perk is active for the attacking Gunner at the time of a shot with an AP, APCR or HEAT shell.

 



Griffon327327 #35 Posted Apr 25 2019 - 03:32

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I use automated fire extinguishers on everything tier 4 and up and have never once purchased one they are all free from missions over the years and still have 3600 if not more of them left

 

if I start to go through them at a fast pace without ever once purchasing one I would run out very quickly ?

 

 






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