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2019 Medium tank "buffs"

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Chiaki_Nanamii #1 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 16:21

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Righto ladies, text wall ahead, but this deserves it.


An article has just been put out talking about the changes to the tier 10 mediums coming this year, and the changes to the STB-1 and Leopard 1 are a massive swing and a miss, so lets do a bit of a breakdown of what thy are going to do.


The STB-1 is a tank that has been out of the meta for an extremely long time, why is this?


Well, essentially, despite having very good DPM, the STB-1 has extremely atrocious gun handling, you very rarely hit your shots making the effective DPM far lower than most other tier 10 tanks. On top of this the top speed of the STB-1, being 53km/h, makes it one of the slowest medium tanks so the enemy mediums also get to position before you and take control of it, creating area denial, making you of less use in that game.


When WG made the STB-1 HD, they "buffed" the turret armor, but they also changed the shape of the turret so the effective armor is still the same, meaning it wasn't actually buffed.


All that needed to be done was for WG to buff the STB-1's gun handling.

Current: Moving: 0.15, Hull traverse: 0.15, Turret traverse: 0.13

New: Moving: 0.13, Hull traverse: 0.13, Turret traverse: 0.10.


Then change the turret shape back to what it was pre-HD but keep the current armour values.


Instead WG have decided to completely ruin the tank, sure the introduction of the hydropneumatic suspension is neat, but implementing this at the cost of essentially every other aspect is stupid.


Dropping the alpha from 390 down to 360 is a terrible idea, this makes the playstyle similar to that of a 140/T-62A/907, but it has none of the armor, and, while buffed, the gun handling still does not allow for this to be done effectively. So you are still confined to being second-line support, where the nerfed alpha makes you less effective.


Nerfing the penetration down to 232mm is also completely ridiculous, the AMX 30B is currently a terrible tank because it struggles to penetrate so many tanks, and that is with 248mm. It is now on-par with tier 10 light tanks which as everyone already knows, is utterly [edited].


Buffing the p/w ratio is also a buff that is not needed at all, nor is the hull traverse buffs, in terms of mobility what the STB-1 needed was a top speed buff, as, like I mentioned prior, is currently terrible for a medium that doesn't have armour/staying power. So what do you do? Naturally you take the already craptop speed and nerf it down to 48km/h, yeah nice one, sons crying.


I understand you are trying to make the STB-1 a unique tank, by adding the hydropneumatic suspension and changing the paystyle, but as a result you have just made it worse than the upcoming UDES, and you didn't need to change the playstyle as you are buffing the AMX 30B to not be the same playstyle anyway, so the STB-1 would actually go back to being unique. 


Good job, you made an already craptank, even [edited]ter, you never cease to amaze me.


The only medium tank that is even further out of the meta than the STB-1 is the Leopard 1.


The Leopard 1 was my first tier 10, which I attained around 2 and half years ago, which even back then I discovered that it was really [edited], and outclassed by every other medium, since then it still has not been touched, despite an infinite number of people reaching out to WG about how it really does need a buff. So you can imagine my surprise and joy upon hearing that the Leopard 1 is going to be "buffed". Only to find out that the Leopard 1 is just being made into what it already is; an STRV 103B that is worse.


The Leopard 1 needed to be revamped to become in-line with the meta, and I suggested, many times, that it should get the same treatment as the M48, in that it gets updated to a later model. There were a plethora of model updates done to the Leopard 1, giving many, many choices.


Realistically, due to the rules WG has for tanks, the latest models that could be used are the Leopard 1A3 and the Leopard 1A1A1, as the models after them, such as the Leopard 1A4, implemented composite armor.


The issue of the Leopard 1 is that is fulfills a role that is simply not needed in this game, and on the few situations where you do use that role, the STRV 103B does the job, and does it better, far, far better.


The Leopard 1 needed to get a buff that made the 'strengths' more apparent, but also the massive weaknesses needed to be made a bit less prominent.


Updating the Leopard 1 to a later model, such as the Leopard 1A3 would do all of this.


The later models of the Leopard 1 implemented stabilisers to make the gun more accurate, which is the biggest problem faced by the Leopard 1 currently, so making it a later model with said stablisers would make the moving and traverse dispersions far better, reducing the massive bane that is the gun handling. On top of this, the later models, namely the 1A3-1A5 used a new turret, in the case of the 1A3, the turret was given additional spaced plates, much like that of the Super Conqueror and T26E4. They were mounted on rubber mounts to allow a bit of absorption of impact to reduce the likelihood of the armor cracking. This would essentially make the Leopard 1 have a turret like the AMX 30B has currently, except without the tumor on the roof. Meaning that poorly aimed shots will not penetrate due to the spaced armour/angles, but if you actually aim you will penetrate it, just like the current M48 as well. But as a bonus, the spaced armour will eat HEAT shells, this increases the longevity of the Leopard 1. 


Those two buffs together would make the tank worse in a brawl than something like the M48 as the turret is roughly the same, but the DPM is far lower and the hull is made of wet cardboard as well as can be overmatched in the sides.


Unfortunately WG, like usual, ignored all the sensible suggestions on how to buff the Leopard 1, and instead have opted for their own way of going about it.


WG have given it a swing, but a close miss. The buffs to the overall gun handling are great, no doubt. 

Buffing the alpha damage from 390 to 420 is completely unnecessary, and doesn't really do much for the tank considering the proposed playstyle, you are supposed to rush into position at the start and get early damage on the cross, but now, due to the lower RoF, you will likely actually lose out on more damage than you currently do.


Nerfing the hull traverse, reverse speed, and the health pool are reducing the already extremely longevity of the Leopard, especially considering you are not gaining any advantage in that department.


Buffing the top speed to 70km/h is nice, but also, like the alpha damage buff, is not really needed and doesn't really do anything for the tank, nor fix the actual problems with it.


The only seemingly good thing about it is the buff to the standard rounds, making them 278 pen AP rounds, so you get 10mm more penetration and 2° extra normalisation meaning you get even more effective penetration against angled armour. Especially considering ti doesn't really lose any shell velocity. But at the same time reducing the premium penetration is not great, especially considering that soon you are nerfing the damage of premium rounds, meaning that in the future the Leopard 1 will not only do worse at penetrating the tanks that require premium ammo to penetrate, when you do manage to go though, you also do less, so you are going to bleed an insane amount of credits when in matches that are stacked with superheavies and superheavy TD's. Not to mention that since it is now APCR as premium, you are going to have an extremely hard time penetrating the 268 V4 as the trick to them is to shoot HEAT at the upper plate, which it now can not do.


You got my hopes up with the announcement of the Leopard 1 buffs, but sadly you did not deliver, and the tank will still remain obsolete, stop trying to force players to use a playstyle that simply has no role in the game, especially when the STRV 103B does it better anyway.


The AMX 30B is a tank that was once like the Leopard 1, then you changed it because it was too similar to said Leopard 1, and in turn made it a better STB-1, but also made the tank pretty bad.


This is actually a very good set of changes, the AMX 30B historically had the best 105mm gun of all NATO tanks, but you wouldn't think it given the performance of it in this game. The AMX 30B currently has the highest DPM of tier 10 medium tanks, being ties with the T95E6, and, apart from the fully-aimed accuracy has the best gun handling, tied with the M60.


The issue is that the penetration and shell velocity on both the APCR and HEAT shells are complete garbage, making the tank a nightmare to play.


Funnily enough, the AMX 30B will now go back to being a tank that will be good for random battles, but still not really get use in CW, which is fine in my opinion.


But going back to what I said earlier, due to these buffs, combining the handling of the way the gun used to be with the current DPM/armour profile, will make the tank not like the STB-1 any more, meaning there is no need to change the STB-1 to make it "Unique" again. This is the only one that is actually a buff to a tank that needed it.


The STB-1 overall is being quite heavily nerfed, all in exchange for a niche mechanic that will be worse than the upcoming Swedish mediums anyway. 


The Leopard 1 is just a rework, it isn't a buff, it isn't a nerf, it has just had the playstyle slightly changed, meaning it overall power level stays the same, i.e: [edited].


On to the nerfs.


The Object 430U is a tank that has needed a nerf since the day it was released, you spot some [edited]about how you never really saw many of them in the matchmaker so they didn't have an effect on the balance, which is a complete lie. There was, and still is, a plethora of them in rotation because they are extremely overpowered, and if you don't believe me, just look at the winrate curves, or if you don't believe them due to tinfoil hattery, when you next come across one in a game, have a peek at the player statistics in the Object 430U compared to their other tier 10 mediums, or any tier 10 for that matter, and you can almost guarantee that their stats will be abnormally higher than everything else, why? Because it is well overpowered.


So why did it take this long to be nerfed? Because it was released alongside the Object 268 V4, which took all the attention, allowing the 430U to slip under the radar, despite the constant complaints about how overpowered it is.


Now you may be thinking, but Celestia, why are you not happy about the nerfs? I though that is a good thing.


Well it is, except the thing that made the 430U overpowered is the ridiculous armour profile combined with the gun. Naturally WG have not decided to touch the armour profile of the 430U, which is the biggest problem with it, and have opted for nerfing the gun handling which is great, but the nerf to the DPM is also unnecessary, as is the turret traverse nerf. 


What needed to be done instead was for the gun handling to be nerfed by ~10%, then the upper plate reduced by 10mm of raw armour and the turret needed to either be reduced by 10-15mm raw armour, or for the cupolas to actually be a weakspot, and not some [edited]280mm+ pancakes that you play off as being a 'weakspot' simply because they are slightly thinner than the rest of the turret.


You nerfed it, yes, but not entirely in the right areas, good job.


Finally, the Object 430. 


Funnily enough this is in the same boat as the Object 430U, you nerfed it, which it did indeed need, but once again you nerfed the wrong part of it.


The Object 430 is overpowered due to its armour profile, not the gun. It has better armour than most tier 9 heavy tanks, it has better armour than every medium tank in the game other than the aforementioned 430U, and still has better armour than at least half of the tier 10 heavy tanks.


Alongside this, the Object 430 has an extremely small profile, and has, if my memory is serving me right, the best camo of all tier 9 medium tanks. And this isn't even mentioning how the Object 430 also has side armour that is at an extreme angle meaning you bound a ridiculous amount of shots that would penetrate almost every other tank. 


The gun on the Object 430 is fine, what needed to be done is the side armor to be reworked so it doesn't have the extremely angled parts that keep a solid 30% of the hull side an auto-ricochet, and nerf the raw armour of the upper plate by 5mm, then just nerf the camo rating by a small amount.



All-in-all you have made an attempt, but like so, so many attempts in the past, you have completely missed the mark, and have ended up making most things you touched worse than they already were.


Now I know that If you read this [Which is a big X To Doubt] you will spin off some crap about how they haven't been implemented yet so how could we possibly know if they are good or bad. But remember all the changes you made to CW in both season 10 and now season 11, that we said would be terrible, but you didn't listen and did anyway, then after the season ended you came back and said that we were right?


Well this is the same things, so please for the love of all that is holy, use your brains and actually listen to your playerbase before you make the changes.


I for one am growing tired of the perpetual cycle of terrible decision making on your behalf, and I know for a fact that there is a large percentile of the payerbase that are in agreement with this, you need to pull your head in and do what any decent developer would do.


I would sign this off formally with the usual;


Kind regards, CelestiaLudenberg


But this honestly does not deserve such formality. 


Sort it out.



Credits By: CelestiaLudenberg


Edited by Chiaki_Nanamii, Apr 23 2019 - 16:22.

CeIestiaLudenberg #2 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 16:32


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I gave her permission to copy my thread from SEA, as I couldn't be bothered doing it myself.

Edited by CeIestiaLudenberg, Apr 24 2019 - 02:41.

F0R_M07H3R_RU5514 #3 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 16:34


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My initial impression on the STB-1 chart ... seemed like somewhere between meh and nerf, so I chalked up the remaining charts as propaganda and tuned out.

gpc_4 #4 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 16:37


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I don't like the STB changes on paper, although it's hard to tell how they will be in practice. I did notice that the pen is specified at 500m which is not noted on the other pen changes. Perhaps this is related to the change from APCR to AP. The actual base pen might be more normal, 250-260 range. 

Toefur #5 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 16:59

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UGH, I was looking forward to STB buffs but this is not it. This looks like mostly nerfs with a bit of an agility buff. Really? Pen, velocity, damage, and dispersion (which was one of its main problems) nerfs for a bit of a RoF increase? All it needed was gun handling improvements this almost seems the opposite. Obviosly siege mode will probably improve dispersion and rof, but Velocity, Pen, and Damage will still be worse.  Maybe it will be better in practice than it looks on paper. The aim time and movement dispersion buff are nice, at least there's that.

heavymetal1967 #6 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 16:59


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Some extra tidbits from the article.   Including that some premiums are likely getting changed.  As well as some heavy tanks.






Finally, we're planning to equip the STB-1 with a commonly requested game feature: hydropneumatic suspension just like the one available with the top-tier Swedish medium tanks. We'll thoroughly test this feature, and if we're satisfied with the test results, we'll definitely equip this vehicle with it.


In addition, we're going to rebalance the performance of some other vehicles in the Japanese Tech Tree, especially those sitting at Tier VIII, the STA-1 and the STA-2. The DPM of the STA-1 will increase, making it more competitive.


We also carefully analyzed your feedback regarding the STA-2 and its gameplay and realized this mobile tank could be even more effective, so we will also slightly improve some of its key characteristics. We will unveil the detailed changes of this Premium machine a bit later, after finalizing the settings of other vehicles.


GERMAN Mediums


We also want to properly reconfigure the entire branch and check the effects of our changes on the researchable vehicles. Only then will we proceed to rebalance Premium Tier VIII tanks. So, the characteristics of the Panzer 58 Mutz will certainly be changed, but only after rebalancing the entire branch.


Tier IX mediums and "popular" heavies.


This is only the second iteration of a large-scale rebalancing which we are carrying out this year. In the future, we'll focus on some popular heavy tanks, so share your feedback on the forum which vehicles should be rebalanced first. With the rebalanced Tier X medium tanks coming, we also intend to take a look at some Tier IX vehicles. Their characteristics will undergo the same rebalancing as the top-tier machines of various branches. Stay tuned!




24cups #7 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 17:14


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I think the most interesting thing is that they're looking at "rebalancing " premiums as well.

tod914 #8 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 17:17


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Here's a few for the Dev. Department.




BeMac #9 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 17:19


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This is the buff you told us to expect for the STB? Seriously? Horrible, I'd rather keep it in its current state.

Cerbium #10 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 17:21


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selling the stb

mlinke #11 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 17:21


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When a wot worker spots a sniper guy sgooting at him, he is isued a high power automatic gatling shot gun with bird shot with potential damage of 2200 sniper kills in a minute. I think all those developers should really start playing wot to understand what they are doing

_Bus #12 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 17:25

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I'm honestly really not happy about the STB-1 nerfs....it was already an under performing tank.  They honestly have no idea what to do with the STB-1..... let's give it a little more DPM, but take away alpha, change around it's ammo so it's AP/APCR, but knock down the shell velocity on both, improve dispersion while hull/turret moving, but make overall dispersion worse, improved aim time, a few more HP, top speed nerf, but you can get there faster....and just for good measure, 10m off the view range. Yes we might get the suspension but I still won't be playing this tank anymore.


The Leo 1 changes are....useless honestly, it will still be a mediocre tank with a TD role that can be better suited for a 103B or even the new Swedish medium.  


Now seeing the buff to the 30 B is nice, as it really did need some love, no complaints really here.


And I 100% agree on the 430/430U "nerfs" aren't really nerfs since they are brawling mediums, aim time, dispersion, and turret traverse don't really matter that much in a brawl....so not even real nerfs.


Sometimes I feel like WG doesn't exactly know what to do with the tank lines and just keep adding tanks and then we come to this issue where they all kind of play the same but some are much worse than others.  It feels like they are scrambling to make some kind of changes (some good, some bad) just to keep their word that they are working on re-balancing tanks.

jsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1 #13 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 18:21

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this company is trolling us. no other explanation. even they cannot be that stupud and drunk

Chiaki_Nanamii #14 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 18:38

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Honestly what i think right now is: WG is running out of ideas, they are nerfing/buffing tanks that should never be touch it. They lack of interest in really listen to what players have to say about the game is having a big negative impact inside and outside the game. Pointless premium tanks,Pointless events, etc. World of Tanks its a game that is slowly dying every patch we get something bad, or a lot of useless mechanics changes, The match maker looks boring the prem tanks looks very overpowered or too weak even to make credits cause you can get one shoted by FV drivers with "special shells" so why buy a prem tank at first? they add the HD maps now the game have that "good game" look, but it's only a old and dead game with "make up". Funny is the first sign that a game is dying its the lack of content and when they add some sort of content its pointless and useless to half of the playerbase.

Sure i do agree on the "small" nerf on the 430U. But the big nerf on the STB-1 was useless and will not help STB-1 drivers, if thats was the price to have hydraulic. suspension then the price was too high and wasn't worth at all.

Edited by Chiaki_Nanamii, Apr 23 2019 - 18:40.

Red_pandas #15 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 18:58


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Oh, it's all fun and games until they nerf the stb-1 and buffing already powerful tanks.. gg

redjkent #16 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 21:50


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no tank in this game is op just more complaining from entitled players that think they are god since they are good at a video game, heres a hint if you dont like nerfs or buffs stop complaining its that simple play the game instead of being annoyed at everything

Avalon304 #17 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 22:03


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None of these things are nerfs (except the 430s... those are nerfs). The STB, Leo and AMX 30B will be pretty ok after these changes. Especially when you actually read the charts and realize that some things, like the STBs penetration are not base but at range (the STB penetration is at 500 meters and standard pen at 100m stays the same, and is better effective because normalization). Also its getting a turret armor buff:



Dog_boss1 #18 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 15:02


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wot, developers don't care about players because they don't fix the items that we need> 1st Matchmaker needs to be fixed 3 tiers of tanks in a match don't cut it, and most important they need to address Perks a player with max perks vs one with zero perks you loss. 

I hope all the developers have there resumes up to date because I have had several friends try playing WOT's and they quit the game after a 20 or 30 games because they get blown away in low tier matches by player who have 20,000, 30,000 or even 100,000 games experience. 

Echo1337 #19 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 15:47


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Thank you Chairs, very cool!

Garnett101st #20 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 16:07


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WG should just let the players balance the game, put out a poll asking what tanks need to be nerfed/buffed then another poll asking which specifically would players like to see buff/nerfed on said tanks.

Even the RU players are trashing these proposed ideas.

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