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KRZYBoop's Extravagant Motor Pool: Some Medium tank Rebalances.

KRZY Leo STB1 STB2 430 430U MT Rebalance

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Mikosah #21 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 18:54

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STB- The new hydro suspension by itself may have been all this tank needed, all of these other changes seem wildly unnecessary and counterproductive. If the hydro alone isn't enough to make the STB viable, then adding minor buffs to the dispersion and aim time would do the trick.

 

30b- What I'm seeing here is that its becoming a more typical high tier medium. That's fine, but it begs the question of why the sudden attempt to push the STB into the 30b's current niche. 

 

Leo 1- Desperately needed buffs, but did anyone stop to ask why? The answer is that the sniping niche itself is not especially viable in the current meta. What the Leo really needed was the movement dispersion to not be so static and vulnerable. As of the alpha increase, good intentions but not a good idea. I'd strongly suggest keeping consistent alpha values for given gun calibers and balancing in other ways. 

 

430 and 430u- The armor makes these ridiculously strong in their respective tiers, they are the game's most agile, low-profile heavy tanks. The nerfs I see here do help, but the way to make these behave like mediums is for them to be penetrable like mediums.



Mciracer #22 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 18:54

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View PostBabA_YA6A, on Apr 23 2019 - 18:53, said:

So my question is what's the improvement for the STB-1 with these proposed changes.

 

This

CaptainAlpha7 #23 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 18:55

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You are nerfing the STB's main armament to have penetration and velocity on par with a [edited]t8's gun, and increasing it's dispersion despite complaints to all it's current gun handling statistics.

You are reducing the Leo 1's HP, on a tank which has no armor and does not have the batchat's advantage of being smol. You are reducing it's gold penetration, one of the few things that makes the Leo 1 playable at all.

At the same time, you are buffing it's direct competitor, which, by the way, actually has armor, to have it's current penetration stats, with minimal nerfs that have no effect on its combat capacity.

Changes on the 430 series are a start



BabA_YA6A #24 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 18:58

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View PostMciracer, on Apr 24 2019 - 01:54, said:

 

This

 

You are very informative with your monosyllabic replies.

DomoSapien #25 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 18:59

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View PostBabA_YA6A, on Apr 23 2019 - 11:53, said:

It is nice and dandy you point all that out but the main issue on the STB-1 were the gun specs in particular the dispersion numbers and now wargaming is making them even worse.

So my question is what's the improvement with these proposed changes to the vehicle???

 

The improvement is to make it more comfortable to play in its designated role: mid-range support. Buffing the turret armor + indirectly allowing you to expose less of your turret when poking ridgelines by utilizing the additional gun depression from hydropneumatic suspension should hopefully make it better at mid-range ridgeline play. 

 

Arguably, .01 worse dispersion won't be as painful if you don't have to fire from draw distance at all times. The added gun depression will allow you to take positions you weren't able to before, and expose less of your turret while holding these positions and poking out to fire. 

Another caveat: I think a series of modest buffs, followed by additional buffs if necessary, is a much better course of action than going crazy with buffs and ending up with another 268v4 situation. It's easier to balance up than to balance down, and arguably way less stressful on players.



Mciracer #26 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 19:01

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View PostDomoSapien, on Apr 23 2019 - 18:59, said:

 

The improvement is to make it more comfortable to play in its designated role: mid-range support. Buffing the turret armor + indirectly allowing you to expose less of your turret when poking ridgelines by utilizing the additional gun depression from hydropneumatic suspension should hopefully make it better at mid-range ridgeline play. 

 

And this has what to do with faster reload and in turn pen etc nerfs?

BabA_YA6A #27 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 19:03

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View PostDomoSapien, on Apr 24 2019 - 01:59, said:

 

The improvement is to make it more comfortable to play in its designated role: mid-range support. Buffing the turret armor + indirectly allowing you to expose less of your turret when poking ridgelines by utilizing the additional gun depression from hydropneumatic suspension should hopefully make it better at mid-range ridgeline play. 

 

Arguably, .01 worse dispersion won't be as painful if you don't have to fire from draw distance at all times. The added gun depression will allow you to take positions you weren't able to before, and expose less of your turret while holding these positions and poking out to fire. 

Another caveat: I think a series of modest buffs, followed by additional buffs if necessary, is a much better course of action than going crazy with buffs and ending up with another 268v4 situation. It's easier to balance up than to balance down, and arguably way less stressful on players.

The improvement is to make it more comfortable to play in its designated role: mid-range support... Having three or four of the gokart tanks peppering you to death with the proposed mediocre mobility.

Arguably, .01 worse dispersion won't be as painful if you don't have to fire from draw distance at all times...The dispersion is already utter horse manure on the STB-1 and wargaming makes it even worse. I guess somebody in Минск doesn't know how to calculate, read or has to much Водка every day.

Not to forget giving it almost tier VIII penetration numbers...facepalmic.gif



Necrolegion #28 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 19:08

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That's just a straight up nerf to the STB-1. Like seriously Wargaming, what the f**** are you guys smoking??? The STB-1 has been needed a massive buff for a while now. It's gun handling is horrible AF. It has really bad accuracy for a sniping medium with no armor. What's funny is that other more armored mediums have way better accuracy than the STB-1 (E-50M & Bobjects). Why?!

 

Now, the 430U's problem isn't it's OP gun, it is its ridiculous armor for a medium! The best fix or rebalance would be to tone it down and make it like a weaker or similar 113. Both those tanks are nearly identical, hull, turret and gun, but for some reason the 113 has less armor and is a heavy???? Don't nerf the gun handling on 430U, nerf it's armor!



Ortinoth_ #29 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 19:08

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all i am going to say is i dislike all the changes - to all the mediums since i have most of them - i am just going to say wg has no clue how to properly balance tanks- its a pot of worms that they did due to them not balancing the tanks every year --- or half year since the game was released to the public, and balancing around premium shells it utterly ridiculas too, 

DomoSapien #30 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 19:12

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View PostMciracer, on Apr 23 2019 - 12:01, said:

 

And this has what to do with faster reload and in turn pen etc nerfs?

 

Well I'm not a developer so I apologize if I lack the knowledge to debate this to great lengths - I'm just drawing inferences based on the stats that I see here and the information I've been given.

Dispersion on movement is going down, which means you will have less overall bloom to deal with. Since you theoretically shouldn't be sniping from long range, the .01 additional dispersion won't really feel much worse than it already does. Aim time is being buffed, and DPM is being buffed, so you will have more flexibility, and a shell loaded more often. That'll help you deal with pesky flanking mediums and lights. 


If you're playing it right, and you have a good position, you'll arguably be able to keep poking up, firing, backing off, and repeating. Alpha is nice and generally better than DPM when you're firing at heavily armored targets, but a common weakness of the STB-1 is that it gets melted by smaller targets with higher DPM because its hull armor is virtually nonexistent. 

 

As for the penetration going down on the standard round? Yeah, it's a bummer, and it quite possibly may get rolled back after the initial wave of testing, but personally I don't think that 16mm less penetration is going to make or break the tank. I'd happily trade 16mm of pen on the standard round if it means getting 40-50mm of extra turret armor.

Mobility isn't getting nerfed, either. You're losing a whopping 5km of top speed but gaining 200hp of engine power. Overall, it's going to feel zippier than it did before.

The totality of these stats seems to be directly focused on making the STB-1 better at popping up over ridgelines and harassing. While I do agree that the penetration and dispersion nerfs were possibly unnecessary, this is a step in the right direction and it's likely that further changes will be made to improve penetration and gun handling if it continues to plague the vehicle and hinder the rest of its performance.



Rager56 #31 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 19:16

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I am still waiting for the 121 to become even remotely competitive. Bobjects being introduced completely threw that thing in the trash. It was unique and fun when it came out, but WG decide that the Russians should have a better version of it in their tech tree XD - These changes are making my face twist up - can't all the 105mm guns do the same damage please!?



godofdun #32 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 19:17

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Liking the changes to the 30b, are any of the buffs also going to apply to the 30 Proto?

Joe_Mufferaw #33 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 19:18

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I can't believe it, I went down the more then painful Jap line recently to get the STB-1 because i heard it was getting a well deserved buff. I am disgusted at what I am reading about it now and some of the "buffs" the Leo and others are getting.Can the team at wargaming be this far out of touch from this game.It would seem to me they do not listen to the players. Seems they just want to screw us players that are not interested in going down the new lines and punish us for trying to make the tanks in the old lines work..This game has gone from a great one where i couldn't wait to play with friends,now all my friends and my sons have moved to war thunder and i feel a fool for standing by WOT. Last straw for me.(STB-!) was already not fast enough now it will be slower?

Edited by Joe_Mufferaw, Apr 23 2019 - 19:26.


DomoSapien #34 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 19:19

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View Postgodofdun, on Apr 23 2019 - 12:17, said:

Liking the changes to the 30b, are any of the buffs also going to apply to the 30 Proto?

 

No news on that front at this time, but a little birdie from Minsk told me there will be info about more vehicles coming out very soonTM

View PostJoe_Mufferaw, on Apr 23 2019 - 12:18, said:

I can't believe it, I went down the more then painful Jap line recently to get the STB-1 because i heard it was getting a well deserved buff. I am disgusted at what I am reading about it now and some of the "buffs" the Leo and others are getting.Can the team at wargaming be this far out of touch from this game.It would seem to me they do not listen to the players. Seems they just want to screw us players that are not interested in going down the new lines and punish us for trying to make the tanks in the old lines work. The BS autoloaders which i can't stand, introduction of the bloody wheelies.This game has gone from a great one where i couldn't wait to play with friends,now all my friends and my sons have moved to war thunder and i feel a fool foer standing by WOT. Last straw for me.

I encourage you to read the stats in their entirety, and keep in mind that quite literally none of these stats are final. This is the first wave of rebalancing being announced for medium tanks, 
These are supertest stats, which change quite often, based directly off of player feedback. 

I can't tell you what game to play, but I do ask that you please try to be objective when forming your opinion. It's easy to latch onto the .001 nerf to dispersion, 16mm nerf to penetration, and 5km/h nerf to top speed, while ignoring the increased DPM (and the flexibility it will give you in dealing with lights/mediums that are rushing you and melting your health bar before you can reload), lower dispersion on the move, and better turret armor the vehicle will be receiving in this first iteration of testing.


Overall these changes seem to be aimed at making the STB-1 more comfortable to play in mid-range ridgeline support. Coupled with the hydropneumatic suspension, all of these changes should theoretically allow you to poke over a ridgeline, fire, and retreat more quickly, while exposing less of your turret.

 


Edited by DomoSapien, Apr 23 2019 - 19:27.


Necrolegion #35 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 19:20

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View PostDomoSapien, on Apr 23 2019 - 09:59, said:

 

The improvement is to make it more comfortable to play in its designated role: mid-range support. Buffing the turret armor + indirectly allowing you to expose less of your turret when poking ridgelines by utilizing the additional gun depression from hydropneumatic suspension should hopefully make it better at mid-range ridgeline play. 

 

Arguably, .01 worse dispersion won't be as painful if you don't have to fire from draw distance at all times. The added gun depression will allow you to take positions you weren't able to before, and expose less of your turret while holding these positions and poking out to fire. 

Another caveat: I think a series of modest buffs, followed by additional buffs if necessary, is a much better course of action than going crazy with buffs and ending up with another 268v4 situation. It's easier to balance up than to balance down, and arguably way less stressful on players.

 

Bro, you guys are nerfing the freaking standard shell penetration and alpha!!!! The STB-1 already had a bad RNG reputation due to its inaccurate gun for a tier X medium! All you guys are doing is giving it more RNG, which is what that tank needs less of!

 

On top of this, you are touting the hydropneumatic suspension as the saving grace for it, but honestly, how many maps will you be allowed to exploit this on?! There are already too many corridor maps and it is already laughably weaker than the new Swedish mediums. 

 

All the STB-1 needs is a sniping tank's accuracy and the hydropneumatic suspension. No need for alpha and penetration nerfs and changes. 



BabA_YA6A #36 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 19:23

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View PostDomoSapien, on Apr 24 2019 - 02:12, said:

 

Well I'm not a developer so I apologize if I lack the knowledge to debate this to great lengths - I'm just drawing inferences based on the stats that I see here and the information I've been given.

Dispersion on movement is going down, which means you will have less overall bloom to deal with. Since you theoretically shouldn't be sniping from long range, the .01 additional dispersion won't really feel much worse than it already does. Aim time is being buffed, and DPM is being buffed, so you will have more flexibility, and a shell loaded more often. That'll help you deal with pesky flanking mediums and lights. 


If you're playing it right, and you have a good position, you'll arguably be able to keep poking up, firing, backing off, and repeating. Alpha is nice and generally better than DPM when you're firing at heavily armored targets, but a common weakness of the STB-1 is that it gets melted by smaller targets with higher DPM because its hull armor is virtually nonexistent. 

 

As for the penetration going down on the standard round? Yeah, it's a bummer, and it quite possibly may get rolled back after the initial wave of testing, but personally I don't think that 16mm less penetration is going to make or break the tank. I'd happily trade 16mm of pen on the standard round if it means getting 40-50mm of extra turret armor.

Mobility isn't getting nerfed, either. You're losing a whopping 5km of top speed but gaining 200hp of engine power. Overall, it's going to feel zippier than it did before.

The totality of these stats seems to be directly focused on making the STB-1 better at popping up over ridgelines and harassing. While I do agree that the penetration and dispersion nerfs were possibly unnecessary, this is a step in the right direction and it's likely that further changes will be made to improve penetration and gun handling if it continues to plague the vehicle and hinder the rest of its performance.

 

Mobility isn't getting nerfed, either. You're losing a whopping 5km of top speed but gaining 200hp of engine power. Overall, it's going to feel zippier than it did before...Compared to all other mediums it would be pretty much the worst one in the game. 

flea1951 #37 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 19:24

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Finally got the obj. 430 and it can compete with the high armored tanks. However, I learn today wg will nerf it and the 430U here soon. Great, so why am I grinding this again? WG, please leave well enough alone!!! Stop messing things up for us. It's getting to where it's not worth playing the game.

Mciracer #38 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 19:26

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View PostDomoSapien, on Apr 23 2019 - 19:12, said:

 

Well I'm not a developer so I apologize if I lack the knowledge to debate this to great lengths - I'm just drawing inferences based on the stats that I see here and the information I've been given.

Dispersion on movement is going down, which means you will have less overall bloom to deal with. Since you theoretically shouldn't be sniping from long range, the .01 additional dispersion won't really feel much worse than it already does. Aim time is being buffed, and DPM is being buffed, so you will have more flexibility, and a shell loaded more often. That'll help you deal with pesky flanking mediums and lights. 


If you're playing it right, and you have a good position, you'll arguably be able to keep poking up, firing, backing off, and repeating. Alpha is nice and generally better than DPM when you're firing at heavily armored targets, but a common weakness of the STB-1 is that it gets melted by smaller targets with higher DPM because its hull armor is virtually nonexistent. 

 

As for the penetration going down on the standard round? Yeah, it's a bummer, and it quite possibly may get rolled back after the initial wave of testing, but personally I don't think that 16mm less penetration is going to make or break the tank. I'd happily trade 16mm of pen on the standard round if it means getting 40-50mm of extra turret armor.

Mobility isn't getting nerfed, either. You're losing a whopping 5km of top speed but gaining 200hp of engine power. Overall, it's going to feel zippier than it did before.

The totality of these stats seems to be directly focused on making the STB-1 better at popping up over ridgelines and harassing. While I do agree that the penetration and dispersion nerfs were possibly unnecessary, this is a step in the right direction and it's likely that further changes will be made to improve penetration and gun handling if it continues to plague the vehicle and hinder the rest of its performance.

 

You don't play this game, do you?

 

I don't think you do with such George R R Martin esk fantasy writing.



godofdun #39 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 19:29

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View PostDomoSapien, on Apr 23 2019 - 11:19, said:

 

No news on that front at this time, but a little birdie from Minsk told me there will be info about more vehicles coming out very soonTM

 

 

Fair enough, one could assume the penetration changes would be for both tanks as both use the same gun with the T10 just having better accuracy, rof, soft stats but you know what happens when one assumes......



Snohoe #40 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 19:32

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Finally the 430U is getting looked at! This alongside the type 5 losing its derp are massively good changes for high tier.... Might actually start playing it again.





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