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Crazy nerfs to stb 1


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_Tsavo_ #41 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 02:48

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I don't think it's a nerf or a buff, but a change in how it'll play.   Though I'm generally inexperienced in it and only recently performed decently in tens so my initial feelings from playing it some time ago are probably colored by potato me at tier 10



ThePigSheFlies #42 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 02:55

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View Post_Tsavo_, on Apr 23 2019 - 20:48, said:

I don't think it's a nerf or a buff, but a change in how it'll play.   Though I'm generally inexperienced in it and only recently performed decently in tens so my initial feelings from playing it some time ago are probably colored by potato me at tier 10

 

the proposed changes to the STB are very similar to what they proposed as a "buff" to the Amx 30 line way back that resulted it in it being one of the least played lines, that is now being forced to be buffed...

 

they keep stating "improving turret armor to make it more comfortable to play at mid range support" - they don't know what that means.  the turret will still be penned by the 7+ tier 10 TDs that it will be trying to bait shots from.  and now it will have much less reliable gun than it already did have.  that isn't "comfortable to play"  that's an extension of the already cancerous RNG called random gambling.

 

it's like taking a chance on gas station sushi...

 

oh, and let's not forget on top of that, a LOT of the maps aren't suitable to "ridge line, mid-range support" and that "buffed turret" will still be vulnerable to ru hover meds like the obj 140 which will still be able to pen it right through the face, with more accurate gun as well...

 

you like the Cent 7/1.  imagine playing it with ~15-20 less penetration, and a perpetually broken gun with an injured gunner.  that's how "comfortable" the Amx 30 is now, and how these changes will make the STB...



21Blackjack #43 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 02:57

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View PostHellsfog, on Apr 23 2019 - 17:58, said:

 

The problem with the STB-1 has always been it's gun handling and pen which these changes have made worse. I don't see how that is perceived as a buff. At this point, WG is trolling us. 

 

No they just want you to grind and buy more russian tanks.

Avalon304 #44 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 02:58

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View PostAsassian7, on Apr 23 2019 - 18:31, said:

I like you too, but you're on something strong if you think its a buff.

 

I mean it is though, even before we consider the turret armor buff that its also getting.

 

Straight up the 258mm AP thats its going to have will be strictly better than the 258mm APCR it currently has, despite the penetration at 500m (well outside the effective range of either the pre or post change tank) being worse. And within the ranges that this tank should be engagin in (200-300 meters) the velocity nerfs are super irrelevant.

 

The soft dispersion values when moving the hull and moving the tank itself have been nearly halved, and its getting a better aim time, which means, despite the meaningless nerf to base dispersion (an irrelevant stat) the gun will handle better over all.

 

The speed nerf isnt a huge deal, and youre gaining more speed in reverse, while also gaining ~4 HP/ton meaning you actually stand a chance of maintaining your top speed regularly and will do way better up hills.

 

You even manage to get a DPM buff (however insignificant) despite losing an also insignificant amount of damage per shot. 360 alpha hasnt stopped the tier 9 and 10 italian tanks from being good, and it wont stop this tank either. And you also get faster hull traverse and faster turret traverse.

 

And then theres the buffs to the turret armor.

 

these changes are taking a decidedly bad tank right now and making it, at worst, average.

 

View PostThePigSheFlies, on Apr 23 2019 - 18:55, said:

 

the proposed changes to the STB are very similar to what they proposed as a "buff" to the Amx 30 line way back that resulted it in it being one of the least played lines, that is now being forced to be buffed...

 

they keep stating "improving turret armor to make it more comfortable to play at mid range support" - they don't know what that means.  the turret will still be penned by the 7+ tier 10 TDs that it will be trying to bait shots from.  and now it will have much less reliable gun than it already did have.  that isn't "comfortable to play"  that's an extension of the already cancerous RNG called random gambling.

 

it's like taking a chance on gas station sushi...

 

oh, and let's not forget on top of that, a LOT of the maps aren't suitable to "ridge line, mid-range support" and that "buffed turret" will still be vulnerable to ru hover meds like the obj 140 which will still be able to pen it right through the face, with more accurate gun as well...

 

you like the Cent 7/1.  imagine playing it with ~15-20 less penetration, and a perpetually broken gun with an injured gunner.  that's how "comfortable" the Amx 30 is now, and how these changes will make the STB...

 

 

How are these changes at all like the AMX 30B changes from way back. (Also keep in mind that the tier 9 tank went from being bad to being one of the best tier 9 mediums during those very same changes).

 

The STB-1 isnt lsing any penetration anywhere except at FIVE HUNDRED meters, which is well outside of its current effective range anyway. And the effective penetration of 258mm AP is better than the effective penetration of 258mm APCR... so... thats pretty much a straight buff.

 

The gun is getting improved handling characteristics (in the form of nearly HALVING the movment and hull traverse values) and is getting a faster aimtime, meaning the gunn will be more reliable, especially with that penetration.

 

And plenty of maps work for mid-range support, from ridgelines. Its why I too like the 7/1 (which BTW... I play with a majority of 210mm penetration HESH... meaning I have worse pen than even the current AMX 30B, and compared to the current 30B the 7/1 has absolutely atrocious gun handling).


Edited by Avalon304, Apr 24 2019 - 03:18.


Asassian7 #45 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 03:31

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View PostAvalon304, on Apr 24 2019 - 13:58, said:

 

I mean it is though, even before we consider the turret armor buff that its also getting.

 

Straight up the 258mm AP thats its going to have will be strictly better than the 258mm APCR it currently has, despite the penetration at 500m (well outside the effective range of either the pre or post change tank) being worse. And within the ranges that this tank should be engagin in (200-300 meters) the velocity nerfs are super irrelevant.

 

The soft dispersion values when moving the hull and moving the tank itself have been nearly halved, and its getting a better aim time, which means, despite the meaningless nerf to base dispersion (an irrelevant stat) the gun will handle better over all.

 

The speed nerf isnt a huge deal, and youre gaining more speed in reverse, while also gaining ~4 HP/ton meaning you actually stand a chance of maintaining your top speed regularly and will do way better up hills.

 

You even manage to get a DPM buff (however insignificant) despite losing an also insignificant amount of damage per shot. 360 alpha hasnt stopped the tier 9 and 10 italian tanks from being good, and it wont stop this tank either. And you also get faster hull traverse and faster turret traverse.

 

And then theres the buffs to the turret armor.

 

these changes are taking a decidedly bad tank right now and making it, at worst, average.

 

 

 

How are these changes at all like the AMX 30B changes from way back. (Also keep in mind that the tier 9 tank went from being bad to being one of the best tier 9 mediums during those very same changes).

 

The STB-1 isnt lsing any penetration anywhere except at FIVE HUNDRED meters, which is well outside of its current effective range anyway. And the effective penetration of 258mm AP is better than the effective penetration of 258mm APCR... so... thats pretty much a straight buff.

 

The gun is getting improved handling characteristics (in the form of nearly HALVING the movment and hull traverse values) and is getting a faster aimtime, meaning the gunn will be more reliable, especially with that penetration.

 

And plenty of maps work for mid-range support, from ridgelines. Its why I too like the 7/1 (which BTW... I play with a majority of 210mm penetration HESH... meaning I have worse pen than even the current AMX 30B, and compared to the current 30B the 7/1 has absolutely atrocious gun handling).

It is, at absolute best, a "change" that doesnt make it any better. 

 

They are rebalancing it completely and unnesesseraly. Right now its "average" rather than "bad". All it needed was like 0.2 seconds off its aim time, a bit off its max bloom, a turret face buff, and maybe a reload buff.

 

But they are changing everything on it to make it play differently. That is rediculous. The speed doesn't need nerfing. (Nor does the view range for that matter but bugger it) Im not even that mad about the alpha/DPM change. (But quite frankly given the option Id keep the alpha) The velocity being insignificant? What? Its losing a third of its velocity. You try hitting EBRs doing full clat on 250 ping. That APCR speed is what makes it possible. I cant hit them worth a damn with slower shells. Heck, if APCR is going to be its its gold, it shouldnt be slower than AP. If its keeping HEAT yeah it makes sense but not with APCR.

 

If that 232 pen is just the dropoff value, its fine. But if its the actual standard pen value WG can suck it. 

 

If the suspension works like the STRVs and you have to wait 2 seconds to change into seige mode to get more accuracy/DPM then its flat out ruined. You cant have an aggressive medium tank that has to stay still in a siege mode that can only do 10kph or so, if it wants to be able to shoot stuff.

 

I will try it. I dont like any of these changes. Id frankly rather they left it alone. But I dont trust WG, they haven't given me a single reason to trust that they know what they are doing in the last 2 years. 

 

In that stat sheet, if you get rid of the speed nerf and the shell velocity nerf (and I dare you to try and argue that those nerfs are needed because you said yourself it'd be average at best with these changes) it would be a buff. As it is? No. 



Avalon304 #46 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 03:42

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View PostAsassian7, on Apr 23 2019 - 19:31, said:

It is, at absolute best, a "change" that doesnt make it any better. 

 

They are rebalancing it completely and unnesesseraly. Right now its "average" rather than "bad". All it needed was like 0.2 seconds off its aim time, a bit off its max bloom, a turret face buff, and maybe a reload buff.

 

But they are changing everything on it to make it play differently. That is rediculous. The speed doesn't need nerfing. (Nor does the view range for that matter but bugger it) Im not even that mad about the alpha/DPM change. (But quite frankly given the option Id keep the alpha) The velocity being insignificant? What? Its losing a third of its velocity. You try hitting EBRs doing full clat on 250 ping. That APCR speed is what makes it possible. I cant hit them worth a damn with slower shells. Heck, if APCR is going to be its its gold, it shouldnt be slower than AP. If its keeping HEAT yeah it makes sense but not with APCR.

 

If that 232 pen is just the dropoff value, its fine. But if its the actual standard pen value WG can suck it. 

 

If the suspension works like the STRVs and you have to wait 2 seconds to change into seige mode to get more accuracy/DPM then its flat out ruined. You cant have an aggressive medium tank that has to stay still in a siege mode that can only do 10kph or so, if it wants to be able to shoot stuff.

 

I will try it. I dont like any of these changes. Id frankly rather they left it alone. But I dont trust WG, they haven't given me a single reason to trust that they know what they are doing in the last 2 years. 

 

In that stat sheet, if you get rid of the speed nerf and the shell velocity nerf (and I dare you to try and argue that those nerfs are needed because you said yourself it'd be average at best with these changes) it would be a buff. As it is? No. 

 

Yes... the veolcity is irrelevant. I know youre in Austrailia... but not much can be done about that. At 200-300 meters, against most tanks that arent an EBR the difference between 1400m/s and 1000m/s is pretty much nothing. And 200-300 meters is where this new version should be, and was where the old SD STB-1 would have been, specifically because of its atrocious gun handling.

 

Yes the tank is keeping HEAT, its just getting a standard AP round and not APCR.

 

The 232 pen is the drop off value at 500m. It even says this right below the stat card in the article. An clarifies that the base penetraion is remaining the same as it is currently.

 

I suspect the suspension will work like the new mediums, where it will automatically switch when you drop below a certain speed, and turn off when you go above a certain speed. I forget the exact values for the Swedish mediums, but it isnt a player toggle in them. (I wanna say its some like go below 10kph and siege mode engages and then going above like 18kph disengages siege mode). I also dont think the suspension in the swedish mediums affects their gun stats at all, just grants them more gun depression. Id also expect that this tank will have a max gun depression of -12 after these changes, but I dont know if WG is gonna nerf the non-siege depression from -10 to -6 (which is what it would have had), and then give it -6 from the suspension too.

 

Yes, with these changes it will be, at worst, average. But its currently "bad" so being average is an improvement. I think that the velocity and speed nerfs are consistent with what WG is trying to make the tank into (rather than the garbage jack of all trades that it currently is because even otehr jack of all trades tank do things better than the STB-1).



Stevenwt #47 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 04:01

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Well hopefully the people I saw who were running Swedish mediums on test did not know what they were doing but the matches I was in the swediums were meh inspiring at best.

 

I almost wonder if the developers noticed this and gave the tank the new suspension just to get another version to run it in test so they had a diferent type to see how that played out.



Avalon304 #48 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 04:04

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View PostStevenwt, on Apr 23 2019 - 20:01, said:

Well hopefully the people I saw who were running Swedish mediums on test did not know what they were doing but the matches I was in the swediums were meh inspiring at best.

 

I almost wonder if the developers noticed this and gave the tank the new suspension just to get another version to run it in test so they had a diferent type to see how that played out.

 

It'll take time for people to understand the new system, just like it took time for peopleto understand the autorelaoding system and the original Swedish TD siege mode. The test server isnt usually up for long enough for people to actually learn how to best use the new systems and most people are also fighting like higher than average pings to the server that make tanks feel as if theyre moving through molasass.

Asassian7 #49 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 04:10

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View PostAvalon304, on Apr 24 2019 - 14:42, said:

 

Yes... the veolcity is irrelevant. I know youre in Austrailia... but not much can be done about that. At 200-300 meters, against most tanks that arent an EBR the difference between 1400m/s and 1000m/s is pretty much nothing. And 200-300 meters is where this new version should be, and was where the old SD STB-1 would have been, specifically because of its atrocious gun handling.

 

Yes the tank is keeping HEAT, its just getting a standard AP round and not APCR.

 

The 232 pen is the drop off value at 500m. It even says this right below the stat card in the article. An clarifies that the base penetraion is remaining the same as it is currently.

 

I suspect the suspension will work like the new mediums, where it will automatically switch when you drop below a certain speed, and turn off when you go above a certain speed. I forget the exact values for the Swedish mediums, but it isnt a player toggle in them. (I wanna say its some like go below 10kph and siege mode engages and then going above like 18kph disengages siege mode). I also dont think the suspension in the swedish mediums affects their gun stats at all, just grants them more gun depression. Id also expect that this tank will have a max gun depression of -12 after these changes, but I dont know if WG is gonna nerf the non-siege depression from -10 to -6 (which is what it would have had), and then give it -6 from the suspension too.

 

Yes, with these changes it will be, at worst, average. But its currently "bad" so being average is an improvement. I think that the velocity and speed nerfs are consistent with what WG is trying to make the tank into (rather than the garbage jack of all trades that it currently is because even otehr jack of all trades tank do things better than the STB-1).

Im glad about the suspension, that was my biggest fear. 

 

As for the pen changes, the only stat sheet I was sent had it at 232, no mention about it being the dropoff value, and saying its gold will be APCR. (Id rather it had APCR frankly)

 

But that is my biggest issue. They are trying to mold it into a specialised role that will not improve it. Id honestly argue that right now, removing personal bias, its one of the better T10 meds, after the RU meds, M48, and Cent AX. (And probably the TVP) 

 

And thats the thing. It was never a crappy "jack of all trades" it was an agressive Ridgeline DPM monster. And it stayed like that until WG added or buffed other tanks into doing its role as well or better... Such as the Cent AX and Patton. Which these days can both hull down and out gun handle it (and the Patton matches its DPM)

 

The only change its ever received since it was released in 8.10! Was, IIRC, the HD rework. Otherwise, it hasnt been touched at all. 

 

So my question to you is WHY does it need its speed nerfed, and why does it need slower shells? I can get slower for the APCR-AP change, but not that much slower. And also the HEAT doesn't need to be slower.

 

As for its speed, they could leave its engine power and speedsas it is. I wouldnt care.



Avalon304 #50 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 05:12

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View PostAsassian7, on Apr 23 2019 - 20:10, said:

Im glad about the suspension, that was my biggest fear. 

 

As for the pen changes, the only stat sheet I was sent had it at 232, no mention about it being the dropoff value, and saying its gold will be APCR. (Id rather it had APCR frankly)

 

But that is my biggest issue. They are trying to mold it into a specialised role that will not improve it. Id honestly argue that right now, removing personal bias, its one of the better T10 meds, after the RU meds, M48, and Cent AX. (And probably the TVP) 

 

And thats the thing. It was never a crappy "jack of all trades" it was an agressive Ridgeline DPM monster. And it stayed like that until WG added or buffed other tanks into doing its role as well or better... Such as the Cent AX and Patton. Which these days can both hull down and out gun handle it (and the Patton matches its DPM)

 

The only change its ever received since it was released in 8.10! Was, IIRC, the HD rework. Otherwise, it hasnt been touched at all. 

 

So my question to you is WHY does it need its speed nerfed, and why does it need slower shells? I can get slower for the APCR-AP change, but not that much slower. And also the HEAT doesn't need to be slower.

 

As for its speed, they could leave its engine power and speedsas it is. I wouldnt care.

 

Check the article again, the pen changes only affect the 500m drop off range.

 

I mean theyre essentially trying to give it back the role it had when it was SD. Because it isnt that anymore, and morphed in to a bad jack of all trades whent he HD rework came around, because it lost what armor it did have. Theyre literally trying to make it a brawling ridge fighter again. Theyre trying to emphasize that by tailoring its stats to engagements in those ranges. AP shells with more effective penetration compared to APCR, while being slower. Same for HEAT, while you get to keep the 330mm penetration and have almost the same shell velocity as your standard round, meaning it'll be easier to adjust between them. its going to be come the tank it was again, while still out DPMing the Patton by 100+ DPM.

 

Youre going to have a low profile, DPM ridgeline warrior, with a good handling gun and potentially more gun depression than it has now, and definitly more turret armor. Your speed is not meaningfully being nerfed, but youre going to be able to poke ridgelines better because your acceleration up hills will be better and you'll back down off them quicker too.

 

Its becoming more specialized in the role it used to have back in its SD days.



Asassian7 #51 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 07:07

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View PostAvalon304, on Apr 24 2019 - 16:12, said:

 

Check the article again, the pen changes only affect the 500m drop off range.

 

I mean theyre essentially trying to give it back the role it had when it was SD. Because it isnt that anymore, and morphed in to a bad jack of all trades whent he HD rework came around, because it lost what armor it did have. Theyre literally trying to make it a brawling ridge fighter again. Theyre trying to emphasize that by tailoring its stats to engagements in those ranges. AP shells with more effective penetration compared to APCR, while being slower. Same for HEAT, while you get to keep the 330mm penetration and have almost the same shell velocity as your standard round, meaning it'll be easier to adjust between them. its going to be come the tank it was again, while still out DPMing the Patton by 100+ DPM.

 

Youre going to have a low profile, DPM ridgeline warrior, with a good handling gun and potentially more gun depression than it has now, and definitly more turret armor. Your speed is not meaningfully being nerfed, but youre going to be able to poke ridgelines better because your acceleration up hills will be better and you'll back down off them quicker too.

 

Its becoming more specialized in the role it used to have back in its SD days.

Then I hope to god you are right, because All I see right now is my favourite tank being ruined.

 

And for what its worth, I feel it'll lose a lot of its character. I know this is a stupid complaint but it feels to me like its so much more full of character than a lot of the other tanks. to me it feels so much more enjoyable and rewarding to play because of that character. And I dont want it to change - even if it becomes really good, it could become just boring to play. At least for me.

Again. Fav tank. I literally adore this thing like Id adore my own child. Probably not healthy. ;_;



Avalon304 #52 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 07:40

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View PostAsassian7, on Apr 23 2019 - 23:07, said:

Then I hope to god you are right, because All I see right now is my favourite tank being ruined.

 

And for what its worth, I feel it'll lose a lot of its character. I know this is a stupid complaint but it feels to me like its so much more full of character than a lot of the other tanks. to me it feels so much more enjoyable and rewarding to play because of that character. And I dont want it to change - even if it becomes really good, it could become just boring to play. At least for me.

Again. Fav tank. I literally adore this thing like Id adore my own child. Probably not healthy. ;_;

 

Now you know how I felt when they destroyed the 7/1's character by giving it mostly useless levels of turret armor.

Asassian7 #53 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 11:49

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View PostAvalon304, on Apr 24 2019 - 18:40, said:

 

Now you know how I felt when they destroyed the 7/1's character by giving it mostly useless levels of turret armor.

 

I thought they buffed it?

That1Villain #54 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 12:39

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I'm going to keep my opinions reserved until I have a chance to play the changed STB but I'm not very hopeful, if it's going to be a mix of the swedes and the pizza tanks then it'll be meh at best. It was my first t10 and my favorite tank in the game, it'll be a sad day to see it changed

Kliphie #55 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 13:49

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Off topic, but it's heartening to see a "this suck" vs "this is ok" exchange turn into a real conversation with limited hyperbole.  

ThePigSheFlies #56 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 14:08

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View PostAsassian7, on Apr 24 2019 - 05:49, said:

 

I thought they buffed it?

 

they did.  and it kept the even higher pen, and laser gun shell velocity.

 

I still play the Amx 30 occasionally, but I find it laughable that anyone would consider it "one of the best tier 9 meds"  - if that were true they'd be way more prevalent for one...



_Tsavo_ #57 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 15:32

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View PostKliphie, on Apr 24 2019 - 07:49, said:

Off topic, but it's heartening to see a "this suck" vs "this is ok" exchange turn into a real conversation with limited hyperbole.  

 

There's a lot of good dudes here, Asassain and Avalon (and Pig) are all not prone to thinking with emotions and we're all capable of engaging in civilized chats.  Ask Avalon, there's a ton of stuff he and I don't agree on (Like the Comet is a stupendous medium)

 

Unfortunately, far too many members here aren't capable of real conversations



Garnett101st #58 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 16:10

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View PostThePigSheFlies, on Apr 23 2019 - 20:55, said:

 

the proposed changes to the STB are very similar to what they proposed as a "buff" to the Amx 30 line way back that resulted it in it being one of the least played lines, that is now being forced to be buffed...

 

they keep stating "improving turret armor to make it more comfortable to play at mid range support" - they don't know what that means.  the turret will still be penned by the 7+ tier 10 TDs that it will be trying to bait shots from.  and now it will have much less reliable gun than it already did have.  that isn't "comfortable to play"  that's an extension of the already cancerous RNG called random gambling.

 

it's like taking a chance on gas station sushi...

 

oh, and let's not forget on top of that, a LOT of the maps aren't suitable to "ridge line, mid-range support" and that "buffed turret" will still be vulnerable to ru hover meds like the obj 140 which will still be able to pen it right through the face, with more accurate gun as well...

 

you like the Cent 7/1.  imagine playing it with ~15-20 less penetration, and a perpetually broken gun with an injured gunner.  that's how "comfortable" the Amx 30 is now, and how these changes will make the STB...

 I love that people are noticing that WG has used 25% RNG for balancing since the closed beta. Reducing the RNG would solve most of the issues. 



The_Next_Penetration #59 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 16:30

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This is a high alpha or autoloader game. Low alpha high dpm tanks are always fail at high tier. You can use them effectively as long as artillery is in the game

wganz_87 #60 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 19:14

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it appears that the Japanese Tier VIII's are also getting some changes:
 

Block Quote

In addition, we're going to rebalance the performance of some other vehicles in the Japanese Tech Tree, especially those sitting at Tier VIII, the STA-1 and the STA-2. The DPM of the STA-1 will increase, making it more competitive. 
We also carefully analyzed your feedback regarding the STA-2 and its gameplay and realized this mobile tank could be even more effective, so we will also slightly improve some of its key characteristics. We will unveil the detailed changes of this Premium machine a bit later, after finalizing the settings of other vehicles. 

 

 

 






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