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Leopard 1 Power/Weight Ratio Changes


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Prosqtor #21 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 09:49

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View PostNeatoMan, on Apr 23 2019 - 18:29, said:

 

having been through multiple rounds of these so-called "buffs" to german tanks, I'm not gonna hold my breath.  The most I ever expect from these "buffs" are that it will become barely passable instead of outright terrible.   That's been the m.o. since the beginning.

 

Ha, the rare NeatoMan POed comment.  Personally, I think the "snipers" at higher tiers are not so effective because the maps are too small.  In FL or Grand Battles, those types of tanks are much more fun to play.

 



jdub11 #22 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 11:55

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This tank in its current form is really fun to play when you get a map where it can engage at 300m from behind cover and reposition to play the snip or flank and spank gameplay. However, its camo value has something to be desired to really excel in the majority of tight maps in rotation. I would love to see the camo rating equal to the batchat's.

I also agree with WG buff in alfa damage. Its needed do the power creap, but please dont nerf the reverse gear at all. The REAL tank had 25 reverse plus in game this tank needs every advantage. Nurfing reverse will make it very undesirable. Plus, you want to lower the power? Really? Lets make this tank part of the meta! Take away the hit points, sure. Or... give it the camo stated above and then take your reverse , power decreases then we have a good trade to bring this tank back to meta.

 

 

 

 



Unkempt40k #23 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 16:13

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View PostFastForward7, on Apr 24 2019 - 04:38, said:

 

Wait, WG implements different changes for the various platforms? What sense does that make?

 

Great signature quote, BTW. I really need to go back and watch that. 

 

Yes, console is very different with regards to balancing. It does make sense in that the gameplay is a bit different. Most new tanks arrive already nerfed.

nac2011 #24 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 16:25

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View PostFastForward7, on Apr 23 2019 - 22:38, said:

 

Wait, WG implements different changes for the various platforms? What sense does that make?

 

Great signature quote, BTW. I really need to go back and watch that. 

 

Keep in mind, WoT console is balanced to attract a different type of gamer. It's a lot faster, and at times less deliberate of a game than WoT PC. 

24cups #25 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 16:26

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View PostJakeTheMystic, on Apr 23 2019 - 17:21, said:

"Lets increase the top speed of the Leopard to the speed of sound"

 

"Lets also nerf the engine power to just above 2 snails"

Next: increase pen to automatic.  Nerf alpha to 2.



NeatoMan #26 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 16:42

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View PostRickEdwards, on Apr 23 2019 - 16:09, said:

Honestly, I feel that this part of the changes is not really necessary... Of course, they don't actually say what the change is specifically, so I can't say much besides the fact that having all that speed is not all that great if it takes a long time to get up to max speed; the bat-chat already has a higher hp/t ratio and goes 65 km/hr, so I bet, with the lower hp/t ratio of the new Leo, the bat will likely still be able to beat it to most places, effectively rendering it's "fastest medium in the game" title meaningless.

 

But, yeah, I would like to know what the proposed changes are in terms of power/weight ratio.

so basically the only time a Leopard 1 will attain max speed is if it's rolling down a big hill...    :sceptic:



RickEdwards #27 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 18:14

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View PostNeatoMan, on Apr 24 2019 - 16:42, said:

so basically the only time a Leopard 1 will attain max speed is if it's rolling down a big hill...    :sceptic:

 

It depends on what they change it too, but as it is now it actually does not accelerate all that quickly; about average for a medium if anything. They should honestly improve its engine power as well as the speed buff. Hopefully they'll see that when it is tested on supertest...

jsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1 #28 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 19:41

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make it as slow as the e50 :)))))

 

BUFFED!!

 

 



jsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1 #29 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 19:43

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View Postjdub11, on Apr 24 2019 - 11:55, said:

This tank in its current form is really fun to play when you get a map where it can engage at 300m from behind cover and reposition to play the snip or flank and spank gameplay. However, its camo value has something to be desired to really excel in the majority of tight maps in rotation. I would love to see the camo rating equal to the batchat's.

I also agree with WG buff in alfa damage. Its needed do the power creap, but please dont nerf the reverse gear at all. The REAL tank had 25 reverse plus in game this tank needs every advantage. Nurfing reverse will make it very undesirable. Plus, you want to lower the power? Really? Lets make this tank part of the meta! Take away the hit points, sure. Or... give it the camo stated above and then take your reverse , power decreases then we have a good trade to bring this tank back to meta.

 

 

 

 

 

well keep preaching. they want the tank to be autolit. it has the worst camo rating in the tier i believe. about half the camo of the rusmeds (which already have it bad).

 

with the WG map changes and the draw distance changes, there are no places you can play it out of view on all but 2 maps.if you want to do damage, you have to be lit. if you are lit you get shot. you get shot, you get penned.

 

 



RickEdwards #30 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 20:20

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View Postjsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1, on Apr 24 2019 - 19:43, said:

 

well keep preaching. they want the tank to be autolit. it has the worst camo rating in the tier i believe. about half the camo of the rusmeds (which already have it bad).

 

with the WG map changes and the draw distance changes, there are no places you can play it out of view on all but 2 maps.if you want to do damage, you have to be lit. if you are lit you get shot. you get shot, you get penned.

 

 

 

What draw distance changes are you talking about? And 30% camo rating is about what the leo has; it's enough to play sneakily.

jsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1 #31 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 20:32

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View PostRickEdwards, on Apr 24 2019 - 20:20, said:

 

What draw distance changes are you talking about? And 30% camo rating is about what the leo has; it's enough to play sneakily.

 

your first question pretty much determines your follow up statement should be ignored.

 

 



RickEdwards #32 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 22:00

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View Postjsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1, on Apr 24 2019 - 20:32, said:

 

your first question pretty much determines your follow up statement should be ignored.

 

 

 

Im wondering if you mean some new one that I haven't seen or the one that happened like 2 years ago, which is irrelevant. 30% makes you invisible from fairly near tanks (while in a bush) as long as you don't fire, so you can fire and then hide until unspotted and repeat.

SteelRonin #33 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 22:11

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Remember:

 

- German Buffs mean German Nerfs

- Russian Nerfs mean Russian Rework that actually mean Russian Buffs..



jsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1 #34 Posted Apr 25 2019 - 08:28

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View PostRickEdwards, on Apr 24 2019 - 22:00, said:

 

Im wondering if you mean some new one that I haven't seen or the one that happened like 2 years ago, which is irrelevant. 30% makes you invisible from fairly near tanks (while in a bush) as long as you don't fire, so you can fire and then hide until unspotted and repeat.

 

yes thats the one i mean. where its a hard circle vs the nice square that allowed you to really reach and touch people. that REALLY affected this tank a lot! 

 

what camo 30%?? thats a pointless [edited]value %. look at the actual on the move/stationary values. they are half those of RUmeds. just about anything can autolight you at max range.. including a non trash is7 player. thats literally the only problem with the tank. everything else is beating around the bush.it needs camo on par with its armor.. what do you think will happen if you give the strv the same camo as the leo? we should try it! if you tink 30% whataever you are blabbing about is "fine". lets give everything the same value. no? why not? i thought it was FINE?



ThatoneguyKaz #35 Posted Apr 25 2019 - 12:27

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View Postjsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1, on Apr 25 2019 - 08:28, said:

 

yes thats the one i mean. where its a hard circle vs the nice square that allowed you to really reach and touch people. that REALLY affected this tank a lot! 

 

what camo 30%?? thats a pointless [edited]value %. look at the actual on the move/stationary values. they are half those of RUmeds. just about anything can autolight you at max range.. including a non trash is7 player. thats literally the only problem with the tank. everything else is beating around the bush.it needs camo on par with its armor.. what do you think will happen if you give the strv the same camo as the leo? we should try it! if you tink 30% whataever you are blabbing about is "fine". lets give everything the same value. no? why not? i thought it was FINE?

My leo1 has 24% stationary camo. 

 

A base ru med has 16%(obj 140). I imagine a ton of people dont run camo skill until later, although may run the directive. So maybe 25ish% with camo all said and done, their full camo systems arent super far apart. 

 

Leo is 10% base in movement

140 is 12%

 

140 is an incredibly smaller tank, really the 2% differential is fairly generous to the leo

 

Really id like to see the leo get a more modern turret, atleast one that isnt insta pen wxcept on the rarest of angles



RickEdwards #36 Posted Apr 25 2019 - 14:15

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View Postjsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1, on Apr 25 2019 - 08:28, said:

 

yes thats the one i mean. where its a hard circle vs the nice square that allowed you to really reach and touch people. that REALLY affected this tank a lot! 

 

what camo 30%?? thats a pointless [edited]value %. look at the actual on the move/stationary values. they are half those of RUmeds. just about anything can autolight you at max range.. including a non trash is7 player. thats literally the only problem with the tank. everything else is beating around the bush.it needs camo on par with its armor.. what do you think will happen if you give the strv the same camo as the leo? we should try it! if you tink 30% whataever you are blabbing about is "fine". lets give everything the same value. no? why not? i thought it was FINE?

 

You are the first person I have ever seen who thought the square was a good thing... It wasn't; it was the dumbest mechanic ever. Like, your commander can see further away if he looks diagonally in relation to the map? It was dumb af.

 

Did you really just use the STRV as if it was a balanced tank to compare to? Should the STRV get less camo? YES!!! That thing is so stupidly broken. But my Leo has a bit under 30% (like 29.8 or something) and tanks have to get really close to spot it in a bush; it is by no means a small amount of camo... In fact, once I get home in like 12 hours, I'll go into a training room with someone and tell you exactly how close and how much VR they have. If you had any idea about the spotting mechanics in this game, you'd know that camo beats view range by a lot in pretty much all situations.



Trauglodyte #37 Posted Apr 25 2019 - 18:16

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View PostAvalon304, on Apr 24 2019 - 01:11, said:

 

All of the changes to the STB, AMX and Leo are pretty much overall buffs for the tanks in question. They all look great.

 

I would argue, in part that the struggle of the Leopard 1 has more to do with map design and its inability to be hull down, in a game where hull down is the greatest capability to win, than anything.  The changes are great and absolutely buff the tank.  But, the paper armor on it and the now slower off-the-line speed will continue to hold it back  Sniping doesn't mean anything if there is no ground to run to, in order to snipe.  I love the changes, so don't get that wrong, and I don't necessary want them to turn the Leo 1 into the Leo 1A3, where it is has a mega tower.  But, there is something to be said about the ability to bound SOME shots off of its turret.  It can't even bounce a tier 8 Light tank, with that armor profile.

 

Rolling it out as the Leopard 1A1 would be a find compromise, since the 1A1A1 added spaced armor to the turret on the gun mantlet area, to protect the turret face, along with side skirts (added armor on the hull sides), vision upgrades, etc.

 

What we have in game:

 

 

What we could have, with the Leopard 1A1A4:

 

 

Same production run, but with added spaced armor to the turret.  And, all of that was in the first year or two, post-production.  The overall thickness of the turret never changed, until the Leopard 1A3 was released and it has a completely different tower design.  The 1A1A3 and 1A1A4 kept the Leopard 1 turret, thus turning it into a Leopard 1 AX, if you will.

 

View PostNeatoMan, on Apr 24 2019 - 16:42, said:

so basically the only time a Leopard 1 will attain max speed is if it's rolling down a big hill...    :sceptic:

 

That is essentially all of the German tanks that aren't Lights or Lidiums (Leopard VKs at tier 6 and 7).  I am a firm conspiracy believer that this is one of the reasons why WarGaming removed the speed monitor on the base UI HUD with the WoT 1.0 release.  Prior to that, you could see how fast you were going AND your top speed limit.  Now, we just get the speed limit with no indication of how close you are to capping.

 

I also like how tanks have some weird speed governor that prevents you from ever going super fast, down a hill.  Poor Tiger II has a 37 kph speed limit and won't go past 45 kph on a downward slope, no matter what.  Bet it doesn't even break 45 kph, falling off of a cliff!


Edited by Trauglodyte, Apr 25 2019 - 18:17.


Sergeant_Buzzkill #38 Posted Apr 25 2019 - 20:22

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For all intents and purposes the so-called "buffs" to the Leo 1 will be ineffective.  Let's be honest, no one EVER comes out of a game with the Leo 1 and says, "Man, they really need to buff the gun handling on this tank!"  Let me give you the top 5 most needed buffs for the Leo 1, in no particular order:

1) The armor

2) The armor

3) The armor

4) The armor

4) The armor

 

You can even make the case this "buff" will actually be a nerf.  First of all, they're dropping HEAT ammo for APCR and making AP the base ammo.  HEAT has 330 pen and is unaffected by distance.  Poor velocity, but reliable penetration.  The AP rounds will have lower velocity than the current APCR standard rounds.  With the APCR rounds becoming the new premium rounds, they'll have great velocity, but subject to pen degradation over distance--probably sub 300 MM over 200 meters.  Good for T9 and T8 tanks, but marginally effective for T10 tanks unless you're getting flush side or rear shots.  Oh btw, let's nerf the reverse speed and take the nerf bat to the hp/t ratio!  That way, if you get lit you're sure to get hit with that paper armor because you can't get away fast enough.  I mean, the Leo 1 is big enough for a Type 5 heavy to snapshot at 300 meters (been there, done that).

 

WG hates snipers.  That's why they're always removing key bushes and adding obstacles to block it.  Anyone that's played sniping TDs knows exactly what I'm talking about.  Don't kid yourself, this is a nerf wrapped in a middle finger.

 

Oh, almost forgot.  Remember that they're lowering the damage of premium ammo to curtail the usage.  So that awesome velocity will be meaningless if they go through with that change.


Edited by Sergeant_Buzzkill, Apr 25 2019 - 20:26.


RickEdwards #39 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 03:04

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View PostSergeant_Buzzkill, on Apr 25 2019 - 20:22, said:

For all intents and purposes the so-called "buffs" to the Leo 1 will be ineffective.  Let's be honest, no one EVER comes out of a game with the Leo 1 and says, "Man, they really need to buff the gun handling on this tank!"  Let me give you the top 5 most needed buffs for the Leo 1, in no particular order:

1) The armor

2) The armor

3) The armor

4) The armor

4) The armor

 

You can even make the case this "buff" will actually be a nerf.  First of all, they're dropping HEAT ammo for APCR and making AP the base ammo.  HEAT has 330 pen and is unaffected by distance.  Poor velocity, but reliable penetration.  The AP rounds will have lower velocity than the current APCR standard rounds.  With the APCR rounds becoming the new premium rounds, they'll have great velocity, but subject to pen degradation over distance--probably sub 300 MM over 200 meters.  Good for T9 and T8 tanks, but marginally effective for T10 tanks unless you're getting flush side or rear shots.  Oh btw, let's nerf the reverse speed and take the nerf bat to the hp/t ratio!  That way, if you get lit you're sure to get hit with that paper armor because you can't get away fast enough.  I mean, the Leo 1 is big enough for a Type 5 heavy to snapshot at 300 meters (been there, done that).

 

WG hates snipers.  That's why they're always removing key bushes and adding obstacles to block it.  Anyone that's played sniping TDs knows exactly what I'm talking about.  Don't kid yourself, this is a nerf wrapped in a middle finger.

 

Oh, almost forgot.  Remember that they're lowering the damage of premium ammo to curtail the usage.  So that awesome velocity will be meaningless if they go through with that change.

 

If you really think 300 mm of pen is not enough to pen any tank from the front, then you are crazy; the standard APCR with 268 mm base pen that it has right now is enough for all but the super heavies from the front at 500 m... Also, pen drop-off for tier 10 ammo is laughably small. Except for light tanks ammo... I would definitely not call this a nerf, but I wouldn't call it much of a buff either at this point, in any case.

Avalon304 #40 Posted Apr 27 2019 - 05:22

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View PostTrauglodyte, on Apr 25 2019 - 10:16, said:

 

Rolling it out as the Leopard 1A1 would be a find compromise, since the 1A1A1 added spaced armor to the turret on the gun mantlet area, to protect the turret face, along with side skirts (added armor on the hull sides), vision upgrades, etc.

 

 

The 1A1A1 only added 20mm of spaced armor to the turret, which wouldnt change much about the current Leopard, certainly wouldnt turn it into the "Leopard AX" with a turret capable of reliably sitting hull down on a ridge. You'd still get easily penned by tier 9 and 10 tanks with ease. And the sideskirts were like 5mm thick, so even they wouldnt be super relevant. The tank would still rely on troll bounces to actually bounce a shell.

 

None of the Leopard variants had what would be considered good armor in this game. The Leopard 1 was from a time when the general thoughts on tank development were "forget armor, give me speed and a good gun" because high penetration HEAT and APDS rounds could penetrate just about anything at the time. Anyone suggesting armor buffs for the Leopard 1 doesnt understand the Leopard 1.

 

If you want armor, play a different tank, the Leopard has never been about armor in this game. Nor should it be, otherwise youre just turning it into a clone of another tank.






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