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Control of Center vs Control of Flanks: Why do so many players cede the advantage?

Ghost Town Ehrlenburg

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BlackFive #1 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 21:25

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Ehrlenburg and Ghost Town.

Two maps I really enjoy - mostly because most players seem to fail to understand flank control.  They're 'easy to farm' maps.

.

But why do players not understand that giving up control of both flanks is an absolutely stupid proposition?  Too often, on both Ehrlenburg and Ghost Town, I see players blithely head straight into the urban areas in the center of the maps... only to be hammered by tanks on the flanks.  Why?  What kind of cookies are they serving in town?

.

Ghost town literally cannot be won without control of at least one flank.  But so many teams try.  Ehrlenburg isn't quite as bad - people at least try for the Castle (I prefer the hills on the other side myself) - but still; teams doddle into the buildings and then... stop.  It's absurd.  Put 1/3 of the team on a flank - any flank... and you can all move up.  Drive into town without flank control?  Buh bye.

.

Don't tell me it's arty fear.  I've taken all kinds of tanks into the hills and made them work (maybe not blind bat tanks) ... but why?

.

Someone explain this to me, please


Edited by BlackFive, Apr 24 2019 - 21:26.


GenPanzer #2 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 21:36

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It's arty protection. Sadly, that's the reason.

 

Actually it's probably also because nobody wants to see a heavy sniping. And, if you leave the center open, then you will be shot from there as you push a flank. A presence needs to be in all three fronts. But, one or two need only push. All the players need to read the map to realize this and make it happen.

 

Of course, with missions, nobody wants to be the guy that sits on a corner for 75% of the game waiting for the other flank to win and get there to help finish off the team.

 

It's what makes all battle unique and dynamic from each other.



cloudwalkr #3 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 21:50

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Ghost town, most players don't know how to read the inner city layout and don't realize you are wide open to fire...so they pull the ol 'ostrich' tactic...they think by going into the city they will only fight things infront of them when it's just not the case.  

 

In my opinion, this is a huge reason why Ghost town is a bad map.  The middle is basically unplayable if anyone on the outsides has a clue what they are doing.  

 

I feel like all I do is complain about maps lately, but yes...again...this is another bad map put out by WG where most of the map is unplayable death traps.  Not to mention the 'sniping' positions in all 4 corners design to entice red line (corner of the map) sniping.  It is a great farming map for those who understand how to play it though.  I regularly get high numbers on that map, so on the one hand I somewhat enjoy playing it...but I can 100% see the HUGE map flaws it has.

 

@GenPanzer - Arty safe is a misnomer in this game.  It's not possible.  WG made sure of that with splash mechanics.  Hopefully they will 'fix' that in the upcoming patch, but as of now...nowhere is truly safe from arty.  Especially not Ghost town center area.  Please don't take this as an attack on you, bud.  I'm just expressing my opinion on 'arty safe' positions.



tanopasman62 #4 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 21:53

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It always depends on what tanks you're driving, middle on both maps is intended for heavies, while flanks offer space for lights, meds and TDs.

 

I admit that I am guilty of not understanding how to work 8-9 line in Ghost Town so I go 1-2 line instead.



tanopasman62 #5 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 21:55

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View Postcloudwalkr, on Apr 24 2019 - 21:50, said:

Ghost town, most players don't know how to read the inner city layout and don't realize you are wide open to fire...so they pull the ol 'ostrich' tactic...they think by going into the city they will only fight things infront of them when it's just not the case.  

 

In my opinion, this is a huge reason why Ghost town is a bad map.  The middle is basically unplayable if anyone on the outsides has a clue what they are doing.  

 

I feel like all I do is complain about maps lately, but yes...again...this is another bad map put out by WG where most of the map is unplayable death traps.  Not to mention the 'sniping' positions in all 4 corners design to entice red line (corner of the map) sniping.  It is a great farming map for those who understand how to play it though.  I regularly get high numbers on that map, so on the one hand I somewhat enjoy playing it...but I can 100% see the HUGE map flaws it has.

 

@GenPanzer - Arty safe is a misnomer in this game.  It's not possible.  WG made sure of that with splash mechanics.  Hopefully they will 'fix' that in the upcoming patch, but as of now...nowhere is truly safe from arty.  Especially not Ghost town center area.  Please don't take this as an attack on you, bud.  I'm just expressing my opinion on 'arty safe' positions.

 

If you're in city and you're being shot from the sides probably means that you either overextended or your team isn't doing their job there.

 

I mean it works both ways, with a competent team you can farm the guys on the hill from the city.



ChaseR392 #6 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 22:05

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View Posttanopasman62, on Apr 24 2019 - 21:53, said:

It always depends on what tanks you're driving, middle on both maps is intended for heavies, while flanks offer space for lights, meds and TDs.

 

Agreed....

 

And this is my number 1 biggest gripe in the game... people who don't seem to have a clue about the basic uses of the various tank classes. Now I'm not expecting everybody to be unicums (I'm not... I'm positively mediocre) but I darn well know not putt around in the open with a slow heavy (or "snipe" from the back), or brawl in a paper medium, or park a light behind a TD or arty... its just common sense.

 

And this isn't meant as rant against noobs... if you are really green I understand and move on to the next battle... no I'm talking about the guys with 25k+ battles.



cloudwalkr #7 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 22:06

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View Posttanopasman62, on Apr 24 2019 - 21:55, said:

 

If you're in city and you're being shot from the sides probably means that you either overextended or your team isn't doing their job there.

 

I mean it works both ways, with a competent team you can farm the guys on the hill from the city.

 

I've never seen city win that map any of the times I've played the map.  Sure, you can shoot out of the city at the hill guys...who have bushes to hide behind and areas to run away in.  

 

The city is is wide open and you physically can not win without exiting the city.  If you're in the city protecting your cap then it's easy to spot you and kill you without being lit.  I've gone over this map in training rooms with others and would be happy to go over it with you if you would like sometime.

 

i stand by my statement that city is a lost cause and the overall the map is worse now that it was before the changes.



tanopasman62 #8 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 22:37

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View Postcloudwalkr, on Apr 24 2019 - 22:06, said:

 

I've never seen city win that map any of the times I've played the map.  Sure, you can shoot out of the city at the hill guys...who have bushes to hide behind and areas to run away in.  

 

The city is is wide open and you physically can not win without exiting the city.  If you're in the city protecting your cap then it's easy to spot you and kill you without being lit.  I've gone over this map in training rooms with others and would be happy to go over it with you if you would like sometime.

 

i stand by my statement that city is a lost cause and the overall the map is worse now that it was before the changes.

 

And still leaving it wide open is not the best idea, much like Lakeville games lost because one team lemming rushed the cap.

 

Not to mention, what's a Type 5 Heavy supposed do do on 1-2 line hill?



commander42 #9 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 22:58

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I hate Ghost Town, but I go to the outsides almost always.  Only time I don't is when im in something like in a Type.  Erlenburg I mix it up more, I go center a bit more than the flanks but it depends on tank even more.

13Jake55 #10 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 22:59

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I never go city on Ghost at the beginning. Only time I go city is latter stages.

cloudwalkr #11 Posted Apr 24 2019 - 23:26

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View Posttanopasman62, on Apr 24 2019 - 21:55, said:

View Posttanopasman62, on Apr 24 2019 - 22:37, said:

 

And still leaving it wide open is not the best idea, much like Lakeville games lost because one team lemming rushed the cap.

 

Not to mention, what's a Type 5 Heavy supposed do do on 1-2 line hill?

 

 

the thing is that you can be shot in the city as soon as you enter it, so you don't need to be extended in order to die in city.  Yes, you can shoot back from city...but you're shooting at things that 1) have bush lines to hide behind and 2) can simply back up from the ridge and relocate.  You can't do that in the city.  If you back up on the corner you're at...you're now pinned in there most likely and can't relocate.  You can not farm the guys on the outsides unless they are completely brain dead and drive down the 3 line or 8 line in the open.  

 

Not to mention that if you do win the city and try to exit it then you die from outside edges.  Then there are the 4 corner sniper points that WG thought would be a good idea to add in.  It's a bad map.  If you're in a quick medium or light tank then it can be fun, but heavies are basically screwed and td's are typically sitting in one of the red line sniping positions WG thought would be a good addition to the map.

 

The only way city works is if you have a platoon mate helping on the 1-3 line and you work together.  That's the only time I've ever seen city win and it was me on the 1, 2 line and my buddy (2500+ rated player) in the city.  We crushed the enemy team because they had no clue what to do.  So, if you can do that then city can work.

 

My opinion is that city is garbage and the map overall is bad.  Just look at all the sniping positions WG put on the red line around the entire map.  If it's not a funnel corridor map, then it's a redline sniping map that is death to anyone who typically pushes first.

 

Your thought about the type 5 just highlights why it is a horrible map even more than I already have, in my opinion.  WG created a map that if you're in that tank...you only have one place to go and once you get there you are pinned in and taking arty fire or outside red line fire all game as soon as you try to move.  That isn't fun game play in my opinion.

 

If by your lakeville example you mean that you can potentially lose Ghost town to a fast cap rush through the city...I will happily await the day for that replay to be posted because it won't happen.  You might have the occasional game where city does win the map, crazy things happen...but a straight lemming train like you might see in Lakeville valley push will not win on Ghost town.

 

Edit:  Your sig cracks me up.  RNG will never turn a player purple.  It might help you have a monster game from time to time but if you think RNG is what makes people play at a high level...you're mistaken.  It may have been a joke and I just didn't pick up on the sarcasm...so my apologies if that's the case.  If it's not and you truly think RNG is helping players become high level the I would recommend re-thinking that through.


Edited by cloudwalkr, Apr 24 2019 - 23:29.


thegreat101 #12 Posted Apr 25 2019 - 00:19

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View Postcloudwalkr, on Apr 24 2019 - 21:50, said:

Ghost town, most players don't know how to read the inner city layout and don't realize you are wide open to fire...so they pull the ol 'ostrich' tactic...they think by going into the city they will only fight things infront of them when it's just not the case.  

 

In my opinion, this is a huge reason why Ghost town is a bad map.  The middle is basically unplayable if anyone on the outsides has a clue what they are doing.  

 

I feel like all I do is complain about maps lately, but yes...again...this is another bad map put out by WG where most of the map is unplayable death traps.  Not to mention the 'sniping' positions in all 4 corners design to entice red line (corner of the map) sniping.  It is a great farming map for those who understand how to play it though.  I regularly get high numbers on that map, so on the one hand I somewhat enjoy playing it...but I can 100% see the HUGE map flaws it has.

 

@GenPanzer - Arty safe is a misnomer in this game.  It's not possible.  WG made sure of that with splash mechanics.  Hopefully they will 'fix' that in the upcoming patch, but as of now...nowhere is truly safe from arty.  Especially not Ghost town center area.  Please don't take this as an attack on you, bud.  I'm just expressing my opinion on 'arty safe' positions.

 

Agree with you, just feel Ghost town is more of a "Clan Wars or Strongholds only" map rather than Random battle

Lucid_Nonsense_1 #13 Posted Apr 25 2019 - 00:22

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I had a game yesterday at tier VI (in Ehrlenburg) when the WHOLE team went into town except for the arty and couple TDs who set up on the other side of the river (east) from our north base. When I pointed out that I was the only tier V going to the West flank / island corner, and that it was unlikely I will hold it by myself; I was told by one person to "STFU and watch some of videos on how to play" and, by another player that "rule 1 is that tanks need to stay together," (this is my family friendly paraphrasing tbh.) I was bit dumb founded, who the hell is teaching people that they should all go in a big fur ball tripping over each other?!  You can't even attack more than two abreast there. They got killed one at a time, then my wolverine got swarmed by a platoon of t67s, and red finished off the reminder from the castle - while chat was full of salt about being shot by invisible tanks and people cheating. Only one person, on our team had less than 1k games; one had over 11k (although they were in the arty, so fair play.)

This kind of poop, and the north team redlining, seems to be happening a lot more on that map lately.


Edited by Lucid_Nonsense_1, Apr 25 2019 - 00:53.


tanopasman62 #14 Posted Apr 25 2019 - 00:29

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View Postcloudwalkr, on Apr 24 2019 - 23:26, said:

 

the thing is that you can be shot in the city as soon as you enter it, so you don't need to be extended in order to die in city.  Yes, you can shoot back from city...but you're shooting at things that 1) have bush lines to hide behind and 2) can simply back up from the ridge and relocate.  You can't do that in the city.  If you back up on the corner you're at...you're now pinned in there most likely and can't relocate.  You can not farm the guys on the outsides unless they are completely brain dead and drive down the 3 line or 8 line in the open.  

 

Not to mention that if you do win the city and try to exit it then you die from outside edges.  Then there are the 4 corner sniper points that WG thought would be a good idea to add in.  It's a bad map.  If you're in a quick medium or light tank then it can be fun, but heavies are basically screwed and td's are typically sitting in one of the red line sniping positions WG thought would be a good addition to the map.

 

The only way city works is if you have a platoon mate helping on the 1-3 line and you work together.  That's the only time I've ever seen city win and it was me on the 1, 2 line and my buddy (2500+ rated player) in the city.  We crushed the enemy team because they had no clue what to do.  So, if you can do that then city can work.

 

My opinion is that city is garbage and the map overall is bad.  Just look at all the sniping positions WG put on the red line around the entire map.  If it's not a funnel corridor map, then it's a redline sniping map that is death to anyone who typically pushes first.

 

Your thought about the type 5 just highlights why it is a horrible map even more than I already have, in my opinion.  WG created a map that if you're in that tank...you only have one place to go and once you get there you are pinned in and taking arty fire or outside red line fire all game as soon as you try to move.  That isn't fun game play in my opinion.

 

If by your lakeville example you mean that you can potentially lose Ghost town to a fast cap rush through the city...I will happily await the day for that replay to be posted because it won't happen.  You might have the occasional game where city does win the map, crazy things happen...but a straight lemming train like you might see in Lakeville valley push will not win on Ghost town.

 

Edit:  Your sig cracks me up.  RNG will never turn a player purple.  It might help you have a monster game from time to time but if you think RNG is what makes people play at a high level...you're mistaken.  It may have been a joke and I just didn't pick up on the sarcasm...so my apologies if that's the case.  If it's not and you truly think RNG is helping players become high level the I would recommend re-thinking that through.

 

 

The funny thing about pubs is that the braindead players that you can farm from the city show up rather often, so you can go there with your heavy and fight someone and see how it turns out, so our hypothethical Type 5 is less screwed than in Prokhorovka with three arties and nobody covering the hill (Or the middle if you go hill). We know that when WG releases an actually enjoyable map it's because they made a mistake (Really, who thought Studzcrapski and Minsk were good ideas?), I am sure most of us can make a shorter list naming the maps we do find enjoyable instead of those we find bad.

 

My signature is mostly a joke from a dead game's forum, but it also highlights how it can let you hit and high roll every single snapshot with a .40+ gun, or completely ruin your game making your high accuracy/high pen gun miss/bounce every single shot you take on a whim. Sure it doesn't happen every game, which won't mitigate the rejoyce or frustration when these games DO happen.



redjkent #15 Posted Apr 25 2019 - 02:12

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View PostBlackFive, on Apr 24 2019 - 20:25, said:

Ehrlenburg and Ghost Town.

Two maps I really enjoy - mostly because most players seem to fail to understand flank control.  They're 'easy to farm' maps.

.

But why do players not understand that giving up control of both flanks is an absolutely stupid proposition?  Too often, on both Ehrlenburg and Ghost Town, I see players blithely head straight into the urban areas in the center of the maps... only to be hammered by tanks on the flanks.  Why?  What kind of cookies are they serving in town?

.

Ghost town literally cannot be won without control of at least one flank.  But so many teams try.  Ehrlenburg isn't quite as bad - people at least try for the Castle (I prefer the hills on the other side myself) - but still; teams doddle into the buildings and then... stop.  It's absurd.  Put 1/3 of the team on a flank - any flank... and you can all move up.  Drive into town without flank control?  Buh bye.

.

Don't tell me it's arty fear.  I've taken all kinds of tanks into the hills and made them work (maybe not blind bat tanks) ... but why?

.

Someone explain this to me, please

if im in a heavie or slow armored tank i am not going the flanks because mediums and lights will play peekabo and kill you, if your in a slow tank getting caught trying to go up a hill or between cover is a death sentence



jsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1 #16 Posted Apr 25 2019 - 08:31

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because both maps are absolute trash? i dont know.. that might be it... 

cloudwalkr #17 Posted Apr 25 2019 - 08:38

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View Posttanopasman62, on Apr 25 2019 - 00:29, said:

 

 

The funny thing about pubs is that the braindead players that you can farm from the city show up rather often, so you can go there with your heavy and fight someone and see how it turns out, so our hypothethical Type 5 is less screwed than in Prokhorovka with three arties and nobody covering the hill (Or the middle if you go hill). We know that when WG releases an actually enjoyable map it's because they made a mistake (Really, who thought Studzcrapski and Minsk were good ideas?), I am sure most of us can make a shorter list naming the maps we do find enjoyable instead of those we find bad.

 

My signature is mostly a joke from a dead game's forum, but it also highlights how it can let you hit and high roll every single snapshot with a .40+ gun, or completely ruin your game making your high accuracy/high pen gun miss/bounce every single shot you take on a whim. Sure it doesn't happen every game, which won't mitigate the rejoyce or frustration when these games DO happen.

 

I've tried city before and didn't enjoy it.  I was basically pinned in at the spot I went to due to arty focus and outside focus.  I couldn't push and I couldn't peek so it was basically a sitting game waiting on either my team to win or lose.  I just don't enjoy going city on that map.  I do play a lot of mediums and lights so city naturally wouldn't fit for them so a really good heavy player might see things in there that I missed.

 

I agree about studinzki and Minsk.  They both are complete garbage.  Minsk - what a great idea to split the map in half with a river and force anyone who wants to cross down choke points.  It's also pretty small.

Studinski - VERY small.  I think it could be better if it were made much bigger and some things added to it to help open up the map so you aren't forced to play peekaboo in north or peekaboo in south.  The simple fact you can camp your own base and farm dmg without ever moving highlights, to me, that WG don't have a clue when creating a map for higher tier game play.  That map might be fun for tier 1-6 but after that idk...

 



tanopasman62 #18 Posted Apr 25 2019 - 09:43

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View Postcloudwalkr, on Apr 25 2019 - 08:38, said:

 

I've tried city before and didn't enjoy it.  I was basically pinned in at the spot I went to due to arty focus and outside focus.  I couldn't push and I couldn't peek so it was basically a sitting game waiting on either my team to win or lose.  I just don't enjoy going city on that map.  I do play a lot of mediums and lights so city naturally wouldn't fit for them so a really good heavy player might see things in there that I missed.

 

I agree about studinzki and Minsk.  They both are complete garbage.  Minsk - what a great idea to split the map in half with a river and force anyone who wants to cross down choke points.  It's also pretty small.

Studinski - VERY small.  I think it could be better if it were made much bigger and some things added to it to help open up the map so you aren't forced to play peekaboo in north or peekaboo in south.  The simple fact you can camp your own base and farm dmg without ever moving highlights, to me, that WG don't have a clue when creating a map for higher tier game play.  That map might be fun for tier 1-6 but after that idk...

 

 

 

My personal problem with both is that heavy areas are way too static, especially at the higher tiers with all those impenetrable turrets of doom, if you try to flank in either you get ****** by TDs and meds. Studzcrapski in particular is the worse, and both sides end up glaring at each other until one side wins the South town and snipes them to death. At tier 5/6 at least heavies can pen each other so it's a bit less crappy.

 

Now that Types are getting nerfed to the ground the map will probably be more static, although E 100/60TP/JPz E 100 firing HE or the old  good death star might help to break the stalemate. Minsk, as is, allows for some pushing at least.

 

In my opinion Stalingrad was the best map for heavies, and you could actually flank stuff there.



QuicksilverJPR #19 Posted Apr 25 2019 - 17:54

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View PostBlackFive, on Apr 24 2019 - 15:25, said:

Ehrlenburg and Ghost Town.

Two maps I really enjoy - mostly because most players seem to fail to understand flank control.  They're 'easy to farm' maps.

.

But why do players not understand that giving up control of both flanks is an absolutely stupid proposition?  Too often, on both Ehrlenburg and Ghost Town, I see players blithely head straight into the urban areas in the center of the maps... only to be hammered by tanks on the flanks.  Why?  What kind of cookies are they serving in town?

.

Ghost town literally cannot be won without control of at least one flank.  But so many teams try.  Ehrlenburg isn't quite as bad - people at least try for the Castle (I prefer the hills on the other side myself) - but still; teams doddle into the buildings and then... stop.  It's absurd.  Put 1/3 of the team on a flank - any flank... and you can all move up.  Drive into town without flank control?  Buh bye.

.

Don't tell me it's arty fear.  I've taken all kinds of tanks into the hills and made them work (maybe not blind bat tanks) ... but why?

.

Someone explain this to me, please

 

Those are the same types of people that go beach on Overlord or valley in Lakeville...

Tao_Te_Tomato #20 Posted Apr 25 2019 - 18:30

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View PostQuicksilverJPR, on Apr 25 2019 - 17:54, said:

 

Those are the same types of people that go beach on Overlord or valley in Lakeville...

 

You mean the idiots like the two heavies and two mediums that wiped my medium off the beach yesterday, then proceeded up the channels to surprise <redacted, related to anal copulation> the rest of Team Green because the other 14 players were True Believers in the Church Of No Beach and were attending services in their respective top areas? 

 

Those kind of idiots? 

 

"Winning" idiots?


Edited by Tao_Te_Tomato, Apr 25 2019 - 18:31.






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