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What does WG think pairing 40% win rate players with 50%+ is a good idea?


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WeSayNotToday #21 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 13:00

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View PostXxXxMaximusxXxX, on Apr 26 2019 - 05:16, said:

.... "Random matchmaking" should not include placing a team of all 40% winrate vs 6 unicums, its miserable for the lower win rate players and will generate anger and frustration for them (specially if its 10-20 losses in a row).

 

WG, you've probably lost a lot of players thanks to your matchmaker.

 

Exaggeration aside, why do you think a random MM would not or should not produce such a team?  The only non-random elements are of the tank type, tier, and number sort.  Player skill is not considered.

 

No one has really shown MM results that could not be explained by "random."  One of the merits of a "random" matchmaker is that the word random can cover a multitude of sins....

 

Yes, i think they have lost a lot of players due to the matchmaker.  The matchmaker is terrible for new players, and can yield awful experiences with nasty streaks, all under the umbrella of "random."

 

View PostHellsfog, on Apr 26 2019 - 05:21, said:

 What you describe right there is so unbelievably rare, it sucks the credibility right out of your post.  Relying on win rate as a basis for skilled based MM inevitably pushes everyone towards a 50% win rate.  Don't believe me, try using the search function see just how often this half-baked idea has been discredited. 

 

Exaggeration does not help, you are correct, especially hyperbolic...

 

BTW, an idea discredited on a forum is not necessarily a bad idea at all.  Discrediting is not a demanding process, and the audience and participants in such a discussion are not necessarily representative of the game's population, AND not representative at all of dissatisfied players who have left due to the MM.

 

 

View PostPuddleSplasher, on Apr 26 2019 - 12:24, said:

 

Yet I beg to differ!!!

 

Often the team that you would expect to win using the XVM stats of which you talk usually get ROFLstomped.

 

Often?  Meaningless in a game with thousands of matches per hour.

Usually?  Aah, this is more percentage based, and, no, not at all. 

Occasionally?   Why, yes.



NeatoMan #22 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 13:17

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I dont see why WG couldn't have a league type system. Red players simply have an incompatible playstyle with most blurple players. They just don't belong on the same playing field, just like you don't put Joe couch potato on the same field with pro athletes.  It's not fun for either 

Too bad the NA server doesn't have the population to handle it

VooDooKobra #23 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 13:32

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View Postjsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1, on Apr 26 2019 - 01:08, said:

 

they dont care actually

 

they dont care? or they dont blindly do what you want so you just say they dont care?

 

View PostNeatoMan, on Apr 26 2019 - 05:17, said:

I dont see why WG couldn't have a league type system. Red players simply have an incompatible playstyle with most blurple players. They just don't belong on the same playing field, just like you don't put Joe couch potato on the same field with pro athletes.  It's not fun for either 

Too bad the NA server doesn't have the population to handle it

 

the main reason i dont like this kind of system is that i like to play with better players, i even platoon with them when i can.  i watch what they do, where they go in the hopes of improving outside of staying in a training room all the time.  What a tiered system like this and in LOL does is it keeps me from doing that.  Training platoons would then become the new failtoons.

 

i do not get why people assume because a system is like that in other games it is a guarantee that it would work here



madogthefirst #24 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 13:57

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View PostWhineMaker, on Apr 25 2019 - 20:37, said:

Here's a suggestion: Uninstall XVM and pretend everyone is terrible. With this method, you'll never be disappointed ever again... :P

Yes he will, he'll assume the reds are all terribads rush ahead and lose his [edited] to em.



Pipinghot #25 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 14:38

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View PostXxXxMaximusxXxX, on Apr 25 2019 - 23:16, said:

It generates toxicity and frustration amongst players who want to do well in the game.

They think it's a good idea because they come from the eastern bloc, where gaming philosophy is much more dog-eat-dog. I'm not suggesting that you should like that philosophy, but you at least have to understand it if you want to understand WoT. The eastern school of gaming basically says, "If you don't like being beaten, get better so you can beat them." It is a much more brutal school of thought on gaming than we're used to in the West, especially in the NA gaming market, but that doesn't mean it's wrong, it just means it's different from what you're used to.

 

NA has never been their biggest market, so what NA gaming culture is not going to rule their decisions. You have to decide whether you want to keep playing the game, knowing that it's more brutal than most games, or whether you're not up to that level of competition. WG has a simple philosophy - if you want to win more, get better.

View PostXxXxMaximusxXxX, on Apr 25 2019 - 23:16, said:

WG, you've probably lost a lot of players thanks to your matchmaker.

That's true.. in NA, and somewhat also true in EU. But that does not mean it's true in RU or China, where the gaming culture is different. The MM has not caused a problem in their biggest markets.

Pipinghot #26 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 14:40

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View PostXxXxMaximusxXxX, on Apr 25 2019 - 23:28, said:

View PostHellsfog, on Apr 26 2019 - 05:21, said:

 What you describe right there is so unbelievably rare, it sucks the credibility right out of your post.  Relying on win rate as a basis for skilled based MM inevitably pushes everyone towards a 50% win rate.  Don't believe me, try using the search function see just how often this half-baked idea has been discredited. 

That's just 1 example dude, more often than not you will see super swingy games where 1 team massacres the other. Using XVM you will see that the team with most "Green,Blue,Purple" players destroy the team without. I'm going to start screenshooting the results of every battle, I will show you how often the team with better players obviously wins.

It's an example that has never happened. There has never been "a team of all 40% winrate vs 6 unicums", i guarantee it. If you want people to take you seriously you need to choose examples that can actually happen. While it's true that there are plenty of mismatches in this game, your specific "just one example" is purely imaginary and not real.



Hellsfog #27 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 15:14

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View PostXxXxMaximusxXxX, on Apr 25 2019 - 23:28, said:

 

That's just 1 example dude, more often than not you will see super swingy games where 1 team massacres the other. Using XVM you will see that the team with most "Green,Blue,Purple" players destroy the team without. I'm going to start screenshooting the results of every battle, I will show you how often the team with better players obviously wins.

 

Dude, it's not an example. It's called fiction and this thread is you weeping because you lost a game, dude.  

Pipinghot #28 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 15:23

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View PostRawrlynn, on Apr 26 2019 - 01:07, said:

actually I'd be happy with a team balance instead of  a skill based system.

In the end, that's essentially the same thing as skill based matchmaking, even though seems different at first. Balancing the skills between the teams would have the same long term affect as SBMM, which would be to push every players's win rate even closer to the average than they already are. You would have to kiss that 53% Win Rate goodbye, and say hello to a <50% WR, and yet you would not be compensated for the XP and credits you would lose from the victories that would be taken away from you.

 

The basic fact that there are 15 people per team already makes it hard to be above average, and extremely hard to be noticeably above average. If they start balancing the teams then nearly every player in the game would have an average win rate, regardless of skill. The game already gives credits and XP to bad players, and takes XP & credits away from good players, by having the "team pool" in every battle that gets distributed evenly to all players regardless of their contribution. If WG were to start using team balancing then either this subsidizing and penalizing would get even worse, or they would have to completely rework the rewards system.

View PostRawrlynn, on Apr 26 2019 - 01:07, said:

so instead of stacking  most of the higher skill players on one team

Let's keep in perspective that already happens a lot less than people talk about it happening. People love to make examples of teams that have a strong imbalance, but the truth is that the great majority of games already fall into the middle range of being about evenly balanced. People love to talk about stacking, but it's just not that common.

View PostRawrlynn, on Apr 26 2019 - 01:07, said:

so the matches are more capable of being  good fun matches and not blow outs.

That wouldn't happen. Blowouts are not caused by the MM, they are not caused by team balance, they are caused by the fact that this is a single death per battle game. Team balancing would not reduce blowouts by any amount that players could ever notice. Technically there would be small reduction, but you'd need to do data analysis to see the difference. The daily feeling of how players experience the game wouldn't change, blowouts would still feel just as common because this is a single-death game.



SargeanTravis #29 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 15:25

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Because random battle MM doesn't care if you're unicum or not

toesave #30 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 15:30

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why is it so many do not understand the definition of random.  

 

while a break in win rate may be useful to get players more involved and more motivated to play 100%.  it can't and won't happen.   

 

1st not enough players left to do that..  if they separate above 50% to below your que times might be as much as 5 minutes,

 

2nd the elite players will go nuts..  facing stiff competition every battle will only force them to quit....  

 

the only way to fix the issue is to do away with win rate and just go by damage done.  no one to blame but yourself then....



FedericoWR #31 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 15:30

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i just read League of Legend and it was a big NO

GeoMonster #32 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 15:50

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View PostHellsfog, on Apr 25 2019 - 22:21, said:

 What you describe right there is so unbelievably rare, it sucks the credibility right out of your post.  Relying on win rate as a basis for skilled based MM inevitably pushes everyone towards a 50% win rate.  Don't believe me, try using the search function see just how often this half-baked idea has been discredited. 

 

You think?  I don't advocate skill based MM, but I do advocate skill BALANCED matchmaking (balance on PR).  WAY too many unbalanced teams to keep the game enjoyable.  There is nothing wrong with wanting a competitive battle, though winning those low percentage battles is exciting too those few times it happens.  People say that XVM makes people give up before the battle starts ... regardless of what people say prior to the battle starting I don't often see people giving up early on.  Rather, I sometimes see the opposing team who are heavy favorites get big heads and think they are invincible and can blindly charge into the enemy and automatically win.  Even had one of those today ... 29 percent chance to win and we easily won.  Blue and Green players played with reckless abandon.  The win was satisfying. 

GeoMonster #33 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 15:51

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View PostWhineMaker, on Apr 25 2019 - 22:37, said:

Here's a suggestion: Uninstall XVM and pretend everyone is terrible. With this method, you'll never be disappointed ever again... :P

 

How is that going to stop the blow-outs?  The BLOW-OUTS cause the disappointment!    DUHHHH.

gingerted91 #34 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 15:58

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View PostHardball1911, on Apr 26 2019 - 09:07, said:

There used to be a day in online gaming where people who understood how to win at a particular game took the time to teach and help those who needed it.

 

Gonna stop you right there.  True offers of assistance still exist.

Unfortunately, there is no desire for anyone to learn the game anymore (or change their bad habits) and that is the problem here mate.  Between: hacks, cheats, rigged MM, rng, stat padders, XVM, blowouts, and SBMM, etc they have a ready set of excuses to not own their play and put absolutely no effort into learning; and substantial effort into tin foil hat "theories" and "solutions" to fix the game that include all an sundry OTHER than learning the game.

There are teachers but no students...

Case in point... (was abused in game chat for having the last few feet of the gun barrel sticking out of a bush)
 

gingerted91 (2:38:27 PM) fyi mate, the barrel is not a visibility checkpoint...

gingerted91 (2:38:31 PM) http://wiki.wargamin...checkpoints.png

Xxxxxxx (2:47:28 PM) Sorry..,. but yes it is... it the barrel is sticking out of a bush... then ur tank is less than 5 m behind the bush

gingerted91 (2:48:46 PM) that was the point i needed to see though the bush to have a chance to out spot them...

gingerted91 (2:49:27 PM) give up on your assumptions mate and learn the mechanics to improve

gingerted91 (2:49:40 PM) just trying to help you out..

gingerted91 (2:49:51 PM) good luck out there

Xxxxxxx (2:55:31 PM) ok... I'll play my way... u play urs

gingerted91 (2:59:42 PM) Sure mate. Why take advice from someone with double your PR, who wins more than 50% of the time...

gingerted91 (3:00:48 PM) not that i write wot articles or teach/train my clanmates or anything

gingerted91 (3:01:08 PM) good luck frank!

Xxxxxxx (3:03:57 PM) bacvk at ya

 

Edited by gingerted91, Apr 26 2019 - 16:12.


bevust #35 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 16:01

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op you will get a lot of flack here from the keyboard commandos

wg has created a toxic game for new players or under 50 percent

wg don't give a chit.... just the dackheads on here that cry cause they want fodder to raise their score

screw WG

QUOTE

Sorry to hear that you are not having the best experience playing World of Tanks.

While we understand how frustrating it is to lose several battles in a row, please note that Wargaming does not have any reason nor anything to gain from negatively influencing the battles of any player, much less yours. 

The matchmaker will build teams based only on the type and tier of the tanks waiting in the queue. It does not take into account a player's skill and is simply not smart enough to stack all the good players in one team. If you find yourself being outplayed by the enemy team, this would be due to the superior skills and tactics that they've employed in the battle and not because you were picked out of tens of thousands of players to lose the match. 

Nonetheless, we appreciate your honest feedback about the matchmaker and we'll be happy to submit it to our dev team. In the meantime, you can keep your eyes peeled for any new developments: http://worldoftanks.com/en/news

Should you have further inquiries, please do not hesitate to contact us again. Good luck, have fun & happy tanking!
 



bevust #36 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 16:03

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QUOTE

World of Tanks puts players in relatively even situations based on the type of tank being used, not player skill. Tactics used in armored combat and recreated by players in the game are the best way to gain an advantage, but the matchmaker cannot control player tactics. We strongly encourage our players to learn these aspects of tanking.

We can absolutely say that we sympathize, that we have felt pains from being put it tough matches ourselves, and that we try to look at tough matches as an opportunity to learn and study weaknesses on those other tanks. We should NOT say they have been put it a situation that is impossible to win.

Finally, I also would like to mention that if the matchmaking lately has had such a profound impact on your enjoyment of the game, you're welcome to take a break for a while. It may seem counter-intuitive for a free-to-play game company to tell you to stop playing, but if I'm being perfectly honest there's no shame in simply taking a breather.

We want our games to be fun, first and foremost. When a player is having fun, that means they're most likely happy. We want to make our players happy. Sometimes loss after loss has more of an impact on your happiness than simply taking a day or two to "chill out" so to speak and revisit the game once you're refreshed and ready to play again. I've done this before and can personally attest to the fact that it helps quite a bit.



Tao_Te_Tomato #37 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 16:16

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View PostWhineMaker, on Apr 26 2019 - 05:37, said:

Here's a suggestion: Uninstall XVM and pretend everyone is terrible. With this method, you'll never be disappointed ever again... :P

 

What do you mean "pretend?"  :amazed:

 

I worry when I'm on a team with a blue, three greens, mostly yellows, and three orange ... and the other side has a blue and a couple of yellows.  In my feelz it means that my blue and green guys have been cursed by RNGeezus for a curbstomping* - and those feelz turn out to be realz just often enough for me to keep on believing it.  :(

 

 

 

*and not just because I'm on the team, though that doesn't help much, I'm sure.  :hiding:



spud_tuber #38 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 16:29

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View Postgingerted91, on Apr 26 2019 - 08:58, said:

 

Gonna stop you right there.  True offers of assistance still exist.

Unfortunately, there is no desire for anyone to learn the game anymore (or change their bad habits) and that is the problem here mate.  Between: hacks, cheats, rigged MM, rng, stat padders, XVM, blowouts, and SBMM, etc they have a ready set of excuses to not own their play and put absolutely no effort into learning; and substantial effort into tin foil hat "theories" and "solutions" to fix the game that include all an sundry OTHER than learning the game.

There are teachers but no students...

Case in point... (was abused in game chat for having the last few feet of the gun barrel sticking out of a bush)
 

gingerted91 (2:38:27 PM) fyi mate, the barrel is not a visibility checkpoint...

gingerted91 (2:38:31 PM) http://wiki.wargamin...checkpoints.png

Xxxxxxx (2:47:28 PM) Sorry..,. but yes it is... it the barrel is sticking out of a bush... then ur tank is less than 5 m behind the bush

gingerted91 (2:48:46 PM) that was the point i needed to see though the bush to have a chance to out spot them...

gingerted91 (2:49:27 PM) give up on your assumptions mate and learn the mechanics to improve

gingerted91 (2:49:40 PM) just trying to help you out..

gingerted91 (2:49:51 PM) good luck out there

Xxxxxxx (2:55:31 PM) ok... I'll play my way... u play urs

gingerted91 (2:59:42 PM) Sure mate. Why take advice from someone with double your PR, who wins more than 50% of the time...

gingerted91 (3:00:48 PM) not that i write wot articles or teach/train my clanmates or anything

gingerted91 (3:01:08 PM) good luck frank!

Xxxxxxx (3:03:57 PM) bacvk at ya

 

I think perhaps there's truth in both views.  

There are people willing to learn, especially if approached properly. 

There are people willing to teach, especially if approached properly.

The issue seems to be getting these two groups properly introduced, especially past all those elitists who only want to ridicule and all those play5fun types who go immediately to rigged/cheating/etc as to why they do poorly.  As for these last two groups, well, one hopes they don't make up the majority of human kind. 



Jryder #39 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 16:48

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if 40% players play nothing but 40% players, eventually some of them will become 50% players.

 

However, since the new 50% players got that way by playing nothing but 40% players, when they start playing nothing but 50% players they WILL play like 40% players anyway.

 

50% achieved by playing 40%=average against weak players=Faux 50%

50% achieved by playing the entire player base=legit 50%.

 

Players don't get better by playing weaker players, they get better playing stronger players and learning from them.



NeatoMan #40 Posted Apr 26 2019 - 16:49

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View PostVooDooKobra, on Apr 26 2019 - 07:32, said:

the main reason i dont like this kind of system is that i like to play with better players, i even platoon with them when i can.  i watch what they do, where they go in the hopes of improving outside of staying in a training room all the time.  What a tiered system like this and in LOL does is it keeps me from doing that. 

There is always enough skill disparity within leagues to allow for lesser players to learn from better players, especially if they kept the range broad, and/or gradually introduce improving players to higher leagues.  I never bought into the bullcrap mantra that basking in the presence of blurple players is the only way to get tomatoes to learn.  "mmm durrr...  They need a good spanking or else they won't learn anything"...   Once they reach average ability, then they can learn from experts.

 

Block Quote

Training platoons would then become the new failtoons.

 If blurple players want to do that it's on them...  or reroll with a training account, and play all those crappy tanks that they normally stay away from... it's training after all, so it's not like they need maxxed out anything to show them the ropes.  Or like WGNA/sheriff accounts, let people sign up for training accounts that have less than OP tanks/equipment/crews set up for that purpose.

 

Too bad it's probably too late to do anything like that on the NA server.


Edited by NeatoMan, Apr 26 2019 - 17:39.





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