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US of A T8 meds are bad. Pretty bad.


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F1O1 #1 Posted May 14 2019 - 01:33

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l am grinding the pershing on frontlines, and l only have the M3 90mm gun from T20. Feels bad man. But lucky for me, many of my enemies encountered are tanks like lorraine, progetto, skorpion G, SU130PM - to which 160mm pen is fine. The top T15E 90mm gun, will make it so l don't need APCR for even silly things, like T-44, LT432, Panther ll, Pantera....tanks that yes, 160mm pen will have trouble with, nevermind heavy tanks. But the problem is rate of fire, no increase. And the bigger problem, the bigger picture, US meds shoot way too slow. Not up-to-speed with the M48A and M46 Patton buffs.

 

T95E2 is the fastest firing US med, at mediocre 8rds/min.....T-69, Super pershing, T25 pilot, M46KR, M26 pershing fire in between 7.27-7.69.....Now that is pathetic, let me tell you. When you have tanks like AMX CDC, Panther 88, FCM50T, VTU, 59-patton, lndien Pz, STAs all with better guns 200 pen or over, firing faster @ 8 rds/min or more. And the tanks l just named, aren't even good, but still maintain considerable DPM advantage over US ones, with better guns too? Really. lt is not gun depression advantage, no that is not it. Because centurion tanks, M4 Rev, Alt 5, Lansen, lndien Pz all have gun depression too, and still fire faster with dramatically better guns. lt is not view range, since Centurions get 400m too, with way better armament. 

 

The T32 heavy tank only has 7.89rds/min with the stock 90mm gun. Pathetic. The same rate of fire as M6 heavy tier 6. But they release a tank like Patriot, with 8.33 rds/min? Really? Comrades don't like Yankees, who would have thought. T32, M26, M46KR, super persh, T69 all need rate of fire increase, to at least 8rds/min

 

 

 



madogthefirst #2 Posted May 14 2019 - 02:21

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I'll sum up your problem: get good.

tanopasman62 #3 Posted May 14 2019 - 02:46

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View Postmadogthefirst, on May 14 2019 - 02:21, said:

I'll sum up your problem: get good.

 

x2

 

Also I'd like to know where I can get an M4A1 rev that fires 8 rounds per minute.



ChaseR392 #4 Posted May 14 2019 - 03:51

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American mediums for the most part aren't brawlers... plain and simple. The have decent mobility, decent guns, are good at peaking ridges with good gun depression, have decent turrets that can go hull down in a pinch. Jack of all trades master of none... simple as that.

 

You can't judge a high tier tech tree tank by its "stock" configuration... they all pretty much suck stock.... just like all the other tiers below them.

 

Most of the tanks you have listed exaggerate one aspect of the tanker trinity (firepower, mobility and armor) and the expense of the other two.

 

I won't tell you to "git gud" because I don't do that well in American meds either... what I will say is maybe you haven't found a medium that fits your playstyle.



Firemoth #5 Posted May 14 2019 - 03:53

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power creep has not been kind to the pershing. i wish it would just be a bit faster, or have some actual armour on its damn turret so it can hulldown properly. its unbelievable that the turret cheeks are a hilariously bad 130-170mm on a tank that is supposed to be able to hull down.

 

the crazy thing is that the centurion do everything the pershing can, with better turret armour, DPM, and penetration while having similar mobility


Edited by Firemoth, May 14 2019 - 04:01.


RIA1911 #6 Posted May 14 2019 - 03:59

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One thing with US meds, they have good/great view range. Enhance this if you can, you can pick up a lot of XP with this. Also run with others and support. And like others have said ridges, peek a boo.

3nr0n #7 Posted May 14 2019 - 12:25

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The T69 equipped with optics and Commander trained with situational awareness has a better view range than most T8 lights.  It's a spotter/finisher, spot the targets get em wounded and the with the clip go in and finish them off.  Long clip reload so run with others to cover your reload.

F1O1 #8 Posted May 14 2019 - 21:48

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View Posttanopasman62, on May 14 2019 - 01:46, said:

 

x2

 

Also I'd like to know where I can get an M4A1 rev that fires 8 rounds per minute.

 

You do know right,  that not only does M4 Rev have more alpha damage than M26, T-69, M46KR, T25 pilot, Super pershing  -  it also has more DPM, the same basic tier 10 view range of 390m, and also  -10 gun depression.  And aside from super pershings constant buffs, it has 200 pen which the others don't.  American meds suck, and weren't upgraded and buffed like tier 9  &  10 M46 and M48A patton.

 



F1O1 #9 Posted May 14 2019 - 21:56

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View PostRIA1911, on May 14 2019 - 02:59, said:

One thing with US meds, they have good/great view range. Enhance this if you can, you can pick up a lot of XP with this. Also run with others and support. And like others have said ridges, peek a boo.

 

M4 Rev, Centurions, 59-patton, AMXCDC, Alt 5, Progetto, STA1, panther ll, panther 88 have good view range too.  All 390 or 400m. Can't ask for better than that tier 8.  

Peeking for 240 damage is worthless. 90mm  240 alpha tanks are not Alt 5 or Rev, to smack for hundreds of dmg more. You need DPM. And if you don't have DPM, at least have an autoloader and great pen like progetto or pantera, or have excellent pen / accuracy like L100 88 panther ll and 20pdr FV4202

 



QuicksilverJPR #10 Posted May 16 2019 - 21:28

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View PostF1O1, on May 13 2019 - 19:33, said:

l am grinding the pershing on frontlines, and l only have the M3 90mm gun from T20. Feels bad man. But lucky for me, many of my enemies encountered are tanks like lorraine, progetto, skorpion G, SU130PM - to which 160mm pen is fine. The top T15E 90mm gun, will make it so l don't need APCR for even silly things, like T-44, LT432, Panther ll, Pantera....tanks that yes, 160mm pen will have trouble with, nevermind heavy tanks. But the problem is rate of fire, no increase. And the bigger problem, the bigger picture, US meds shoot way too slow. Not up-to-speed with the M48A and M46 Patton buffs.

 

T95E2 is the fastest firing US med, at mediocre 8rds/min.....T-69, Super pershing, T25 pilot, M46KR, M26 pershing fire in between 7.27-7.69.....Now that is pathetic, let me tell you. When you have tanks like AMX CDC, Panther 88, FCM50T, VTU, 59-patton, lndien Pz, STAs all with better guns 200 pen or over, firing faster @ 8 rds/min or more. And the tanks l just named, aren't even good, but still maintain considerable DPM advantage over US ones, with better guns too? Really. lt is not gun depression advantage, no that is not it. Because centurion tanks, M4 Rev, Alt 5, Lansen, lndien Pz all have gun depression too, and still fire faster with dramatically better guns. lt is not view range, since Centurions get 400m too, with way better armament. 

 

The T32 heavy tank only has 7.89rds/min with the stock 90mm gun. Pathetic. The same rate of fire as M6 heavy tier 6. But they release a tank like Patriot, with 8.33 rds/min? Really? Comrades don't like Yankees, who would have thought. T32, M26, M46KR, super persh, T69 all need rate of fire increase, to at least 8rds/min

 

 

 

 

 

Going to have to disagree with you on that one.  Use it as it was meant to be, and you'll do just fine with it...



ZePaladin #11 Posted May 17 2019 - 04:34

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View PostFiremoth, on May 13 2019 - 21:53, said:

power creep has not been kind to the pershing. i wish it would just be a bit faster, or have some actual armour on its damn turret so it can hulldown properly. its unbelievable that the turret cheeks are a hilariously bad 130-170mm on a tank that is supposed to be able to hull down.

 

the crazy thing is that the centurion do everything the pershing can, with better turret armour, DPM, and penetration while having similar mobility

 

^ This is more or less hitting the nail right on the head. 

Does this mean that you can't do well in the Persh? Absolutely not. But, what it does mean is that you're playing a tank with ~2013 stats against newer and better tanks, so you'll have to get creative. Unfortunately, I never really figured the Persh out myself. However, what I can say to you is play as if you don't have any armor whatsoever. Don't count on your armor all that much, because it isn't all that much anyway. If you play cautiously, wait out the fire from other tanks and take pokes when you're safe, you'll find your games more enjoyable. Why so? Because most people don't see the Persh as a threat. And rightfully so. By itself, it doesn't boast large alpha or monster dpm, but if you're supporting other tanks instead, you will find a better win rate and better damage profile. That is because the Persh can help turn the tide as a support. It's accurate enough with good pen to hit enemies hard and reliably, so just wait for your chance! Play more like a support than a brawler or true med.



F1O1 #12 Posted May 17 2019 - 08:30

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View PostChaseR392, on May 14 2019 - 02:51, said:

 

Most of the tanks you have listed exaggerate one aspect of the tanker trinity (firepower, mobility and armor) and the expense of the other two.

 

 

The trinity triangle applies. l know it quite well. USA med tanks at tier 8, don't do much of anything well. lf l wanted 390m view range, strong turret, gun depression tank with average mobility, l would not use T25 pilot, M26 pershing, M46KR over something like Centurion l / FV4202 / Victoria / RAAC, vastly superior tanks with actual threatening guns. Heck, l would take indien panzer over the American tanks, as the mobility is pretty much the same, and although less turret armour and view range, vastly improves firepower and a smaller target. STA med tanks, M4 Rev also, at they can hulldown as small targets and actually have threatening armament. The american medium tanks have absolutely no identity, and are completely stale. Even the autoloader T69, with its 4 year old stat balancing, is no where near as capable as tanks like progetto, pantera, Lorraine, Somua, Etc. 

 

View PostQuicksilverJPR, on May 16 2019 - 20:28, said:

 

 

Going to have to disagree with you on that one.  Use it as it was meant to be, and you'll do just fine with it...

 

What does this mean, exactly? 1450 avg dmg. l am looking for 2,000 damage, you can't use these tanks for anything, if they fire half a shot slower than most other tier 8 meds. That is 120 damage a minute you are pissing away.

 

 

 

 

 



ChaseR392 #13 Posted May 18 2019 - 00:21

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View PostF1O1, on May 17 2019 - 08:30, said:

 

The trinity triangle applies. l know it quite well. USA med tanks at tier 8, don't do much of anything well. lf l wanted 390m view range, strong turret, gun depression tank with average mobility, l would not use T25 pilot, M26 pershing, M46KR over something like Centurion l / FV4202 / Victoria / RAAC, vastly superior tanks with actual threatening guns. Heck, l would take indien panzer over the American tanks, as the mobility is pretty much the same, and although less turret armour and view range, vastly improves firepower and a smaller target. STA med tanks, M4 Rev also, at they can hulldown as small targets and actually have threatening armament. The american medium tanks have absolutely no identity, and are completely stale. Even the autoloader T69, with its 4 year old stat balancing, is no where near as capable as tanks like progetto, pantera, Lorraine, Somua, Etc. 

 

Couple thoughts.... first, it is very difficult gauge your experience with Tier 8 mediums when you post from an alt account with only 7 low tier tanks and 60 battles. If you have a good number of these tanks and people could actually see you are struggling with the American mediums... you'd probably get some solid advice. Right now I'm wondering if your just bashing them for the sake of bashing them... or you are just waiting for the chance to "school" anybody who disagrees with you...

 

Turns out I have quite a few of the tanks on your list there... so here are comparisons of a good number of the T8 premium mediums: T25 pilot, M46 KR, FV4202, Mutz (don't have the Ind. Panzer), M4a1 Rev, STA-2, Lorr. 40T (the Somua is a heavy) and I added the Lansen C as well. The Progetto won't fit on the screen but I can post that one too if it is that important....

 

First list shows them as they sit in my garage with equipment, crew skills, and premium rounds. Obviously YMMV depending on equipment and crew skills... so the second list are all the tanks bone stock, 100% crews only, standard rounds. In the interest of disclosure... the KR has my extra Thunderbolt BIA crew in it. BTW, I don't run food or bond equipment in anything.

 

Posted Image

 

Posted Image

 

I don't really see how all those others are vastly superior to the two American tanks.... T25 and the KR are pretty much mid pack on everything. IMO... biggest problem with the American tanks is the base pen and shell velocity. 

 

Here they are stock with standard rounds:

 

Posted Image

 

Posted Image

 

The M4a1 Rev you keep touting has less DPM than both American tanks... it has crazy good shell velocity but its base pen is not exceptional. It also has standard APCR round which will give you more bounces, its heat pen isn't much better than the APCR of the others. It is a Tier 5 hull that sees Tier 10s, period. It is also the slowest with worst mobility.

 

The STA-2 has the same sluggish shell velocity as the American 90mm guns (for now) which make it harder to snipe at range. Has the best reload... good aim time (not the best) and good DPM. It also has good mobility and camo... which it needs because its armor is terrible.

 

Honestly if you think the Rev or STA will be better at peaking ridges because their turrets are smaller... I think you are in for disappointment. You enemy isn't going to have to aim around your mantlet or go for the cupolas... the can just pen wherever they hit.

 

The British tanks have the toughest turrets for ridge peeking... but notice that the FV4202 also has the second lowest DPM... the lowest being the 40T and its autoloader.

 

If you don't like the American mediums... that is fine. Nobody is forcing you play them... you have plenty of other choices. But "I don't like American Mediums" isn't the same as "American Mediums are total crap"....

 

And in case you are wondering... of the list, I do best in the FV4202. Doesn't mean I think the rest of them are junk.



madogthefirst #14 Posted May 18 2019 - 00:50

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View PostZePaladin, on May 16 2019 - 19:34, said:

 

^ This is more or less hitting the nail right on the head. 

Does this mean that you can't do well in the Persh? Absolutely not. But, what it does mean is that you're playing a tank with ~2013 stats against newer and better tanks, so you'll have to get creative. Unfortunately, I never really figured the Persh out myself. However, what I can say to you is play as if you don't have any armor whatsoever. Don't count on your armor all that much, because it isn't all that much anyway. If you play cautiously, wait out the fire from other tanks and take pokes when you're safe, you'll find your games more enjoyable. Why so? Because most people don't see the Persh as a threat. And rightfully so. By itself, it doesn't boast large alpha or monster dpm, but if you're supporting other tanks instead, you will find a better win rate and better damage profile. That is because the Persh can help turn the tide as a support. It's accurate enough with good pen to hit enemies hard and reliably, so just wait for your chance! Play more like a support than a brawler or true med.

It is a medium if you are relying on the armor you are doing it wrong.



madogthefirst #15 Posted May 18 2019 - 00:57

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View PostChaseR392, on May 17 2019 - 15:21, said:

 

Couple thoughts.... first, it is very difficult gauge your experience with Tier 8 mediums when you post from an alt account with only 7 low tier tanks and 60 battles. If you have a good number of these tanks and people could actually see you are struggling with the American mediums... you'd probably get some solid advice. Right now I'm wondering if your just bashing them for the sake of bashing them... or you are just waiting for the chance to "school" anybody who disagrees with you...

 

Turns out I have quite a few of the tanks on your list there... so here are comparisons of a good number of the T8 premium mediums: T25 pilot, M46 KR, FV4202, Mutz (don't have the Ind. Panzer), M4a1 Rev, STA-2, Lorr. 40T (the Somua is a heavy) and I added the Lansen C as well. The Progetto won't fit on the screen but I can post that one too if it is that important....

 

First list shows them as they sit in my garage with equipment, crew skills, and premium rounds. Obviously YMMV depending on equipment and crew skills... so the second list are all the tanks bone stock, 100% crews only, standard rounds. In the interest of disclosure... the KR has my extra Thunderbolt BIA crew in it. BTW, I don't run food or bond equipment in anything.

 

Spoiler

 

I don't really see how all those others are vastly superior to the two American tanks.... T25 and the KR are pretty much mid pack on everything. IMO... biggest problem with the American tanks is the base pen and shell velocity. 

 

Here they are stock with standard rounds:

 

Spoiler

 

The M4a1 Rev you keep touting has less DPM than both American tanks... it has crazy good shell velocity but its base pen is not exceptional. It also has standard APCR round which will give you more bounces, its heat pen isn't much better than the APCR of the others. It is a Tier 5 hull that sees Tier 10s, period. It is also the slowest with worst mobility.

 

The STA-2 has the same sluggish shell velocity as the American 90mm guns (for now) which make it harder to snipe at range. Has the best reload... good aim time (not the best) and good DPM. It also has good mobility and camo... which it needs because its armor is terrible.

 

Honestly if you think the Rev or STA will be better at peaking ridges because their turrets are smaller... I think you are in for disappointment. You enemy isn't going to have to aim around your mantlet or go for the cupolas... the can just pen wherever they hit.

 

The British tanks have the toughest turrets for ridge peeking... but notice that the FV4202 also has the second lowest DPM... the lowest being the 40T and its autoloader.

 

If you don't like the American mediums... that is fine. Nobody is forcing you play them... you have plenty of other choices. But "I don't like American Mediums" isn't the same as "American Mediums are total crap"....

 

And in case you are wondering... of the list, I do best in the FV4202. Doesn't mean I think the rest of them are junk.

I also know for a fact the Primo Victoria has a slower RoF than my M26 and with less alpha. The FV42 can easily be penned in the turret with slightly higher pen gun, I do it with my Indien and Tiger II.



F1O1 #16 Posted May 18 2019 - 15:43

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Don't use world of tanks in-game comparison, because crew strength/equipment may skew base vehicle attributes.

 

3.87rds/min 440 dmg Chimera

7.50rds/mn 230 dmg FV4202 

7.23rds/min 240 dmg Chieftain T95

7.40rds/min 240 dmg AMX50100  Using 90mm, loader crew issues slow ROF

5.45rds/min 320 dmg 100mm VTU

7.27rds/min 240 dmg T69

4.48rds/min 390 dmg T-34-3

7.32rds/min 240 dmg Pershing  Note:  Super persh used to fire 7.32, buffed to 7.50

7.41rds/min 240 dmg M46KR

7.14rds/min 250 dmg Type 59

7.50rds/min 240 dmg Mutz, Super Pershing, Panther ll L100 88, Progetto/Pantera** these two are variable

7.63rds/min 240 dmg upcoming Skoda T-27

4.69rds/min 390 dmg M4 Rev

8.00rds/min 230 dmg RAAC, Victoria, Cent l.  5.22rds/min 360 dmg Alt 5, loader crew issues slow ROF

7.69rds/min 240 dmg T25 pilot

7.50rds/min 250 dmg T54Mod1

7.89rds/min 240 dmg 90mm T32

5.45rds/min 360 dmg Emil l Elite, loader crew issues slow ROF

8.00rds/min 240 dmg STA1 / 2, T95E2, Patton-59  Note:  FCM50 used to fire 8.00

7.69rds/min 250 dmg WZ132 

6.45rds/min 300 dmg 100mm AMX65T

6.27rds/min 320 dmg Emil l stock, loader crew issues slow ROF

8.33rds/min 240 dmg Alt 5, loader crew issues slow ROF

8.22rds/min 240 dmg AMXCDC, Panther ll L71 88

8.33rds/min 240 dmg lndien Pz, Patriot, HK30.   8.00rds/min 250 dmg T-44-100, T-44

11.54rds/min 180 dmg LT432

8.57rds/min 240 dmg 88mm VTU 

8.33rds/min 250 dmg Future lndien Pz

8.70rds/min 240 dmg Panther 88.   6.52rds/min 320 dmg Lansen

7.00rds/min 300 dmg KV5

8.82rds/min 240 dmg AMX65T, FCM50

6.67rds/min 320 dmg 53TP stock

14.29rds/min 150 dmg 17pdr Cent l

8.96rds/min 240 dmg 88mm Tiger ll

9.09rds/min 240 dmg M41GF

9.52rds/min 230 dmg 20pdr Charioteer

9.23rds/min 240 dmg Future STA1

Caernarvon A X Too high

Caernarvon Too high

 

This covers a broad range of vehicles. Here are their DPM power limit, within the tier. l try to include gun depression, view range tanks. l exclude Lorraine, because of the huge difference in firepower and role. l exclude STG and object 416, as they are more like TD. l included WZ132, LT432, HK30, and M41GF, because these are favoured LT for acting as meds. T-34-2 sucks, literally one of the worst tanks in the games, not putting it up. l included Patriot, T32, FCM50, and Caernarvon because of similarity. 

 

l am not sure where you are getting your numbers, but these are the real numbers, just using 100% set crew. M4 Rev has less DPM than T25 Pilot, not by much, but has more DPM than super pershing, pershing, T69, M46KR. By like a near 50pts, despite an astounding alpha damage advantage. l have marked the avg threshold in DPM, a tier 8 med should have, at 8.00rds/min 240 dmg constant. Frankly, it is apparent, the most tanks share it, and it is conveniently in the middle of the list. Hence, AKA avg.

 

Cent l, Victoria, RAAC all have the same DPM, notably higher than Pershing / M46 KR / Super Pershing / T69

....For fact, you are wrong. You must have them confused with FV4202, yes it fires slower. Not the other 20pdr tanks

 

Only 2 USA tanks achieve that, this so-called avg. The very strong pre-nerf LT M41GF and the mediocre T95E2. 

 

 

 



ChaseR392 #17 Posted May 18 2019 - 17:23

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View PostF1O1, on May 18 2019 - 15:43, said:

Don't use world of tanks in-game comparison, because crew strength/equipment may skew base vehicle attributes.

 

I literally said in my post the second set of screenshots show the tanks compared 100% stock... 100% crews only (no skills/perks), no equipment.



AZandEL #18 Posted May 18 2019 - 18:41

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View Postmadogthefirst, on May 14 2019 - 01:21, said:

I'll sum up your problem: get good.

 

Great answer. Classic for this toxic forum.

F1O1 #19 Posted May 18 2019 - 22:25

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View PostChaseR392, on May 18 2019 - 16:23, said:

 

I literally said in my post the second set of screenshots show the tanks compared 100% stock... 100% crews only (no skills/perks), no equipment.

 

well, then you cannot read, because M4 Rev has more DPM than super pershing, pershing, T69, M46KR.  Only T25 Pilot and T95E2 have more than it.

 



ChaseR392 #20 Posted May 18 2019 - 22:44

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View PostF1O1, on May 18 2019 - 22:25, said:

 

well, then you cannot read, because M4 Rev has more DPM than super pershing, pershing, T69, M46KR.  Only T25 Pilot and T95E2 have more than it.

 

 

I read just fine... I chose to ignore your "jumbled wall of facts and figures" because I'm not going to go line by line and double check them.

 

If 51 less base DPM makes that much difference  to you go buy a Rev and report back to us about how your game play has increased dramatically vs. those rotten 'Merica mediums. If ROF and DPM is all you care about find that tank and play it... you don't need anybody else's permission. 

 

In the meantime enjoy your "technicality" trophy....doesn't change the fact this is nothing more than a pointless "tank bashing" thread.






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