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Artillery Re-balance Idea: Delaying Information

Artillery Rebalance Nerf Buff Arty SPG Rework

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Mr_FluffyWaffle #1 Posted May 15 2019 - 12:05

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Artillery is a unit that, 95% of the time, relies on the spotting information gathered by their teammates. Currently, this information is conveyed from the front lines to arty instantaneously. Oftentimes arty will shoot at anything on the map that's both within its gun arc and lit at the same time the moment it's available. This means that even driving a light tank at 60km/hr while spotted is no safety from artillery.  This also means that artillery can have a shell half-way across the map by the time Sixth Sense has gone off for the target.  I've been pondering for a while about arty and how to balance it in a way that isn't just another nerf/buff to the damaging capabilities of the class. Given how arty is played and its role in the game (a sort of "anti-camping" unit), I had an idea: Delay the spotting information Artillery gets while in artillery-view by a few seconds.  Let me explain this mechanic.

 

Artillery's overhead aiming system (arty-view) is the only one of its kind in WoT.  All other tanks get a 3rd-person or gun-barrel orientation that forces them to be in some kind of relative view range of their target.  Arty can see any lit tank on the map clearly, regardless of position.  Their location will also immediately see that tank, and this is where I think a change can be applied.  The trade-off for such a full view of the battlefield should be a delay in when that information is received.  I propose that arty-view (but not artillery's tank-like view) should yield delayed locations of all tanks by just a few seconds.  In layman's terms, artillery will see lit and moving tanks a few seconds behind their legitimate location.  This accomplishes a few things:

 

1) Artillery can still accomplish its anti-camping goals. For this example, let's assume that arty-view is a number of seconds behind the actual locations of all tanks. With this in place, tanks that don't move after being spotted will shortly be "lit in arty-view" and will be made obvious. Any tank that's been stationary the whole time can be shot at, and because they haven't moved they may be classified as "camping". Tanks constantly peeking the same corner or bush will be made obvious and arty can deal with them as well.  It's up to the artillery player to employ more skill to recognize who's likely to be in the same location even with the informational delay.  This mechanic is designed to protect players that want to actively avoid arty by moving. Arty can still do its job of pounding players that stick to one location for too long.

2) Artillery still gets real-time data in TD mode. This one goes almost without saying, but I know a few arty players have now become worried that they'll be rushed by light tanks before they can realize anything. Fortunately for them, TD mode is (obviously) real-time and not arty-view-time. This means they can deal with any close-range problem like any other tank. This also means that arty can swap to TD mode to get an up-to-date minimap, but going to arty-mode will then add the delay to what they're shooting at.

3) Artillery can be "buffed" to combat this nerf. I'm hesitant to list what I think the appropriate buff should be for this section. I'm mostly down for leaving this part to public opinion. Given that this nerf puts arty more in the anti-camping department, I'd suggest giving them higher single-target damage for hitting someone directly. Perhaps more splash damage/radius as well to hit people camping gently behind buildings. What I don't want to see this arty change do is force them to spam shots into Heavy Tank corridors and reap massive numbers.

 

I believe artillery can still be made a decent class that accomplishes the goal of anti-camping, but in its current state it does not. Tanks right now will see 3 artillery players and instead be encouraged to sit snugly behind a large wall to conserve hitpoints and avoid being stunned. Artillery needs to be something that doesn't discourage players from advancing the match progress. It does need to be something that keeps players from holding one location for minutes on end.  

 

Please leave any suggestions on my concept and if I agree enough I may add them in to this OP under an edit.

I disagree with all "artillery is fine as is" posts.

I doubt artillery would ever be removed so the next best thing is finding a way for it to be fair to all.


Edited by Mr_FluffyWaffle, May 15 2019 - 12:07.


VooDooKobra #2 Posted May 15 2019 - 12:46

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so the complaint used to be arty can one shot a heavy tank, they fixed that but gave stun, stun and blast radius were now too big so now that is less.  so now to make arty even less of a factor they can only target enemy vehicles that are in the same spot for long periods of time? 

 

thats playable to you? 

 

tell me how would you also redo all the missions to make them doable? 

 

arty is at least tolerable as it is


Edited by VooDooKobra, May 15 2019 - 12:46.


Mojo_Riesing #3 Posted May 15 2019 - 13:16

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Well, that's not gonna happen.

DetectiveHoots #4 Posted May 15 2019 - 13:44

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They should just get rid of them. The math that "20%" of the player base enjoys arty and would be likely to quit if they removed arty from the game is strange. So they'd rather enrage some better part of 80% of the player base, to keep 20% happy? Then you go into something like Frontline and you get spg, airstrike and artillery...  Who ever thought that spgs would be a good idea in this game must have been a masochist.

RickEdwards #5 Posted May 15 2019 - 13:55

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I think made a post with a similar idea a while ago; I said the screen should update every second or two because the fact that arty can nail a tank zig zagging at 50+ kph is stupid. The comment was met with the general "wahh, arty is so underpowered it doesn't need nerfs" by crappy arty players, as you'd expect.

 

Personally, I think that they should just get rid of the class and give LTs the ability to call in strikes similarly to FL, since there is no real reason to have a person as the arty piece since even a brain dead monkey can do that part.



Zwinmar #6 Posted May 15 2019 - 14:05

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Yep, nerf arty, they cant move, cant defend themselves, have no armor, have no health. Aim time and dispersion is double anyone elses. They dont get overmatch even though they have the biggest guns in the game while doing the least damage. Oh yeah, and they have to predict where a target is going to be anywhere from 1 to 3 seconds in the future...

WhineMaker #7 Posted May 15 2019 - 14:15

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Maybe OP should stop going in a straight line, even at top speed, and arty will have a much harder time hitting you. Zig zagging in a predictable pattern, is also a very easy shot.

 

If you're getting hit on the move by arty, it's not arty that's the problem, it's YOU... :facepalm:

 

View PostDetectiveHoots, on May 15 2019 - 04:44, said:

They should just get rid of them. The math that "20%" of the player base enjoys arty and would be likely to quit if they removed arty from the game is strange. So they'd rather enrage some better part of 80% of the player base, to keep 20% happy? Then you go into something like Frontline and you get spg, airstrike and artillery...  Who ever thought that spgs would be a good idea in this game must have been a masochist.

 

Spoiler

 

Strange how arty is supposedly hated by "everyone", yet the queue for Frontlines is made up of mostly arty... :ohmy:

 

 

So, have you got any "factual" data to backup your claimed percentages? Links?

 

And no, facts pulled from your rectal area are not acceptable... :facepalm:

 

 

WoT Blitz is a simple and viable answer to all of your issues with arty in WoT... :child:

 

 



Mr_FluffyWaffle #8 Posted May 15 2019 - 14:39

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View PostVooDooKobra, on May 15 2019 - 12:46, said:

so the complaint used to be arty can one shot a heavy tank, they fixed that but gave stun, stun and blast radius were now too big so now that is less.  so now to make arty even less of a factor they can only target enemy vehicles that are in the same spot for long periods of time? 

 

thats playable to you? 

 

tell me how would you also redo all the missions to make them doable? 

 

arty is at least tolerable as it is

 

I'd compensate this by giving back some of the single-target damage they used to have.  Frankly, if you get hit by arty after the delay system is in place, you deserve it.  The single-target damage and splash radius would go up.  Stun could be removed.

 

Arty missions would go back to damage / splash damage numbers.

 

 



Mr_FluffyWaffle #9 Posted May 15 2019 - 14:41

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View PostMojo_Riesing, on May 15 2019 - 13:16, said:

Well, that's not gonna happen.

Sadly, but it's worth a brainstorm.

 

View PostDetectiveHoots, on May 15 2019 - 13:44, said:

They should just get rid of them. The math that "20%" of the player base enjoys arty and would be likely to quit if they removed arty from the game is strange. So they'd rather enrage some better part of 80% of the player base, to keep 20% happy? Then you go into something like Frontline and you get spg, airstrike and artillery...  Who ever thought that spgs would be a good idea in this game must have been a masochist.

I don't think removal is going to happen period, so a workaround is in order.



Mr_FluffyWaffle #10 Posted May 15 2019 - 14:47

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View PostWhineMaker, on May 15 2019 - 14:15, said:

Maybe OP should stop going in a straight line, even at top speed, and arty will have a much harder time hitting you. Zig zagging in a predictable pattern, is also a very easy shot.

 

If you're getting hit on the move by arty, it's not arty that's the problem, it's YOU... :facepalm:

 

 

Spoiler

 

Strange how arty is supposedly hated by "everyone", yet the queue for Frontlines is made up of mostly arty... :ohmy:

 

 

So, have you got any "factual" data to backup your claimed percentages? Links?

 

And no, facts pulled from your rectal area are not acceptable... :facepalm:

 

 

WoT Blitz is a simple and viable answer to all of your issues with arty in WoT... :child:

 

 

Um... bud... Arty queue in Frontline happens because it's easy.  I've seen multiple artillery players get General and several accolades from playing one thing the whole time.  I mean, really think about it:

 

1) Enemy tanks are guaranteed to pile into several key locations

2) Click key locations

3) Farm up massive rank and free tanks?

 

People get bored of Frontlines quickly and want the easiest way to farm.  Why not pick a class where all you have to do to do well is click every, what, 45 seconds?

Did you honestly think that was a good example?



the_dude_76 #11 Posted May 15 2019 - 14:51

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View PostMr_FluffyWaffle, on May 15 2019 - 07:41, said:

I don't think removal is going to happen period, so a workaround is in order.

 

Or you can just accept the game as it is just like 95% of the people who play it...

 

Despite what you guys con yourselves into believing most people don't care about arty one way or the other.



24cups #12 Posted May 15 2019 - 15:07

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View Postthe_dude_76, on May 15 2019 - 08:51, said:

 

Or you can just accept the game as it is just like 95% of the people who play it...

 

Despite what you guys con yourselves into believing most people don't care about arty one way or the other.

You're wrong.  I know because someone once posted in the forum that 95% of players hate arty and we all know that you can't post nonsense. 



GeorgePreddy #13 Posted May 15 2019 - 15:33

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"...everybody hates artillery, probably apart from artillery guys..."    

 

Quote, Victor Kislyi, Physicist & WG Founder / CEO

 

Here's the video, the quote is at 8:00 in:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Altwar #14 Posted May 15 2019 - 15:47

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View PostGeorgePreddy, on May 15 2019 - 06:33, said:

"...everybody hates artillery, probably apart from artillery guys..."    

 

Quote, Victor Kislyi, Physicist & WG Founder / CEO

 

What's an artillery guy?  One who mostly plays artillery?  One who plays it equally with other classes?  Anyone who has ever played artillery?



Mikosah #15 Posted May 15 2019 - 16:03

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View PostAltwar, on May 15 2019 - 08:47, said:

 

What's an artillery guy?  One who mostly plays artillery?  One who plays it equally with other classes?  Anyone who has ever played artillery?

 

Don't be coy, you know exactly what kind of player fits that description. But it isn't the frequency of arta play that makes the distinction, its either the failure to understand that arta is a crude, poorly-designed gimmick that has caused nothing but problems for the game, or a malicious intent to use it precisely because it is so.

I_QQ_4_U #16 Posted May 15 2019 - 16:11

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View PostMr_FluffyWaffle, on May 15 2019 - 12:05, said:

  I've been pondering for a while about arty and how to balance it in a way that isn't just another nerf/buff to the damaging capabilities of the class.

 

So making it even harder to hit things with a class that has an average hit rate of about 35% isn't a nerf? Did you think about this at all? This idea is beyond stupid.

Altwar #17 Posted May 15 2019 - 16:21

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View PostMikosah, on May 15 2019 - 07:03, said:

 

Don't be coy, you know exactly what kind of player fits that description. But it isn't the frequency of arta play that makes the distinction, its either the failure to understand that arta is a crude, poorly-designed gimmick that has caused nothing but problems for the game, or a malicious intent to use it precisely because it is so.

 

I was asking in earnest; nothing coy about my statement. But I don't go about categorizing players in this game either.  I play this game and have a good time. I like to think other players are having a good time too.  I believe that if enjoying the game was a stat, I'd easily be a "blue" or "purple" player in that respect because I'm not that player who grouses over RNG, being low tier, getting outplayed, etc.  I just have a lot of fun.

 

I call the SPG class SPGs because the game does, rather than "arta", or "arty".   I disagree with your assessment of SPGs being a poorly designed gimmick.  I think there are a lot of players in the game who are quite lazy and don't want a game mechanic catching their lazy behavior.  By lazy behavior I mean driving in straight lines.  Parking and staying behind cover because it is "safe" and should be for as long as they are there.  Parking out in the open because it happens to be a good spot to snipe.  That kind of lazy behavior.  ;)



WhineMaker #18 Posted May 15 2019 - 16:38

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View PostMr_FluffyWaffle, on May 15 2019 - 05:47, said:

Um... bud... Arty queue in Frontline happens because it's easy.  I've seen multiple artillery players get General and several accolades from playing one thing the whole time.  I mean, really think about it:

 

1) Enemy tanks are guaranteed to

 

2) Click key locations

3) Farm up massive rank and free tanks?

 

People get bored of Frontlines quickly and want the easiest way to farm.  Why not pick a class where all you have to do to do well is click every, what, 45 seconds?

Did you honestly think that was a good example?

 

I'm not your bud...

 

Got an example to show factual data that shows differently? Then post it, otherwise, it's only your opinion as to why the Frontline queue is mainly arty players. If you don't like it, WoT Blitz is calling your name for all the arty free games you can handle... :facepalm:

 

 

If you continue to be an easy arty target by continuing to go in a straight line or in a predictable zig zag pattern, you're the problem, not arty. The shell flight time and the prediction where you'll be in 3-5 seconds should tell you what the real issue lies, but I know full well, it's all arty's fault that your terrible at the game and only think you're good. Once you actually learn this little tidbit of advice to avoid arty, you'll actually become a much better player at WoT. Until then, you'll keep on playing like a newb and come to the forums to whine and belly ache how arty shouldn't be able to hit you on the move... :arta:



Craftspirit #19 Posted May 15 2019 - 16:40

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I love seeing peoples fighting without really looking at the OP post and just answering by a generic arty removal/arty is too nerfed post.

 

I actually find this idea really interesting. That may actually remove the ridiculous fact that arty can snapshot your LT in the face and stun it while he is trying to do its role, wich will lead him to the death.

 

Combined with some buffs (like more damage per shots and some tweaks to the splash radius) and maybe the removal of the stun mechanic wich is honestly really useless, arty could actually be more of a real class and may even start to trigger some brain cells to those who play it, since you will now need to choose your targets wisely to imput your damages, and you'll also need to anticipate what will happend.

 

It would also encourage peoples to do the opposite of what the arty is currently encouraging : moving your butt. With this simple feature, arty will finnaly find its role that it was made for : anti camping.

 

If you camp, arty will have a easy target than a moving target

 

So it will target you, and it will be punishing

 

I dont like arty, but I think this would be a great solution to solve some bullcrap about this class and make it more unique than a "lazy play class"



Mr_FluffyWaffle #20 Posted May 15 2019 - 20:17

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View Postthe_dude_76, on May 15 2019 - 14:51, said:

 

Or you can just accept the game as it is just like 95% of the people who play it...

 

Despite what you guys con yourselves into believing most people don't care about arty one way or the other.

 

>95% of the people who play the game are 100% fine with every aspect of World of tanks

I find that nearly impossible to believe.  Instead, people with the most passion for a game will always be looking to improve it.

 

View PostWhineMaker, on May 15 2019 - 16:38, said:

 

I'm not your bud...

 

Got an example to show factual data that shows differently? Then post it, otherwise, it's only your opinion as to why the Frontline queue is mainly arty players. If you don't like it, WoT Blitz is calling your name for all the arty free games you can handle... :facepalm:

 

 

If you continue to be an easy arty target by continuing to go in a straight line or in a predictable zig zag pattern, you're the problem, not arty. The shell flight time and the prediction where you'll be in 3-5 seconds should tell you what the real issue lies, but I know full well, it's all arty's fault that your terrible at the game and only think you're good. Once you actually learn this little tidbit of advice to avoid arty, you'll actually become a much better player at WoT. Until then, you'll keep on playing like a newb and come to the forums to whine and belly ache how arty shouldn't be able to hit you on the move... :arta:

 

You're hitting only one example I used and claim it's the only reason I'm here to talk.  

 

Also, I'm not normally one to bring stats into this, but you tossed out newb (lol) so I'll go ahead and do it.  As a green player, you won't get focused by XVM arties nearly as much as a blue/purple like myself and friends.  That's just the way it goes.  

 

It's also clear that you have a very strong bias towards not nerfing artillery, being that 21,807 battles of yours are made up of it.  It's clear that you're not looking at the artillery unit with an open mind at all.  

 

3,579 M53/55 artillery games.

3094 Batchat 155 58 artillery games.

3107 Object 261 artillery games.

 

Did you think I wouldn't look this up?

 

I also don't say that artillery players are the issue - it's how the class functions as a whole.

 

Maybe cut down on the condescending tone and sarcasm, too, bud?  


Edited by Mr_FluffyWaffle, May 15 2019 - 20:20.






Also tagged with Artillery, Rebalance, Nerf, Buff, Arty, SPG, Rework

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