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Artillery Re-balance Idea: Delaying Information

Artillery Rebalance Nerf Buff Arty SPG Rework

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StarkRaven #21 Posted May 15 2019 - 21:54

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I don't like this, in the context of making artillery only viable against stationary targets. Said stationary targets are either tracked, chai sniping, AFK or artillery. That means everything else is a weird chess game, half-blind shot on mediums, lights, brawling heavies or absolutely anything on the move. You're basically forcing artillery into engaging camping enemies only, when those players are rarely significantly affecting the outcome of the battle.

 

Many SPGs already suffer from long shot travel time, which means even if you lead your target perfectly, they have enough time to stop or turn and your shell will miss. Adding a further delay to the shot arriving will destroy any sort of lead to all but the dumbest of movers and people not moving at all. It would also force several SPGs to aim outside of their gun traverse and take another month to settle back on their target, who could have very easily already turned around or gone unspotted.

 

Artillery's core job is combat effectiveness denial. Slowing down pushes, harassing targets of opportunity or strong positions. It is not specifically an anti-camping device. In order to justify a slot in any team comp, SPGs have to be at least somewhat effective. Adding in an overhead position delay simply serves to make them largely pointless against anyone who wouldn't be caught by a 30-second stationary timer.


Edited by StarkRaven, May 15 2019 - 22:17.


Norseskald #22 Posted May 15 2019 - 22:06

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View PostDetectiveHoots, on May 15 2019 - 13:44, said:

They should just get rid of them. The math that "20%" of the player base enjoys arty and would be likely to quit if they removed arty from the game is strange. So they'd rather enrage some better part of 80% of the player base, to keep 20% happy? Then you go into something like Frontline and you get spg, airstrike and artillery...  Who ever thought that spgs would be a good idea in this game must have been a masochist.

 

could you show this math?

jeb2 #23 Posted May 15 2019 - 22:10

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Well, back to the original suggestion.

 

If this is implemented, it should be applied equally to ALL tanks that did not spot the target themselves originally.

 

That is, if a LT spots a TD behind a bush, his/her teammates should have their own spotting information delayed.  After all, whatever radio transmission is used to tell the arty is being used to tell the other tanks, too.



Altwar #24 Posted May 15 2019 - 22:35

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View PostMr_FluffyWaffle, on May 15 2019 - 11:17, said:

As a green player, you won't get focused by XVM arties nearly as much as a blue/purple like myself and friends.  That's just the way it goes.

 

You say this as if it were a proven fact.  I'd like to see where that proven fact can be referenced if you'd be so kind? 

 

Unless you are a redline sniper (and I won't assume you are, even if your most played vehicle is a Hellcat and your most played class is Tank Destroyers), odds are if you a blue/purple, your play is more aggressive than the norm which logically puts you in harm's way more than norm because you are being spotted more often which is a good way to get SPG attention.  Unless you are the player that lets the other teammates go first and mops up after them as they fall.  Again, I have no way of knowing what your play style is so I point at the 3 ways I see most blue/purples operate.  My point here is that it maybe your play style that gets you focused and not your Wn8 color.  I'll discount your "friends" because you didn't present anything that shows that you speak on their behalf.

 

Oh and vehicles like Hellcats are very susceptible to HE with their convenient open top which makes them a natural target for SPGs.  A Hellcat is a potential one shot target even for tier 5 SPGs so that can earn them extra attention as well, which has nothing to do with a Wn8 color.



scHnuuudle_bop #25 Posted May 15 2019 - 22:37

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View PostMr_FluffyWaffle, on May 15 2019 - 12:05, said:

Artillery is a unit that, 95% of the time, relies on the spotting information gathered by their teammates. Currently, this information is conveyed from the front lines to arty instantaneously. Oftentimes arty will shoot at anything on the map that's both within its gun arc and lit at the same time the moment it's available. This means that even driving a light tank at 60km/hr while spotted is no safety from artillery.  This also means that artillery can have a shell half-way across the map by the time Sixth Sense has gone off for the target.  I've been pondering for a while about arty and how to balance it in a way that isn't just another nerf/buff to the damaging capabilities of the class. Given how arty is played and its role in the game (a sort of "anti-camping" unit), I had an idea: Delay the spotting information Artillery gets while in artillery-view by a few seconds.  Let me explain this mechanic.

 

Artillery's overhead aiming system (arty-view) is the only one of its kind in WoT.  All other tanks get a 3rd-person or gun-barrel orientation that forces them to be in some kind of relative view range of their target.  Arty can see any lit tank on the map clearly, regardless of position.  Their location will also immediately see that tank, and this is where I think a change can be applied.  The trade-off for such a full view of the battlefield should be a delay in when that information is received.  I propose that arty-view (but not artillery's tank-like view) should yield delayed locations of all tanks by just a few seconds.  In layman's terms, artillery will see lit and moving tanks a few seconds behind their legitimate location.  This accomplishes a few things:

 

1) Artillery can still accomplish its anti-camping goals. For this example, let's assume that arty-view is a number of seconds behind the actual locations of all tanks. With this in place, tanks that don't move after being spotted will shortly be "lit in arty-view" and will be made obvious. Any tank that's been stationary the whole time can be shot at, and because they haven't moved they may be classified as "camping". Tanks constantly peeking the same corner or bush will be made obvious and arty can deal with them as well.  It's up to the artillery player to employ more skill to recognize who's likely to be in the same location even with the informational delay.  This mechanic is designed to protect players that want to actively avoid arty by moving. Arty can still do its job of pounding players that stick to one location for too long.

2) Artillery still gets real-time data in TD mode. This one goes almost without saying, but I know a few arty players have now become worried that they'll be rushed by light tanks before they can realize anything. Fortunately for them, TD mode is (obviously) real-time and not arty-view-time. This means they can deal with any close-range problem like any other tank. This also means that arty can swap to TD mode to get an up-to-date minimap, but going to arty-mode will then add the delay to what they're shooting at.

3) Artillery can be "buffed" to combat this nerf. I'm hesitant to list what I think the appropriate buff should be for this section. I'm mostly down for leaving this part to public opinion. Given that this nerf puts arty more in the anti-camping department, I'd suggest giving them higher single-target damage for hitting someone directly. Perhaps more splash damage/radius as well to hit people camping gently behind buildings. What I don't want to see this arty change do is force them to spam shots into Heavy Tank corridors and reap massive numbers.

 

I believe artillery can still be made a decent class that accomplishes the goal of anti-camping, but in its current state it does not. Tanks right now will see 3 artillery players and instead be encouraged to sit snugly behind a large wall to conserve hitpoints and avoid being stunned. Artillery needs to be something that doesn't discourage players from advancing the match progress. It does need to be something that keeps players from holding one location for minutes on end.  

 

Please leave any suggestions on my concept and if I agree enough I may add them in to this OP under an edit.

I disagree with all "artillery is fine as is" posts.

I doubt artillery would ever be removed so the next best thing is finding a way for it to be fair to all.

 

So a shell launched at you, just as 6th sense goes off, and you are travelling 60Kph.

If you get hit, either a very good shot, or bad sad driving.

It has nothing to do with the game.

If this happens to you all the time. Do not blame artillery, your teammates, Wargaming, the vehicles in the game, nor the map.Just you.

 

Your first suggestion already exists. It is called ballistic arcing and deflection shooting.

A shot is not like the laser beams , that simpler vehicles use, tanks and td's

Actual skill is involved in every artillery shot, and to a much higher degree with a moving target. 

 

TD mode, what game do you play? Certainly not this one. OMG, this is so laughable and desperate, and sad, OMG

Artillery has no such thing.

 

OMG, OMG, just when I thought the real goofy parts fell out of this sack of desperation.

He wants something in the game , designed to discouraging advancing players, and  find a way so it , " doesn't discourage players from advancing the match progress. "

OMG, I am almost falling off my chair. All the things everything is designed to do, he wants changed.  

 

Oh , Oh, gunfire holds up the team, pillows, throw pillows, that will not discourage those red guys shooting at us. Last thing a battle needs is someone to discourage the advance of the enemy.

 

All those movie lines, "take the low ground", "when you see the whites of their eyes, run, because the pillows didn't work."

 



jeb2 #26 Posted May 15 2019 - 22:54

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View PostAltwar, on May 15 2019 - 22:35, said:

 

You say this as if it were a proven fact.  I'd like to see where that proven fact can be referenced if you'd be so kind? 

 

Unless you are a redline sniper (and I won't assume you are, even if your most played vehicle is a Hellcat and your most played class is Tank Destroyers), odds are if you a blue/purple, your play is more aggressive than the norm which logically puts you in harm's way more than norm because you are being spotted more often which is a good way to get SPG attention.  Unless you are the player that lets the other teammates go first and mops up after them as they fall.  Again, I have no way of knowing what your play style is so I point at the 3 ways I see most blue/purples operate.  My point here is that it maybe your play style that gets you focused and not your Wn8 color.  I'll discount your "friends" because you didn't present anything that shows that you speak on their behalf.

 

Oh and vehicles like Hellcats are very susceptible to HE with their convenient open top which makes them a natural target for SPGs.  A Hellcat is a potential one shot target even for tier 5 SPGs so that can earn them extra attention as well, which has nothing to do with a Wn8 color.

 

I want to second the notion that open top TDs are perhaps the prime arty target.  Counter-battery is also high, but arty tend not to be spotted early and move after firing, so tracer combing is less rewarding than open turret TDs that are spotted.

 

Also, when I play arty (I have never had XVM), I get accused of focusing on high stat players, but I reply that I prioritize threats.  If a tank is in a great spot, or is making a strong play, or otherwise standing out, they go to the top of the shot queue.  And which players are most likely to behave that way??



Cured_Apathy #27 Posted May 15 2019 - 23:01

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View PostWhineMaker, on May 15 2019 - 09:38, said:

 

I'm not your bud...

 

Got an example to show factual data that shows differently? Then post it, otherwise, it's only your opinion as to why the Frontline queue is mainly arty players. If you don't like it, WoT Blitz is calling your name for all the arty free games you can handle... :facepalm:

 

 

If you continue to be an easy arty target by continuing to go in a straight line or in a predictable zig zag pattern, you're the problem, not arty. The shell flight time and the prediction where you'll be in 3-5 seconds should tell you what the real issue lies, but I know full well, it's all arty's fault that your terrible at the game and only think you're good. Once you actually learn this little tidbit of advice to avoid arty, you'll actually become a much better player at WoT. Until then, you'll keep on playing like a newb and come to the forums to whine and belly ache how arty shouldn't be able to hit you on the move... :arta:

Frontlines map is very open and there are tons of targets because the map is so open and its easy to click the whole game in arty. Why cant u be constructive almost ever man. You are always so negative lol



the_dude_76 #28 Posted May 15 2019 - 23:21

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View PostMr_FluffyWaffle, on May 15 2019 - 13:17, said:

 

>95% of the people who play the game are 100% fine with every aspect of World of tanks

I find that nearly impossible to believe.  Instead, people with the most passion for a game will always be looking to improve it.

 

A- I never said anyone was "100% fine with every aspect of World of tanks"

B- Passion?? You understand that this is a video game right??

C- Many people are able to understand that their personal desires are not shared by everyone, what improves the game for one person will ruin it for another. So I, and many others, are not self centered enough to believe that every aspect of the game needs to be tailored to our personal desires. I don't have any major complaints so I am satisfied. If I wasn't I'd find a different game. This seems so painfully obvious I don't understand how so many can't seem to grasp the notion. The fact that the VAST majority of players never come here with sob stories about how broken the game is would seem to indicate that most people accept the game for what it is. And again to clarify, no, "accepting" the game does not mean someone is 100% fine with every aspect of it...



Mr_FluffyWaffle #29 Posted May 16 2019 - 00:05

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View PostAltwar, on May 15 2019 - 22:35, said:

 

You say this as if it were a proven fact.  I'd like to see where that proven fact can be referenced if you'd be so kind? 

 

Unless you are a redline sniper (and I won't assume you are, even if your most played vehicle is a Hellcat and your most played class is Tank Destroyers), odds are if you a blue/purple, your play is more aggressive than the norm which logically puts you in harm's way more than norm because you are being spotted more often which is a good way to get SPG attention.  Unless you are the player that lets the other teammates go first and mops up after them as they fall.  Again, I have no way of knowing what your play style is so I point at the 3 ways I see most blue/purples operate.  My point here is that it maybe your play style that gets you focused and not your Wn8 color.  I'll discount your "friends" because you didn't present anything that shows that you speak on their behalf.

 

Oh and vehicles like Hellcats are very susceptible to HE with their convenient open top which makes them a natural target for SPGs.  A Hellcat is a potential one shot target even for tier 5 SPGs so that can earn them extra attention as well, which has nothing to do with a Wn8 color.

It's something pretty well known that artillery running XVM will target enemy players that have the best stats if given the chance.  That's not even in the "proven fact" category, it's bloody common knowledge.

 

I haven't had the Hellcat in my garage in 4 years, for the record.  It was my training and learning tool when I first started the game out and it's done me well since.



Mr_FluffyWaffle #30 Posted May 16 2019 - 00:17

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View Postthe_dude_76, on May 15 2019 - 23:21, said:

 

A- I never said anyone was "100% fine with every aspect of World of tanks"

B- Passion?? You understand that this is a video game right??

C- Many people are able to understand that their personal desires are not shared by everyone, what improves the game for one person will ruin it for another. So I, and many others, are not self centered enough to believe that every aspect of the game needs to be tailored to our personal desires. I don't have any major complaints so I am satisfied. If I wasn't I'd find a different game. This seems so painfully obvious I don't understand how so many can't seem to grasp the notion. The fact that the VAST majority of players never come here with sob stories about how broken the game is would seem to indicate that most people accept the game for what it is. And again to clarify, no, "accepting" the game does not mean someone is 100% fine with every aspect of it...

 

A - I was just taking your exaggeration to the level you presented it at.

B - "Passionate" does not translate to "Obsesses over" and/or "Wants to marry".  Flatly giving a crap beyond your average casual player can be seen as passionate.  People that make content for WoT in all shapes and forms are passionate.  Players that go on the test servers to give legitimate feedback are passionate.  Is it shocking to you that someone might want to improve a video game they spend time enjoying?

C - That still doesn't address the concept that everything can be made better.  You're not very insightful if you can type with a straight face you don't have any major complaints.  There's nothing in WoT you'd change?  Even beyond artillery?  Nothing like new player retention, end-game content, credit economy, crew retraining, releasing OP tech lines only to nerf them later, bonds, matchmaking?  Everything is just peachy?



Altwar #31 Posted May 16 2019 - 02:19

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View PostMr_FluffyWaffle, on May 15 2019 - 15:05, said:

It's something pretty well known that artillery running XVM will target enemy players that have the best stats if given the chance.  That's not even in the "proven fact" category, it's bloody common knowledge.

 

I haven't had the Hellcat in my garage in 4 years, for the record.  It was my training and learning tool when I first started the game out and it's done me well since.

 

Pretty well known by who?   Players who say they are, believe they are, and therefore it's common knowledge?

 

I notice you didn't address what type of blue/purple you are.   Again, certain types of play style promote being shot at.   Aggressive, first seen or constantly seen makes those players a target.  Given, being constantly in action means there's lots of opportunity for success but it presents a player as a target. 

 

And this is what attracts my attention when I play an SPG.   I have XVM.  Couldn't care less what color a player's Wn8 makes them.  Battlefield situation and actions dictate a significant amount of my focus.   For instance, an enemy player's actions manages to hold up a push by my team so guess what?  I'm looking to help them out by putting a slowdown on that player.   An fast moving enemy flanking teammates will get my attention.   Moving aggressively towards my team's cap gets my attention.  Destroying a few of my teammates gets my attention.   Sitting in an open top vehicle sniping gets my attention.  Heck, sitting still but visible is almost a sure thing for getting attention, regardless if the player is behind cover.   This is where the self-propelled part of an SPG comes into play.   I will move and find a spot to negate that cover if need be.

 

What you call common knowledge is actually a perception.  Common?  Maybe to those who promote their e-peen via displays of stats and look with disdain on others with lesser stats, believing they are the focus of everyone's attention.  You've presented nothing that shows this so-called knowledge is legitimate information. 

 

There's nothing wrong with presenting an idea and believing you have a solution to what you believe is an issue.  Right or wrong, one idea may inspire more ideas and eventually fruit may come of it, even if it comes from an idea that is actually contrary.  So good show on doing that.   I don't agree with your starting statement at it's origin though as I don't see SPGs as a big deal.  Of all the issues I see that may obstruct this game from further greatness, SPGs are way down the list, and not in a direction you'd agree with.   But I digress. 

 

To the point: your few seconds of delay for SPGs is nonsense.  That's a stake through the heart because they would be reduced to aiming at motionless targets and those are not commonly seen until later in the game.  SPGs might as well not join the game until it's half over.  Flipping to a TD mode for real time data does what?  An SPG bests reacts to a target while in SPG mode.   If an SPG is reacting to a target while in TD mode, likely the target is incoming and that immediately favors the target over the SPG. 

 

Lastly, you want to disagree with any "fine as is" SPG retorts and that's okay.   My response is to remove the SPG limit per battle and let in as many as any other class of vehicles.  The queue of SPGs seems to show that plenty of players want to play, so why should they be limited where other classes are not?   So what if there are 5 SPGs per side or even 7.   Looking back at the days when class limits weren't so limiting, that just means that vehicles like fast moving lights and mediums have less defenders to stop them from advancing and getting to those SPGs.   That would be taking advantage of the situation which is originally how I have my one Burda's Medal, which meant destroying 5 SPGs in a game.   Also, removing the limits would mean that because one battle did fairly well to "flush" the queue of SPGs, that could mean that another battle or other battles would be SPG free.

 

Oh and one more thing that confused me.  You've not played your Hellcat in 4 years you say it did you well then and since?   That sounds like an active declaration or a contrary statement to me.   So just wondering (not accusing) by what do you mean since?  

 

 



the_dude_76 #32 Posted May 16 2019 - 15:01

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View PostMr_FluffyWaffle, on May 15 2019 - 17:17, said:

 

A - I was just taking your exaggeration to the level you presented it at.

I was using hyperbole, I assumed everyone would understand that. And no, you took it to a whole other level. I can back my claim with the fact that only a tiny, tiny, tiny minority of the player base actually takes the time to complain about the game. What do you have to back yours??

B - "Passionate" does not translate to "Obsesses over" and/or "Wants to marry".  Flatly giving a crap beyond your average casual player can be seen as passionate.  People that make content for WoT in all shapes and forms are passionate.  Players that go on the test servers to give legitimate feedback are passionate.  Is it shocking to you that someone might want to improve a video game they spend time enjoying?

Only if you ignore the actual definition of the word...

C - That still doesn't address the concept that everything can be made better.  You're not very insightful if you can type with a straight face you don't have any major complaints.  There's nothing in WoT you'd change?  Even beyond artillery?  Nothing like new player retention, end-game content, credit economy, crew retraining, releasing OP tech lines only to nerf them later, bonds, matchmaking?  Everything is just peachy?

There are a lot of things that I would change if the game were to be molded to my personal desires. But that would "break" the game for others. Can you seriously not grasp this?? Every time they make a major change you get people saying yay, and others saying nay. So no, I don't have any "major" complaints, if I did there are litterally THOUSANDS of good games out there for me to choose from. I don't expect anyone to "break" their game to make it suit me better...

 



Trauglodyte #33 Posted May 16 2019 - 16:07

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View PostMr_FluffyWaffle, on May 15 2019 - 12:05, said:

Artillery is a unit that, 95% of the time, relies on the spotting information gathered by their teammates. Currently, this information is conveyed from the front lines to arty instantaneously. Oftentimes arty will shoot at anything on the map that's both within its gun arc and lit at the same time the moment it's available. This means that even driving a light tank at 60km/hr while spotted is no safety from artillery.  This also means that artillery can have a shell half-way across the map by the time Sixth Sense has gone off for the target.  I've been pondering for a while about arty and how to balance it in a way that isn't just another nerf/buff to the damaging capabilities of the class. Given how arty is played and its role in the game (a sort of "anti-camping" unit), I had an idea: Delay the spotting information Artillery gets while in artillery-view by a few seconds.  Let me explain this mechanic.

 

Artillery's overhead aiming system (arty-view) is the only one of its kind in WoT.  All other tanks get a 3rd-person or gun-barrel orientation that forces them to be in some kind of relative view range of their target.  Arty can see any lit tank on the map clearly, regardless of position.  Their location will also immediately see that tank, and this is where I think a change can be applied.  The trade-off for such a full view of the battlefield should be a delay in when that information is received.  I propose that arty-view (but not artillery's tank-like view) should yield delayed locations of all tanks by just a few seconds.  In layman's terms, artillery will see lit and moving tanks a few seconds behind their legitimate location.  This accomplishes a few things:

 

1) Artillery can still accomplish its anti-camping goals. For this example, let's assume that arty-view is a number of seconds behind the actual locations of all tanks. With this in place, tanks that don't move after being spotted will shortly be "lit in arty-view" and will be made obvious. Any tank that's been stationary the whole time can be shot at, and because they haven't moved they may be classified as "camping". Tanks constantly peeking the same corner or bush will be made obvious and arty can deal with them as well.  It's up to the artillery player to employ more skill to recognize who's likely to be in the same location even with the informational delay.  This mechanic is designed to protect players that want to actively avoid arty by moving. Arty can still do its job of pounding players that stick to one location for too long.

2) Artillery still gets real-time data in TD mode. This one goes almost without saying, but I know a few arty players have now become worried that they'll be rushed by light tanks before they can realize anything. Fortunately for them, TD mode is (obviously) real-time and not arty-view-time. This means they can deal with any close-range problem like any other tank. This also means that arty can swap to TD mode to get an up-to-date minimap, but going to arty-mode will then add the delay to what they're shooting at.

3) Artillery can be "buffed" to combat this nerf. I'm hesitant to list what I think the appropriate buff should be for this section. I'm mostly down for leaving this part to public opinion. Given that this nerf puts arty more in the anti-camping department, I'd suggest giving them higher single-target damage for hitting someone directly. Perhaps more splash damage/radius as well to hit people camping gently behind buildings. What I don't want to see this arty change do is force them to spam shots into Heavy Tank corridors and reap massive numbers.

 

I believe artillery can still be made a decent class that accomplishes the goal of anti-camping, but in its current state it does not. Tanks right now will see 3 artillery players and instead be encouraged to sit snugly behind a large wall to conserve hitpoints and avoid being stunned. Artillery needs to be something that doesn't discourage players from advancing the match progress. It does need to be something that keeps players from holding one location for minutes on end.  

 

Please leave any suggestions on my concept and if I agree enough I may add them in to this OP under an edit.

I disagree with all "artillery is fine as is" posts.

I doubt artillery would ever be removed so the next best thing is finding a way for it to be fair to all.

 

I was actually thinking about this, the other night.  But, I'd argue that it needs to be a game wide application.  There should be, logically, a delay between seeing a target and relaying the information to the team.  We're not psychic so why is the information instantaneous?

 

NOTE:  I'm an arty player so I like it.



SargeanTravis #34 Posted May 16 2019 - 16:28

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View PostMr_FluffyWaffle, on May 15 2019 - 12:05, said:

Artillery is a unit that, 95% of the time, relies on the spotting information gathered by their teammates. Currently, this information is conveyed from the front lines to arty instantaneously. Oftentimes arty will shoot at anything on the map that's both within its gun arc and lit at the same time the moment it's available. This means that even driving a light tank at 60km/hr while spotted is no safety from artillery.  This also means that artillery can have a shell half-way across the map by the time Sixth Sense has gone off for the target.  I've been pondering for a while about arty and how to balance it in a way that isn't just another nerf/buff to the damaging capabilities of the class. Given how arty is played and its role in the game (a sort of "anti-camping" unit), I had an idea: Delay the spotting information Artillery gets while in artillery-view by a few seconds.  Let me explain this mechanic.

 

Artillery's overhead aiming system (arty-view) is the only one of its kind in WoT.  All other tanks get a 3rd-person or gun-barrel orientation that forces them to be in some kind of relative view range of their target.  Arty can see any lit tank on the map clearly, regardless of position.  Their location will also immediately see that tank, and this is where I think a change can be applied.  The trade-off for such a full view of the battlefield should be a delay in when that information is received.  I propose that arty-view (but not artillery's tank-like view) should yield delayed locations of all tanks by just a few seconds.  In layman's terms, artillery will see lit and moving tanks a few seconds behind their legitimate location.  This accomplishes a few things:

 

1) Artillery can still accomplish its anti-camping goals. For this example, let's assume that arty-view is a number of seconds behind the actual locations of all tanks. With this in place, tanks that don't move after being spotted will shortly be "lit in arty-view" and will be made obvious. Any tank that's been stationary the whole time can be shot at, and because they haven't moved they may be classified as "camping". Tanks constantly peeking the same corner or bush will be made obvious and arty can deal with them as well.  It's up to the artillery player to employ more skill to recognize who's likely to be in the same location even with the informational delay.  This mechanic is designed to protect players that want to actively avoid arty by moving. Arty can still do its job of pounding players that stick to one location for too long.

2) Artillery still gets real-time data in TD mode. This one goes almost without saying, but I know a few arty players have now become worried that they'll be rushed by light tanks before they can realize anything. Fortunately for them, TD mode is (obviously) real-time and not arty-view-time. This means they can deal with any close-range problem like any other tank. This also means that arty can swap to TD mode to get an up-to-date minimap, but going to arty-mode will then add the delay to what they're shooting at.

3) Artillery can be "buffed" to combat this nerf. I'm hesitant to list what I think the appropriate buff should be for this section. I'm mostly down for leaving this part to public opinion. Given that this nerf puts arty more in the anti-camping department, I'd suggest giving them higher single-target damage for hitting someone directly. Perhaps more splash damage/radius as well to hit people camping gently behind buildings. What I don't want to see this arty change do is force them to spam shots into Heavy Tank corridors and reap massive numbers.

 

I believe artillery can still be made a decent class that accomplishes the goal of anti-camping, but in its current state it does not. Tanks right now will see 3 artillery players and instead be encouraged to sit snugly behind a large wall to conserve hitpoints and avoid being stunned. Artillery needs to be something that doesn't discourage players from advancing the match progress. It does need to be something that keeps players from holding one location for minutes on end.  

 

Please leave any suggestions on my concept and if I agree enough I may add them in to this OP under an edit.

I disagree with all "artillery is fine as is" posts.

I doubt artillery would ever be removed so the next best thing is finding a way for it to be fair to all.

 

No realtime aiming reticle for shotgun mode because Im already bad at aiming over long ranges to begin with... I'll pass

Simply nerf/remove stun mechanic a lot, and buff damage and splash a lot. Whiners are happy because no stun/gimped stun and arties are happy because they aren't being gimped all the time in terms of damage. Everyone wins :)



Trauglodyte #35 Posted May 16 2019 - 16:43

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As a side not, it is funny to me how little people understand artillery.  Some of the greatest players that complain about artillery the most are also some of the biggest idiots with understanding artillery.  Case in point, I was watching QB on Monday.  He was on the Ice Road, in Mountain Pass, and was pushing north in his tier 10 Light.  He noticed that an SPG was sitting behind a heavy.  Shots get fired, so on and so forth, and then the arty shotgun kills him.  He screams and starts ranting about how the SPG was clearly a stream sniper or something because "his gun was pointing up into the air and then immediately dropped onto me".  THIS, my friends and enemies, is a distinct lack of understanding a very simple game mechanic and it is a massive mistake made by a great and extremely popular player.  Artillery works on a arc basis.  Ergo, if you point out into the horizon, the game will calculate a shell trajectory based upon the distance from the SPG to the aim point.  Normal tanks work in the same manner, for extreme distances.  The second that the reticle gets put onto something close, the SPG gun (and gun of a normal tank) will drop, due to the change in trajectory.  QB was [edited]about a hack/bug/garbage because he's a moron that got sent back to the garage by an SPG that is using a mechanic that is applied to every tank in the game.

 

THIS is the overall problem with people both complaining about artillery and making suggestions to "fix" artillery.  If you don't really know how it works and you don't play it, how do you know what to change when the details are unaware to you?  And, if you're super biased, it makes such things even worse.  THAT SAID, I still like the idea of spotting information delay for everyone in the game, since it adds spice, dimension, and survivibility for players (which is something drastically needed at the low tiers for new players).



scHnuuudle_bop #36 Posted May 16 2019 - 22:53

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View PostTrauglodyte, on May 16 2019 - 16:43, said:

 

THIS is the overall problem with people both complaining about artillery and making suggestions to "fix" artillery.  If you don't really know how it works and you don't play it, how do you know what to change when the details are unaware to you?  And, if you're super biased, it makes such things even worse.  THAT SAID, I still like the idea of spotting information delay for everyone in the game, since it adds spice, dimension, and survivibility for players (which is something drastically needed at the low tiers for new players).

It is like the initial comments of the OP.

Somehow a fast moving vehicle being hit by artillery is horrible.

That someone guesses, fluke or educated, where another vehicle is going to be in 5-6 or now more seconds,  is more remarkable and helpful than given credit for. 

 

It is not a simple leading by a 1/4 to full tank length, some long , by 100M or more. A lot of shots go un-noticed except by the victim. A larger number are total misses, due to RNG and a bad guess or good driving.

 

Surviving the lower tiers, what are you driving?

I tried a clan a while ago. Random battles , my choice , either had people with tier 4 and below, or interested in mentoring. 

In my case anyway, artillery sure had little to do with blow outs. Maybe it was because I had to buy them back and had no crews. 

 

Most, I and any friends encountered was the overall steep learning curve, toxic armchair generals and team killers mixed with occasional seal clubbers.

Other than overcoming that, for many the entertainment is derived from various levels of detail available.


Edited by scHnuuudle_bop, May 16 2019 - 22:54.


Jryder #37 Posted May 17 2019 - 02:59

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View PostDetectiveHoots, on May 15 2019 - 04:44, said:

They should just get rid of them. The math that "20%" of the player base enjoys arty and would be likely to quit if they removed arty from the game is strange. So they'd rather enrage some better part of 80% of the player base, to keep 20% happy? Then you go into something like Frontline and you get spg, airstrike and artillery...  Who ever thought that spgs would be a good idea in this game must have been a masochist.

 

That's how we do things these days-Tyranny of the  Minority.

Mikosah #38 Posted May 17 2019 - 23:26

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View PostAltwar, on May 15 2019 - 09:21, said:

 

I was asking in earnest; nothing coy about my statement. But I don't go about categorizing players in this game either.  I play this game and have a good time. I like to think other players are having a good time too.  I believe that if enjoying the game was a stat, I'd easily be a "blue" or "purple" player in that respect because I'm not that player who grouses over RNG, being low tier, getting outplayed, etc.  I just have a lot of fun.

 

I call the SPG class SPGs because the game does, rather than "arta", or "arty".   I disagree with your assessment of SPGs being a poorly designed gimmick.  I think there are a lot of players in the game who are quite lazy and don't want a game mechanic catching their lazy behavior.  By lazy behavior I mean driving in straight lines.  Parking and staying behind cover because it is "safe" and should be for as long as they are there.  Parking out in the open because it happens to be a good spot to snipe.  That kind of lazy behavior.  ;)

 

To set the record straight, the sheer simplicity of the concept is the least of its problems. And the only reason that it ends up being so simple is because being indirect allows it to be so simple. Positioning? You spawn more or less in the ideal position. Movement? If your team is any good, you'll never need to move. LOS management, armor angling, weakspot knowledge, all of these intrinsic concepts become instantly irrelevant when you can chuck HE indirectly. But like I said, the end result of arta being an easy, cheap thrill is the least of our concerns.

 

The much larger problem is that from a certain point of view, WoT is an exercise in real estate management. In any given map, a large majority of the total square footage is tactically nonviable to any particular tank, especially in the early stage of the match. The remainder is somewhat viable, but only situationally so and odds are that particular situation is infrequent. And that leaves only a tiny remainder of the remainder that's actually useful at a given moment. Or rather, there's only a sparse handful of positions and routes that are ideal, while the rest of the map is simply the wrong place to be. If arta in effect reduces that number even further, then it has not increased the complexity or strategic depth of the match. Quite the contrary, it has only simplified it. And that is the crux of the issue- not that arta gameplay is itself so dumb (though it is), but that it dumbs-down the game for everyone else.



billyzbear #39 Posted May 17 2019 - 23:37

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I think this would be a great idea. I have thought arty should be more like calling in an arty strike in frontlines. As such should have a delay on their target since arty strikes take a few seconds to call in. 

WhineMaker #40 Posted May 18 2019 - 11:16

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View PostMr_FluffyWaffle, on May 15 2019 - 11:17, said:

 

>95% of the people who play the game are 100% fine with every aspect of World of tanks

I find that nearly impossible to believe.  Instead, people with the most passion for a game will always be looking to improve it.

 

 

You're hitting only one example I used and claim it's the only reason I'm here to talk.  

 

Also, I'm not normally one to bring stats into this, but you tossed out newb (lol) so I'll go ahead and do it.  As a green player, you won't get focused by XVM arties nearly as much as a blue/purple like myself and friends.  That's just the way it goes.  

 

It's also clear that you have a very strong bias towards not nerfing artillery, being that 21,807 battles of yours are made up of it.  It's clear that you're not looking at the artillery unit with an open mind at all.  

 

3,579 M53/55 artillery games.

3094 Batchat 155 58 artillery games.

3107 Object 261 artillery games.

 

Did you think I wouldn't look this up?

 

I also don't say that artillery players are the issue - it's how the class functions as a whole.

 

Maybe cut down on the condescending tone and sarcasm, too, bud?  

 

I'm so flattered you took the time to look up my precious stats, something I have never done myself. If you spent the time learning to play the game as designed, maybe you would be a better player and not just someone that complains a portion of the game is too hard for them and needing an easier mode. If you need an easier mode, WoT Blitz is calling your name... :arta:  

 

 

Maybe you have a very strong bias towards nerfing artillery. I won't waste my time looking up your precious stats to confirm where your opinions are based... 

 

...and thanks Mom kiddo, for the advice to be less condescending and sarcastic. I'll take it with a grain of salt...

 

Then again, maybe you should listen to your own advice... :facepalm:

 

  

 

View PostCured_Apathy, on May 15 2019 - 14:01, said:

Frontlines map is very open and there are tons of targets because the map is so open and its easy to click the whole game in arty. Why cant u be constructive almost ever man. You are always so negative lol

 

So having an opinion that is different than yours is considered as non-constructive. I'll make sure to make note of your tantrums and act accordingly in the future... :child: 







Also tagged with Artillery, Rebalance, Nerf, Buff, Arty, SPG, Rework

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