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Because premium ammunition are the problem.


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F1O1 #1 Posted May 17 2019 - 10:37

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https://www.youtube....h?v=YXJt-MLCYXQ

 

There are many examples of this. You can find a tonne. T95. Type 5. Maus, take your pick. 

 

Just drive your heavy lumbering destroyer right across the field, into a swamp. Have 15 enemies, the entire enemy team, shoot at you, from many angles. Survive 4 minutes, of just getting shot at again, and again, and again. And enemies switch to APCR too, didn't seem to help really. Bounce 21,000 damage, without any real attempt or attention to particularly angling your tank armour. Just drive straight towards the direction of those shooting you. ln the process, meet 3rd Mark combined quota, by combining 7K tallied. With no real effort to make the quota in the first place. Block 7 HE shots too for 0 damage,  2 of them 620 dmg Badger rounds, because hey  HE  always does damage right, and why should HE be an alternative to dealing damage. Nothing to see here, please disperse.

 

Premium rounds are the problem, and not this. Premium rounds op - they penetrate my armour, they remove skill. Press 2 and pen me, anywhere, with auto aim, 500m away. But seriously, do carry on, and drive your tank across a field. 

 



jesse098 #2 Posted May 17 2019 - 12:33

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60 battles and your driving a tier ? , time you learn how to play and stop b---ing

F1O1 #3 Posted May 17 2019 - 13:32

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View Postjesse098, on May 17 2019 - 11:33, said:

60 battles and your driving a tier ? , time you learn how to play and stop b---ing

 

80K battles. Not a single, not 1, tier 9 or 10 with 2K avg dmg. Except old waffen, typical. Which is why they removed it, because even someone like you could use it. Not 1 tier 9 or 10, with over 40 games, having at least 50% WR. Not a single 3rd mark, despite 12,000 battles across KV1, Excelsior, Churchill, T1 Heavy, Wolverine. You certainly are a funny guy.

You remind me of those school yard fat bullies, that bully fatter, quiet kids, for being fat.  You  are  lol.

 

 



BadCorps #4 Posted May 17 2019 - 13:42

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T95s and Type 4/5 have weak sides. Maus has a paper plate for the lower glacis. The enemy is f^cking stupid if they can't figure out that moving to find a better shot is the preferred alternative or aiming for a less armoured area without needing gold ammo

Edited by BadCorps, May 17 2019 - 13:43.


RickEdwards #5 Posted May 17 2019 - 16:37

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So, basically what you're saying is that we should keep a mechanic that completely screws over 95% of heavy tanks (as well as some meds that need to used armor, like the E50) instead of simply balancing the few tanks that have armor that is too good... This video was mostly tier 8s shooting a Maus from the front; the two tier 10s that shot gold was like one shot from the badger, which was an unlucky shot, before he switched to HE because he was bad, and the IS-7 spamming at his generally angled front from a long ways away, which is not surprising that he didn't pen since the IS-7 isn't exactly accurate. The Skorp G should have been able to pen his APCR shooting into the front turret at least one time, but he either had bad RNG or simply is a bad player who didn't know to shoot the Maus there. I would also like to point out that the Panther II was penning the Maus with normal AP rounds and the last shot was a Bat-chat with normal APCR shooting a fairly angled side from probably at least 400 m away. A tier 10 in a 3-5-7 mm game (with no arty) is generally going to do well regardless of what tank they are in, especially if the enemy team is that incompetent. Especially that Badger; if he had any brain cells at all, we would have penned almost every shot on the Maus with his 320 pen APCR.

 

Prem ammo is at least as OP as Maus, Type 5, etc. armor and I'm sure there are many occasions where there is someone who sat in the back spamming prem ammo and every shot he penned would have bounced normal ammo, and ended the game with 7000 combined or more undeserved damage. Superheavy armor and Prem ammo are both OP and both need to be nerfed.



F1O1 #6 Posted May 17 2019 - 23:22

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View PostRickEdwards, on May 17 2019 - 15:37, said:

So, basically what you're saying is that we should keep a mechanic that completely screws over 95% of heavy tanks (as well as some meds that need to used armor, like the E50) instead of simply balancing the few tanks that have armor that is too good... This video was mostly tier 8s shooting a Maus from the front; the two tier 10s that shot gold was like one shot from the badger, which was an unlucky shot, before he switched to HE because he was bad, and the IS-7 spamming at his generally angled front from a long ways away, which is not surprising that he didn't pen since the IS-7 isn't exactly accurate. The Skorp G should have been able to pen his APCR shooting into the front turret at least one time, but he either had bad RNG or simply is a bad player who didn't know to shoot the Maus there. I would also like to point out that the Panther II was penning the Maus with normal AP rounds and the last shot was a Bat-chat with normal APCR shooting a fairly angled side from probably at least 400 m away. A tier 10 in a 3-5-7 mm game (with no arty) is generally going to do well regardless of what tank they are in, especially if the enemy team is that incompetent. Especially that Badger; if he had any brain cells at all, we would have penned almost every shot on the Maus with his 320 pen APCR.

 

Prem ammo is at least as OP as Maus, Type 5, etc. armor and I'm sure there are many occasions where there is someone who sat in the back spamming prem ammo and every shot he penned would have bounced normal ammo, and ended the game with 7000 combined or more undeserved damage. Superheavy armor and Prem ammo are both OP and both need to be nerfed.

 

Badger fired more than 1 APCR. Which is why he switched to HE. Even if a bad, at 500m his shots won't go where wanted

Skorp G has a tier X gun, same as Maus. Used APCR rounds. Same with lS7.

Conway is bouncing off with tier X gun standard, 260 AP. 

 

E50 does not get penetrated through the glacis hull, as it is extremely weak lower hull and turret

The video future loads of enemies attacking him through the sides. Somua, Lowe, Panther ll, Bat Chat

Panther ll had 1 AP penetration, shooting at the Maus near 90' perpendicular from him, coming from Lake side. Panther ll was bouncing AP and HE otherwise  (295  0  dmg hit)

 

Accuracy can't be counted on, to place your shot where you want it. Not a 300m, nevermind 500m

For instance, if you were shooting at T-10 or WZ111 sides. You aim low, so you hit the flat 80mm through tracks. lnstead your shot veers high, and you either hit the black hole absorbing spaced armour panel and sloped armour, or you hit the highly sloped 120mm upper sides beneath turret, or side of turret. Mostly, all of the above bounce 175 AP Pen from a T34-100 / lS tank / T-34-1 / SU12244  to which the side of lower sides wouldn't. But people would aim at the lower sides, not the others. 

 

This shows us clearly:

-- Pressing 2 isn't auto-pen. Pressing to can certainly open up new spots to shoot at, like Type 4 and 5 frontal armour, E100 turret, Jag panzer superstructure.  But you generally need to still aim your shots. For example, not aiming properly, and you can hit Type 4/5 glacis ramp  (lessons that even simpleton things like KV4 and Tiger P teach you)  which is auto-bounce. Shoulders, when met frontally, auto-bounce. Turret sides and gun square, auto-bounce. E100, well you do not want to shoot the gun mantle. Which takes a large part of the turret, same with jag panzer. You can have all the pen in the world and it would not work. Gold rounds don't help much against obj 263, especially since 9.21 re-model HD, unless you want more consistency through the tiny flat section beneath superstructure separating engine platform and superstructure, or feathering a shot through gun mantle. Both small sections. Gold rounds won't help much against Badger, unless you have 395 HEAT, or just using gold for consistency against lower hull (some parts of lower hull bump up to 197mm) 

 

-- Not all tanks are to blame, some get victimized. But a few are running rampant are too armoured. Bobject, 260, 279E, lS7, both Types, T95, Badger, 263, Maus, E75, VK4502PB, object 705s. l am willing to bet, lS4 and E100 join the club after 2019 changes. l am willing to forgive T95, because of the vastly slow crawl it moves at, but not the others. Even a Tortoise (nearly +2 HP/T)  is mobile enough, has a basic half turret with a wide-span 20' / 20' arc and -10 gun depression, to land itself into action and it just has too much armour. 113, Super conquer, FV4201 l consider borderline, but their lower hulls are much weaker than the rest, so fine  (AKA vulnerable to sub-200 Pen AP, not 225 like the others)  Object 430U, T54 are bad apples for meds, same with T-22. And unfortunately, bad apples spread a bad rap, and this reputation ends up being directed towards numerous enemies faced, not just where premium ammunition is really required. 

 

-- Armour profile changes when high explosive are used. As you can see, high explosive can do 0 damage, or the next time Badger can deal 295 damage. Panther ll does 109 l think once, with HE, yet other times it and Pershing deal 295 / 320 HE  0 damage crit hits. This is unacceptable. Lemmingrush has a good video available, Fishermans bay, testing 420 dmg HE vs VK7201. lnstead of Badger dealing 295, or 0 from a 620 dmg rd, how about 81-135 threshold, for minimum damage. Removes the high dmg splashes, like 295 which is a definite change of armour profile, removes the 0 damage crit, a definite instance of unfair bullying. 

 

-- True premium round motives. Though not all occurrences, most of the time premium ammunition is loathed, is because of spam. Whether needless or not. Or a medium tank brawling a heavy, which l still believe the heavy has the advantage, unless you are a newly nerfed Type 4 or 5 against an armoured med that will splash HESH.  So that doesn't matter. This just leaves a bad taste in certain peoples mouth, and very likely the victim looks up the assailant after battle. And sees whatever, 60% WR, 10K PR, and just blows his or her top off.  ''Oh this no skill -------, only good because of premium rounds.''  You cannot say anything further from the truth. These people firstly aren't good, because of premium rounds, because many had accounts 11-12' to which prem rounds still only cost gold, and not many were insane enough to use those in pubs. So these people got good, WlTHOUT prem rounds in their arsenal. So like a double sided coin, l am quite sure, that evidently WG has decided gold spam, good players, are co-related. And this needs to be restricted, just like the very old example of VK3601, people buying APCR for real gold and using 221 pen 165 dmg  13.04 RoF Konisch gun, in tier 6 and attacking tier 9 tanks (+3/-3 MM at the time)  by the way thats like 75+ DPM over T3485M and Cromwell, put into perspective. But the people doing this? Weren't scrubs, no they were good players. Because a scrub would hardly even know it existed, nevermind use, nevermind even pay to use. So WG noticed this, like any self governing body would, and removed it. This is clearly another attempt, to level the playing field.

 

-- lf prem rounds need nerfs, and perhaps they do, perhaps they don't - it needs to be done with baby steps. lt is clear, WG has a quite bad balance department, and super testers aren't worth much of anything. Take small steps. Why enormously buff Maus, to nerf it later. Why do it with T110E5, to nerf it later. Why release something like bobject, to nerf it later. Do they not understand their game?  Baby steps. lncrease premium ammunition cost, 1.75x the price. Reduce premium shell capacity, to 40% shells allowed. Lower the muzzle velocity of later tier HEAT, which seems to speed up instead of slow down, for instance HEAT should be like E100 or lS3A or Rhm or 112/WZ111/T-34-3....not like M56 scorp, 59-patton, SU130PM, TS5. Decrease the penetration of HEAT by a larger breadth when striking spaced armour. Decrease APCR pen when smashing through map obstacles, as they are lighter faster projectiles. All these examples could be tried first

 

- Reducing 25% RNG, making +1/-1 MM spread go both a long way to reducing gold round usage

 

- Accuracy changes, making it more dependable for tanks with solid accuracy

 



RickEdwards #7 Posted May 18 2019 - 01:38

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E 50/E 50 M gets screw by prem ammo; yes normal can pen the flat front turret, but HEAT can pen both the flat front AND the angled sides of the turret from straight on. It is also easily penned in its upperhull when high tier prem is shot at it.

 

Very few people say that it is auto-pen, but it definitely gives an advantage for no real cost in game. Type 4/5 with prem are laughably easy to pen; you CAN hit the ramp part, but that is small compared to everywhere else, which is flat aan basically auto-pen to tier 10 prem. The Badger is one of those tanks that is basically just bad; sure, if it can hide its underhull you can't really pen it, but then you can just go somewhere else since it is roughly the speed of a snail, draw backs for its decent armor, since things need to have drawbacks as well as advantages, you know, unlike prem ammo, which has no real drawbacks.

 

I've said this before, the Maus and Type 5 are both bad examples when talking about how prem ammo is needed, since they were both buffed as a direct result of prem spam making them bad.

 

Limiting the amount per tank could work, but using a percentage is a bad idea, since some tanks have huge ammo reserves. It would probably be better to make it a certain amount of average damage, like 2000ish or something. So E-100 would get like 3 and an RU med would get like 7 or so. Making spaced armor more effective (or truly effective in the first place) would be good as well. Those are both good possibilities, but they will basically have the same effect in the end as compared to just reducing the alpha or prem, which is people doing less damage with prem ammo per game.


Edited by RickEdwards, May 18 2019 - 01:40.


Cheshil #8 Posted May 18 2019 - 09:26

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Disagreed. a 15%-25% decrease in premium alpha damage would solve everything. Obviously there would have to be some changes to come along with it.

Namely, here are a few:

1. Low penetration premium rounds should have a slight pen increase to make the shells not so worthless. (type4/5, AMX 51/54 ETC.)

2. Super heavies might need less hitpoints, tanks like the 705A will need some kind of weakspot while sidescraping.

3. Tier 1-7 tanks need to have higher standard or premium penetration. +2mm for these tiers is just too much with these joke guns, not to mention the stock guns in +2.

4. Premium ammunition needs to be almost as cheap as standard ammunition. (obviously.) This will get rid of half the pay-to-win that is currently in the game, making the ammunition a viable choice for people low on credits. (you still earn less credits than firing AP)



F1O1 #9 Posted May 18 2019 - 13:17

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View PostRickEdwards, on May 18 2019 - 00:38, said:

E 50/E 50 M gets screw by prem ammo; yes normal can pen the flat front turret, but HEAT can pen both the flat front AND the angled sides of the turret from straight on. It is also easily penned in its upperhull when high tier prem is shot at it.

 

Very few people say that it is auto-pen, but it definitely gives an advantage for no real cost in game. Type 4/5 with prem are laughably easy to pen; you CAN hit the ramp part, but that is small compared to everywhere else, which is flat aan basically auto-pen to tier 10 prem. The Badger is one of those tanks that is basically just bad; sure, if it can hide its underhull you can't really pen it, but then you can just go somewhere else since it is roughly the speed of a snail, draw backs for its decent armor, since things need to have drawbacks as well as advantages, you know, unlike prem ammo, which has no real drawbacks.

 

I've said this before, the Maus and Type 5 are both bad examples when talking about how prem ammo is needed, since they were both buffed as a direct result of prem spam making them bad.

 

Limiting the amount per tank could work, but using a percentage is a bad idea, since some tanks have huge ammo reserves. It would probably be better to make it a certain amount of average damage, like 2000ish or something. So E-100 would get like 3 and an RU med would get like 7 or so. Making spaced armor more effective (or truly effective in the first place) would be good as well. Those are both good possibilities, but they will basically have the same effect in the end as compared to just reducing the alpha or prem, which is people doing less damage with prem ammo per game.

 

Type 4 and 5 still have alot of Red on a Live model, with E100 334mm HEAT. Type 4, nevermind type 5, glacis ramp is 572mm HEAT effective, meaning it bounces out VK7201 and 121B HEAT easy. Type 5 is even thicker. 

 

The goal of frontal armour, to promote healthy gameplay, isn't to have immunity to frontal attack. lt is to ward away auto-aim, and force people to aim. lt is to provide a means for lower tiers, to even aim at a target they otherwise would not be able to penetrate. For instance, E100 roof view bar, or Jag panzer MG FF cupola. T110E5 or FV215B cupola. All these tanks have lower plate weakness, and superstructure weakness, so you can shoot them high or low. Same with 113 and Lewando. But lS7 and T110E3 don't have these provided. Same with Badger. You can shoot them low, or forget it. lf you are a Jag panzer, sure you can shoot at lS7 or E3 with HEAT, but not many tanks are jag panzer. lf war gaming is so keen to do this, proofing their designs from premium attack, they should do so with all their designs. Not just the designs they please. To maintain a balanced game. FV183 and Fochs should be like object 268 V 4, hardened vs frontal attack. Tiger ll and VK4502A and KV4 should be like oho and chrysler and 252. lt is as if WG offices, lights are on only in some rooms, while others are pitch black and dusty, covered in webs. The game is horribly out of balance, and premium ammunition isn't the big problem in this picture. 

 

This argument happens again and again. Where you argue no real disadvantage of A) versus the stock B). Premium consumables do the same thing. Whereas you argue premium consumables don't change armour profiles, well, they do. They remove 113 frontal armour fuel lines burn chance, because of passive fire chance removal. They remove German and American 20% engine burn chance, because of passive fire chance removal. T95 with large repair kit repairs its tracks insanely fast, that even something like Cent A X can't perm-track it. Strv with directives, hides better than neighbour Strv without them. And camo is everything for those. These things DO lMPACT THE GAME, and do provide advantage, and do enhance survivability the same way as an opposite, to which premium rounds increase penetrability. And there is no way to balance these items. What can possibility be done, remove auto fire extinguishers ability to fight fire? Remove Large kits ability to heal people or repair modules? Means to an end. lf premium ammunition takes a DPM nerf, the only way to balance premium consumables, is to make them cost gold again. So people will be reluctant to pay real cash for them, for their advantage. 

 

Heavy tanks will always have the upperhand when it comes to engagements and brawling, unless a very open campy map. Even if med tanks have DPM and are spamming gold. Med tanks still have to aim @ heavy tanks, heavy tanks don't really have to aim at meds. That is why med tanks don't overpopulate clan wars. Despite 430U replacing 113 outright, teams aren't 15  430U. Because super conquer, FV4201, obj 260, WZ1115A, 277 will beat 430U or 907. Med tanks with their rather acceptable armour plates, have them only in  key areas unlike heavies having it liberally, these holes mean M53/M55 and Conquer GC outrageously splash them for more damage and longer stuns. This argument is fallacy. lt is borne from crappers in a heavy tank, complaining an ace in a med is besting them, because they suck and think they should auto-win because their heavy is in a city, and med is not in a field. Only a pomegranate bad complains about being beaten by an opponent, because the opponent resorted to premium ammunition. Not about position, favourable trades, track+damage, sharing HP, hulldown, double bushing, Etc. lt is that,  '''Oh this noob just gold rounded me to death''' 

 

 



ElOtroViejo #10 Posted May 18 2019 - 17:08

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Prem ammo IS a balancing problem and can be proved using math, as someone says reducing its alpha will fix it. Some TD will not be able to easily pen in the front so? whats the problem it should be flanked, that is one of the class advantages, they dont have a turret and that compensates. This is the typical post that is usually maid by medium tanks players whining that they can't pen like they want to

ElOtroViejo #11 Posted May 18 2019 - 17:12

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It is the old battle of a pure tactical game vs a game where you need strategy and tactics to win. Some tier X heavies have its problems too, some too fast, some spot too much, tier X needs far more class separation, or it becomes boring, all using same tanks every game

RickEdwards #12 Posted May 18 2019 - 18:14

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View PostF1O1, on May 18 2019 - 13:17, said:

 

Type 4 and 5 still have alot of Red on a Live model, with E100 334mm HEAT. Type 4, nevermind type 5, glacis ramp is 572mm HEAT effective, meaning it bounces out VK7201 and 121B HEAT easy. Type 5 is even thicker. 

 

The goal of frontal armour, to promote healthy gameplay, isn't to have immunity to frontal attack. lt is to ward away auto-aim, and force people to aim. lt is to provide a means for lower tiers, to even aim at a target they otherwise would not be able to penetrate. For instance, E100 roof view bar, or Jag panzer MG FF cupola. T110E5 or FV215B cupola. All these tanks have lower plate weakness, and superstructure weakness, so you can shoot them high or low. Same with 113 and Lewando. But lS7 and T110E3 don't have these provided. Same with Badger. You can shoot them low, or forget it. lf you are a Jag panzer, sure you can shoot at lS7 or E3 with HEAT, but not many tanks are jag panzer. lf war gaming is so keen to do this, proofing their designs from premium attack, they should do so with all their designs. Not just the designs they please. To maintain a balanced game. FV183 and Fochs should be like object 268 V 4, hardened vs frontal attack. Tiger ll and VK4502A and KV4 should be like oho and chrysler and 252. lt is as if WG offices, lights are on only in some rooms, while others are pitch black and dusty, covered in webs. The game is horribly out of balance, and premium ammunition isn't the big problem in this picture. 

 

This argument happens again and again. Where you argue no real disadvantage of A) versus the stock B). Premium consumables do the same thing. Whereas you argue premium consumables don't change armour profiles, well, they do. They remove 113 frontal armour fuel lines burn chance, because of passive fire chance removal. They remove German and American 20% engine burn chance, because of passive fire chance removal. T95 with large repair kit repairs its tracks insanely fast, that even something like Cent A X can't perm-track it. Strv with directives, hides better than neighbour Strv without them. And camo is everything for those. These things DO lMPACT THE GAME, and do provide advantage, and do enhance survivability the same way as an opposite, to which premium rounds increase penetrability. And there is no way to balance these items. What can possibility be done, remove auto fire extinguishers ability to fight fire? Remove Large kits ability to heal people or repair modules? Means to an end. lf premium ammunition takes a DPM nerf, the only way to balance premium consumables, is to make them cost gold again. So people will be reluctant to pay real cash for them, for their advantage. 

 

Heavy tanks will always have the upperhand when it comes to engagements and brawling, unless a very open campy map. Even if med tanks have DPM and are spamming gold. Med tanks still have to aim @ heavy tanks, heavy tanks don't really have to aim at meds. That is why med tanks don't overpopulate clan wars. Despite 430U replacing 113 outright, teams aren't 15  430U. Because super conquer, FV4201, obj 260, WZ1115A, 277 will beat 430U or 907. Med tanks with their rather acceptable armour plates, have them only in  key areas unlike heavies having it liberally, these holes mean M53/M55 and Conquer GC outrageously splash them for more damage and longer stuns. This argument is fallacy. lt is borne from crappers in a heavy tank, complaining an ace in a med is besting them, because they suck and think they should auto-win because their heavy is in a city, and med is not in a field. Only a pomegranate bad complains about being beaten by an opponent, because the opponent resorted to premium ammunition. Not about position, favourable trades, track+damage, sharing HP, hulldown, double bushing, Etc. lt is that,  '''Oh this noob just gold rounded me to death''' 

 

 

 

I have never defended the armor of the Types or Maus; I have always said they need nerfs as well, since they are exactly as overpowered as prem ammo is.

 

I agree, premium consumables should be nerfed as well; however, they do not have as big of an impact on games and are not as big of a problem as prem ammo, so they can be put off longer.

 

Clan wars sees the use of mostly mobile heavies with high dpm. That is because armor is largely useless because of prem ammo, beyond a few key locations where you can have something like an T110E3 or a few super heavies hold a choke point. The heavies beat the meds in the context of CW not because of their armor, but because of their increased HP while still generally retaining the same, or similar, dpm. The higher alpha helps as well, since a group can more easily instantly kill a single tank; WZs will kill a heavy with 5 shots instead of 7 or 8; so a group of 5 heavies can take a gun out instantly, where you need a good deal more meds, and that tank being taken out instantly gives a massive advantage. The 430U does have high alpha, but the less HP makes it take one less hit to kill.

 

And about the positioning stuff; yeah, positioning is more important, but there is not much you can do when a T57 heavy yolos you to dump his HEAT clip into the upperhull of your heavy and pens every shot. Even if he dies, he still did the majority of your HP when he deserved to do none. Or when a T110E4 shoots an APCR through the gun mantle of your hulled down heavy in a very good position. Prem ammo is all about making good positioning less important, so I find it ironic that you would use that as an argument for prem ammo.



F1O1 #13 Posted May 18 2019 - 22:48

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You see a difference here? Because l do, l see alot more Red with one class vs the other. Clans try not to use WZ1115A and object 277 anymore, well notable clans. Because people have object 260 and FV4201. ln the not so notable clans, sure they can afford to use second rate things. Because object 260 and 4201 are so good themselves, they make the next best second rate. Super conquer too, as 4201 provides that service, while also being a fast heavy.

 

You cannot auto-aim an FV4201 or object 260. lf you do, you will bounce. This is with 340mm HEAT. You can auto-aim an object 907A. Are these heavy tanks played, because of armour? No, they are played because of many things. And an armour advantage is one of them. 

 

Posted Image

 

 

 

 



ElOtroViejo #14 Posted May 19 2019 - 07:57

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View PostF1O1, on May 18 2019 - 13:17, said:

 

 

Heavy tanks will always have the upperhand when it comes to engagements and brawling, unless a very open campy map. Even if med tanks have DPM and are spamming gold. Med tanks still have to aim @ heavy tanks, heavy tanks don't really have to aim at meds. That is why med tanks don't overpopulate clan wars. Despite 430U replacing 113 outright, teams aren't 15  430U. Because super conquer, FV4201, obj 260, WZ1115A, 277 will beat 430U or 907. Med tanks with their rather acceptable armour plates, have them only in  key areas unlike heavies having it liberally, these holes mean M53/M55 and Conquer GC outrageously splash them for more damage and longer stuns. This argument is fallacy. lt is borne from crappers in a heavy tank, complaining an ace in a med is besting them, because they suck and think they should auto-win because their heavy is in a city, and med is not in a field. Only a pomegranate bad complains about being beaten by an opponent, because the opponent resorted to premium ammunition. Not about position, favourable trades, track+damage, sharing HP, hulldown, double bushing, Etc. lt is that,  '''Oh this noob just gold rounded me to death''' 

 

 

 

Have you played FrontLine? all same tier, play it with prem ammo in meds, you will pen heavies every single shot, from the distance, from whatever position you want. Heavies cannot compensate from prem ammo, they don't have prem armor, or prem engine or prem manouver. Tanks cannot be well balanced with current premium, as it is better in every way possible (even in speed), cause if the tanks is well balanced with prem then is underpowered with regular ammo, if it is well balanced with regular ammo, then it is overpowered with premium, math is math and is not a matter of opinion. Then you can argue that some armors should be rebalanced, and that can be right, but that don't invalidate a prem ammo problem. For me the classes should be more distinct from each other as they are in lower tiers, so they have its role, so strategy and position will have a role also. But probably that will lead to some positional problems on the maps and people begins to whine again and that is because maps and map scale are not Ok, maps should be larger, and tanks smaller compared to terrain as they ar in WT



F1O1 #15 Posted May 19 2019 - 12:39

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View PostElOtroViejo, on May 19 2019 - 06:57, said:

 

Have you played FrontLine? all same tier, play it with prem ammo in meds, you will pen heavies every single shot, from the distance, from whatever position you want. Heavies cannot compensate from prem ammo, they don't have prem armor, or prem engine or prem maneuver. Tanks cannot be well balanced with current premium, as it is better in every way possible (even in speed), cause if the tanks is well balanced with prem then is underpowered with regular ammo, if it is well balanced with regular ammo, then it is overpowered with premium, math is math and is not a matter of opinion. Then you can argue that some armors should be rebalanced, and that can be right, but that don't invalidate a prem ammo problem. For me the classes should be more distinct from each other as they are in lower tiers, so they have its role, so strategy and position will have a role also. But probably that will lead to some positional problems on the maps and people begins to whine again and that is because maps and map scale are not Ok, maps should be larger, and tanks smaller compared to terrain as they ar in WT

 

l play frontlines. And l know for sure you will not penetrate heavy tanks every shot as premium. Not even with Pershing 268 Pen APCR, probably best in class. Or object 416 330 HEAT, which can still fail against certain targets or no-no spots on tanks. Now l know you have no clue, because you are talking about penetrations from any position, with certain heavy tanks being quite impenetrable when in certain position. Not even at close ranges will every shot penetrate, nevermind 200m away, which isn't even long range. Accuracy is terribly implemented in this game, unreliable to say the least. And then there is 25% RNG, where your 268 APCR rolls 210mm Pen, and then won't even penetrate a T32. 

 

Heavy tanks have armour working all the time. Med tanks really don't. While heavy tanks cannot buy armour like someone purchases premium, heavy tanks can rightfully ANGLE their armour to increase or unknowingly decrease it. That is why casual, inexperienced, novice players do well in armoured tanks. lt isn't an activated skill that needs constant brain power, armour is passive and always working. But skills like anticipation, flanking, camo - these things need constant supervision. 

 

 



ElOtroViejo #16 Posted May 19 2019 - 20:15

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View PostF1O1, on May 19 2019 - 12:39, said:

 

l play frontlines. And l know for sure you will not penetrate heavy tanks every shot as premium. Not even with Pershing 268 Pen APCR, probably best in class. Or object 416 330 HEAT, which can still fail against certain targets or no-no spots on tanks. Now l know you have no clue, because you are talking about penetrations from any position, with certain heavy tanks being quite impenetrable when in certain position. Not even at close ranges will every shot penetrate, nevermind 200m away, which isn't even long range. Accuracy is terribly implemented in this game, unreliable to say the least. And then there is 25% RNG, where your 268 APCR rolls 210mm Pen, and then won't even penetrate a T32. 

 

Heavy tanks have armour working all the time. Med tanks really don't. While heavy tanks cannot buy armour like someone purchases premium, heavy tanks can rightfully ANGLE their armour to increase or unknowingly decrease it. That is why casual, inexperienced, novice players do well in armoured tanks. lt isn't an activated skill that needs constant brain power, armour is passive and always working. But skills like anticipation, flanking, camo - these things need constant supervision. 

 

 

 

Firs who you think you are telling me I have no clue???, try 54mod1, progeto, type 59, not every single shot?, well say 90-95% of the time, when you aim well unless they were just hiding behind a rock or turreting, like most mediums could do aswell, if they are more or less in the open, u can pen them reliably in any angle if you know where to aim, accuracy is better too(specially with apcr)  due to ammo speed increase, mediums has their manouverability all the time, and speed too, as heavies has its armor. We can argue this for eons, but there is something that is undeniable, u load prem you will reliably have better results than with regular as it is better in every aspect, so YOU CANT BALANCE AGAINST TOO DIFFERENT NUMBERS, if you balance for Prem then regular is underpowered, if you balance for regular then prem is overpowered, that is because prem hits better cause is faster, harder because its pen, with more damage, even if their nominal is the same, cause its pen again, and with more accuracy/reaction because of ammo speed, then the problem arises from simple math.

RickEdwards #17 Posted May 20 2019 - 04:46

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View PostF1O1, on May 18 2019 - 22:48, said:

You see a difference here? Because l do, l see alot more Red with one class vs the other. Clans try not to use WZ1115A and object 277 anymore, well notable clans. Because people have object 260 and FV4201. ln the not so notable clans, sure they can afford to use second rate things. Because object 260 and 4201 are so good themselves, they make the next best second rate. Super conquer too, as 4201 provides that service, while also being a fast heavy.

 

You cannot auto-aim an FV4201 or object 260. lf you do, you will bounce. This is with 340mm HEAT. You can auto-aim an object 907A. Are these heavy tanks played, because of armour? No, they are played because of many things. And an armour advantage is one of them. 

 

Posted Image

 

 

 

 

 

The angles you have on these heavies is way too low; this would represent the armor if you were shooting at the tanks from your hull. However, since turrets are elevated above hulls, the angles are shot slightly from above, which makes the red of the upper hulls into yellows with at least a 50% pen chance. This is also from straight on in the front, which rarely happens in an actual fight; if you angle any of these tanks slightly (especially the 260 with its pike nose), there is a whole lot of green on them. Even more, if you put the Obj. 907 angled slightly like that, the hull has pretty much the same amount of green and yellow as the 260.

Edited by RickEdwards, May 20 2019 - 04:47.


F1O1 #18 Posted May 20 2019 - 15:36

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They are not too low. Putting them low weakens their armour anyway, not sure what you are trying to say. That l put them too high, and made them stronger? No. I put them as if they were faced by another fast heavy. 907 is shorter than a heavy, heavy tanks shoot down into them, reducing their armour.

 

I am not going to argue over this. If you auto aim a tank, you can't hope to hit the near side of a pike shape. Auto aim never does what you want. But you can auto aim a 907. 907 doesn't auto aim heavy tanks, maybe except 277. No one auto aims pike tanks. I never see penetrations on pike tanks upper hulls in CW or Adv, it is extremely situational. Sort of like seeing a pen on Maus upper hull, when enemies shoot down on it from elevated spots. Situational

 

But every game CW, you bet, I see people with damage blocked and non pens themselves. I wouldn't have to listen to execs yelling at people to pen their shots. Which is why 907 is falling out of favour for 430U. As a 113, it is harder to auto aim and hit. If you force your foe to aim, you lower DPM. And that's a winning strat

 

Armour still exists. Just need a brain to use it. Is it a guarantee, in its use? Of course not, but causing foes to aim, is what you hope to achieve, hence lowering faced DPM

 

The amount of times l see Ol ricochet or stop 177 APCR, 194 APCR, 202 APCR from crom, T3485, Type 64 is ridiculous. 



RickEdwards #19 Posted May 20 2019 - 18:48

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You're argument seems to be that tanks will bounce auto-aim shots. No one has disputed this is any way. If anyone is auto aiming in a competitive game mode (is or any game mode tbh), they are bad. Aiming could lower dpm if you had to aim for something small like a weak spot, but you don't when you use prem; with prem, you just need to hit a part that's not the ultra strong part, like most gun mantles and things like that. If you are not seeing pens into the pike noses of 260s, then the people you're playing with need to learn how angles work in this game; the pike nose is ridiculously easy to penetrate when the tank is angled and prem is used. All pike noses are like that, even without prem being used they're rather weak. The main things looked for in competitive tanks are dpm, hp amount, and Speed; the only time armor is cared about at all is when you can either use hull down positions with something like an S. Conqueror/new FV tank, or when the armor is just as OP as prem ammo, like Maus/Type/E3.

F1O1 #20 Posted May 21 2019 - 12:05

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Let me see. Top 20 CW in pts from last season. Top 10 CL in weighted PR more than half the clan 9,000+ PR. 4 accumulated reward vehicles. 

What would l possibly know about clan wars, the gameplay, or tier 10 tanks, and where to penetrate them.

And the people / clans l, we, have played aren't bad. They win reward tanks too, come in top pages of past season results, Etc. 

 

 






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