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Copacetic #41 Posted Jul 23 2019 - 13:13

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View Post__WarChild__, on May 31 2019 - 18:41, said:

 

I did a thread a long time ago about Un-Winnable Rates (games that cannot be won).  Man, did people get upset over the concept that there are games out there that just couldn't be won.  The simple fact is, if MM doesn't give you the opportunity to win, you're not going to no matter how good you are.

I got a pools medal yesterday, I was the sole survivor. I don't know what the 'chance to win was' I don't have xvm, maybe my team sucked, but we still won, I just had to kill 10 tanks to do it. MM puts 15 on 15 that's where its job ends. Rest is up to the players, when the bell tolls no game starts unwinnable.



MacDaddyMatty #42 Posted Jul 24 2019 - 15:56

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SBMM = socialism.

No thanks.



cthulhu_hunter #43 Posted Jul 24 2019 - 19:34

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View PostRichardNoggin_dy07, on May 31 2019 - 17:11, said:

Its long over due for some skill based match making. this last year I have noticed most every game is a landslide one way or the other.

base it on a xvm scale into 3 groups


 

1.  red- orange players

2. yellow -green players

3. blue purple and the bots and ai  accounts that didn't make it to group 1


 

when a battle starts and 1 team has over half red players and the other team has no less than yellow players.. can anyone tell me the outcome..  landslide after landslide... ... haven't seen a " close game"  in months.. its not the matching of tier vehicles as much as it is matching the skill of the team.


 

because you know, everyone wants all their teammates to have 50k battles and wn8's of 500 or less. and the double digit teammates with 10's of thousands of battles really help out a lot in a pinch!

 

 


 

personally I would " PAY" for this type of match making, and a lot of others have stated the same. As well as be willing to wait longer que times for a much more matched team and opponent team.


Awesome idea! But sadly, will never happen. Game is based on imbalance and having battles as short as possible. SBMM would make battles too fair and long time wise. Of course, all that reply to this and don't want SBMM are most likely unicums and pro players. They don't want SBMM because then they can't stat pad and seal club poor players for their high rates.



cthulhu_hunter #44 Posted Jul 24 2019 - 19:36

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View Post__WarChild__, on May 31 2019 - 17:41, said:

 

I did a thread a long time ago about Un-Winnable Rates (games that cannot be won).  Man, did people get upset over the concept that there are games out there that just couldn't be won.  The simple fact is, if MM doesn't give you the opportunity to win, you're not going to no matter how good you are.


Nailed it my friend!



leeuniverse #45 Posted Jul 25 2019 - 00:31

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View PostMacDaddyMatty, on Jul 24 2019 - 07:56, said:

SBMM = socialism.

No thanks.

 

LOL...  No it doesn't!

 

SBMM = Pro Football teams playing against each other.  There's still considerable variance, but things are fair and equal.

The current MM is often like putting a Pro Team against a Pee Wee Team.

 

That's not a proper game.

 

The MM at a basic start needs to simply balancing each team with the SAME # of SIMILAR Skilled players.  Period.

If there's 4 Unicorns, each side get's two.  If there's 6 Blues, each side get's 3, etc. etc.



Avalon304 #46 Posted Jul 25 2019 - 01:43

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View Postleeuniverse, on Jul 24 2019 - 16:31, said:

 

LOL...  No it doesn't!

 

SBMM = Pro Football teams playing against each other.  There's still considerable variance, but things are fair and equal.

The current MM is often like putting a Pro Team against a Pee Wee Team.

 

That's not a proper game.

 

The MM at a basic start needs to simply balancing each team with the SAME # of SIMILAR Skilled players.  Period.

If there's 4 Unicorns, each side get's two.  If there's 6 Blues, each side get's 3, etc. etc.

 

No its more like assing 30 people a number between 1 and 30 putting them into a hat and picking out 15 of them without knowing the relative skill of the player associated with that number. Its random. Its how it works. It doesnt see skill. It doesnt stack the teams. It picks 30 random people and divides them in half.



Copacetic #47 Posted Jul 25 2019 - 02:24

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View Post__WarChild__, on May 31 2019 - 18:41, said:

 

I did a thread a long time ago about Un-Winnable Rates (games that cannot be won).  Man, did people get upset over the concept that there are games out there that just couldn't be won.  The simple fact is, if MM doesn't give you the opportunity to win, you're not going to no matter how good you are.

so what, there are plenty that are



NeatoMan #48 Posted Jul 25 2019 - 02:30

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View Postleeuniverse, on Jul 23 2019 - 03:44, said:

Let's say the "average" of ALL of the ABOVE is 3-5% in contributing to reducing "steamrolls" and/or the quick death?  (there was like 12 per the above threads)

Then fixing them all would reduce steamrolls anywhere between 36%-60%.

 

Do you all think that wouldn't make a HUGE difference in game quality of life?

What makes you think they will all add independently like that?  What makes you so sure they will each average a 3-5% reduction?



Hellsfog #49 Posted Jul 25 2019 - 02:39

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View PostNeatoMan, on Jul 24 2019 - 20:30, said:

What makes you think they will all add independently like that?  What makes you so sure they will each average a 3-5% reduction?

The same thing that makes him think all tanks should have triple their current hit points:  His feelings that he would design a better game.



Copacetic #50 Posted Jul 25 2019 - 02:51

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View Postleeuniverse, on Jul 25 2019 - 00:31, said:

 

LOL...  No it doesn't!

 

SBMM = Pro Football teams playing against each other.  There's still considerable variance, but things are fair and equal.

The current MM is often like putting a Pro Team against a Pee Wee Team.

 

That's not a proper game.

 

The MM at a basic start needs to simply balancing each team with the SAME # of SIMILAR Skilled players.  Period.

If there's 4 Unicorns, each side get's two.  If there's 6 Blues, each side get's 3, etc. etc.

no in pro football just cause you suck doesn't mean you don't still play a round robin (at least in your division)


Edited by Copacetic, Jul 25 2019 - 03:02.


leeuniverse #51 Posted Jul 25 2019 - 04:35

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View PostAvalon304, on Jul 24 2019 - 17:43, said:

No its more like assing 30 people a number between 1 and 30 putting them into a hat and picking out 15 of them without knowing the relative skill of the player associated with that number. Its random. Its how it works. It doesnt see skill. It doesnt stack the teams. It picks 30 random people and divides them in half.

 

Sure, that's what Random looks like, but this game isn't Random.

 

1. You clearly haven't seen Wargamings "Patent" on the MM, because guess what, games aren't Random.  They intentionally MM people in games to keep Winrates around 50%, and you only go above that depending on how good you are, and of course the tanks you play etc., and you're below that depending on how bad you are, tanks played, etc.  However, I think currently they are MM at a lower than 50% Winrate, though that just might be due to The Great Physics Nerf and Gun nerfs since, which has overall caused people to perform worse since tanks perform worse which then, of course, would lower winrates.

 

2. They further aren't random in that they select the tanks that will be on each side, trying to keep the # and types fairly even.

 

3. They do other things that make it not random like the 3/5/7 whatever etc. etc.

 

View PostNeatoMan, on Jul 24 2019 - 18:30, said:

What makes you think they will all add independently like that?  What makes you so sure they will each average a 3-5% reduction?

 

I'm just given a general low-ball estimate, the least ideal average.

Obviously, some things might be more, some things might be less.

So, giving the most conservative estimate, if each thing averaged around that amount, whatever the average is, it certainly adds up.

Either way, it makes a better game.

 

View PostHellsfog, on Jul 24 2019 - 18:39, said:

The same thing that makes him think all tanks should have triple their current hit points:  His feelings that he would design a better game.

 

Factual data points that I mention that would occur when there are increased HP levels are not "feelings".

 

- Escaping when shot because you have more HP is not a "feeling".

- Being Saved by other players when you're shot because you have more HP is not a "feeling".

- Making different/better choices such as flanking because you're not dead due to having more HP is not a "feeling".

etc. etc.

 

I don't judge anything by "feelings" alone.  ALL judgments I have on everything in life is based on facts, experience, and evidence.

Correct yourself buddy.

 

View PostCopacetic, on Jul 24 2019 - 18:51, said:

no in pro football just cause you suck doesn't mean you don't still play a round robin (at least in your division)

 

Huh?  Even with balancing a similar # of similar skilled players on each side in WOT you're still going to be playing against everyone at some point.

You seem to think SBMM is you playing ONLY against those of your same skill?  Sorry, it's not...  That's not possible in a functional MM, since there wouldn't be enough people, so we aren't even talking about that.

 

What SBMM we are talking about is simply whatever's in the que, instead of giving one team more better players, such as 2 Unicorns, 4 blues, 5 Greens etc., each team instead each get's a Unicorn, each get's 2 blues, one gets 3 greens and one get's 2 greens, etc.  In other words, the MM simply balances equally as can.

 

This is the very first and most simple thing they should be doing to make more enjoyable and fair games, i.e. reducing steamrolls etc..



NeatoMan #52 Posted Jul 25 2019 - 05:30

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View Postleeuniverse, on Jul 24 2019 - 22:35, said:

I'm just given a general low-ball estimate, the least ideal average.

Obviously, some things might be more, some things might be less.

So, giving the most conservative estimate, if each thing averaged around that amount, whatever the average is, it certainly adds up.

Either way, it makes a better game.

How do you know the lowball estimate wouldn't be fractions of a percent, and yours are actually highball estimates?

 

Look at what happens in the higher tiers where dpm/hp is much lower than it is in the low or mid tiers;  blowouts increase.  None of your guestimates has single example that confirm it



Avalon304 #53 Posted Jul 25 2019 - 06:06

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View Postleeuniverse, on Jul 24 2019 - 20:35, said:

 

Sure, that's what Random looks like, but this game isn't Random.

 

1. You clearly haven't seen Wargamings "Patent" on the MM, because guess what, games aren't Random.  They intentionally MM people in games to keep Winrates around 50%, and you only go above that depending on how good you are, and of course the tanks you play etc., and you're below that depending on how bad you are, tanks played, etc.  However, I think currently they are MM at a lower than 50% Winrate, though that just might be due to The Great Physics Nerf and Gun nerfs since, which has overall caused people to perform worse since tanks perform worse which then, of course, would lower winrates.

 

2. They further aren't random in that they select the tanks that will be on each side, trying to keep the # and types fairly even.

 

3. They do other things that make it not random like the 3/5/7 whatever etc. etc.

 

1. I have indeed seen the patent that every bad like you likes to trot out when they start complaining about how MM is rigged or other nonsense. There is nothing to show that WG is actively using the patented methods in the matchmaker. Companies hold patents for TONS of things that they dont actively use. The existence of a patent doesnt mean the thing that was patented is being used. Wargaming's match maker doesnt manage win rates at all. The average win rate of the server is determined by simple statistics. Wins-Draws-Losses. 48%-2%-50%. Thats just how things work in a closed system like this. If WG actually wanted to manipulate win rates, the server average would be 50% even and there wouldnt be draws.

 

2 and 3. That there are limits on what the matchmaker can do doesnt mean that what it does within those limits isnt random. As far as the matchmaker is concerned, it doesnt see skill. It doesnt see a person win rate, or PR or WN8 or any other stat. It sees tier and tank. Thats it. Within its set limits (+/-2 tiers of your tank and with an effort to keep tank types even between teams) it creates teams randomly.

 

Still random. And WG is never going to make the matchmaker see skill, nor will they make it balance skill. Because when you balance something between teams you remove its effect on the outcome of the battle. Tiers and tank types are balanced, so as not to affect the outcome of the battle. If you balance for skill, you remove its outcome on the battle and WG has very clearly stated they want skill to actually matter in this game, as it currently does.



leeuniverse #54 Posted Jul 25 2019 - 07:44

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View PostNeatoMan, on Jul 24 2019 - 21:30, said:

How do you know the lowball estimate wouldn't be fractions of a percent, and yours are actually highball estimates?

 

Look at what happens in the higher tiers where dpm/hp is much lower than it is in the low or mid tiers;  blowouts increase.  None of your guestimates has single example that confirm it

 

There might be a thing or two that's high ball, but others are going to be low-balled.

 

You incorrectly think Blowouts are due to DPM, it's not.  And I'm guessing you're saying HP is lower in relation to damage output %'s in comparison to the low tiers?  I won't address that because i'm don't know enough about it and your point.

As to DPM and blowouts, no...

 

Blowout are caused by:

- Imbalanced Flanks

- More players on a flank than the enemy

- Different Armor facing each other on a flank

- Different gun damage and DPM facing each other on a flank

- Better players facing worse players on a flank

- Gold Rounds used by one side more.

- Luck, some players just having a bad game

etc. etc.

 

Actually, there are many examples that confirm my changes, as well as simple common sense.

 

- Test Server has way more blowouts, and that's because everyone uses Gold, so removing Gold will clearly have an effect on players playing, holding flanks, etc.

I mean, I shouldn't even need an example when it comes to Gold Rounds, only an **** would think Gold Rounds "don't" have a considerable effect on someone taking out an enemy tank.

- Do you really think that if someone has more HP, they won't make different decisions?  For example if they get shot by multiple tanks at one position which currently results in death, they won't try a different position and thus be able to contribute more to the battle before dying?  I mean, certainly some or even many will still be stupid, staying the same place, but not everyone is.  We know this because most people do it already, if they find a spot dangerous, they will do something else, and of course the opposite is also true, not denying human nature, but you are by ignoring that many DO make changes, and also ignoring that sometimes some people need MORE of a reminder to make a change.  So, more HP will allow them to do so instead of the game being over, as well as creating steamrolls due to not having enough HP that allows mistakes.

- You mention low tiers.... guess what, low tiers especially the lowest tends to have less of a "power spread" between them.  So, this is an example that lowering the power-spread between tiers will help in reducing steamrolls.

- Removing super high damage guns, should be common sense, but also I'm sure you've seen games yourself that don't have high damage guns in which they are more "even" and balanced in fighting?

- Games used to have MANY Arty on each side, Wargaming proved that lowering Arty count reduced the death speeds of tankers, so tell me why lowering to 1 arty per side, or maybe 2 if my other changes are done wouldn't improving tanker experience as well as Arty player experience because games will be longer, and the Arty player will be able to eat more food due to games being longer as well as it not being taken up by another arty player?  So, there's another example.

 

I mean, I can go on and on providing examples and common sense on how my other changes would be tangible evidence of my claims.

Oh, want to mention another, "Recharging" repair kits, I mean that's clearly made a difference, though it was likely eliminated by Stun which kills just as much almost as high damage arty shots.

 

Anyway, you claim there are no "examples".... well there are many, plus common sense which maybe you don't have?

 

View PostAvalon304, on Jul 24 2019 - 22:06, said:

1. I have indeed seen the patent that every bad like you likes to trot out when they start complaining about how MM is rigged or other nonsense. There is nothing to show that WG is actively using the patented methods in the matchmaker. Companies hold patents for TONS of things that they dont actively use. The existence of a patent doesnt mean the thing that was patented is being used. Wargaming's match maker doesnt manage win rates at all. The average win rate of the server is determined by simple statistics. Wins-Draws-Losses. 48%-2%-50%. Thats just how things work in a closed system like this. If WG actually wanted to manipulate win rates, the server average would be 50% even and there wouldnt be draws.

 

2 and 3. That there are limits on what the matchmaker can do doesnt mean that what it does within those limits isnt random. As far as the matchmaker is concerned, it doesnt see skill. It doesnt see a person win rate, or PR or WN8 or any other stat. It sees tier and tank. Thats it. Within its set limits (+/-2 tiers of your tank and with an effort to keep tank types even between teams) it creates teams randomly.

 

Still random. And WG is never going to make the matchmaker see skill, nor will they make it balance skill. Because when you balance something between teams you remove its effect on the outcome of the battle. Tiers and tank types are balanced, so as not to affect the outcome of the battle. If you balance for skill, you remove its outcome on the battle and WG has very clearly stated they want skill to actually matter in this game, as it currently does.

 

1. "Every bad like me" huh....?

And this is what an Elitist and an online bully looks like folks.... they call people who are in the 1 or 5% "bad" just because they aren't as "good" as them.

I've also stated no "non-sense", simply the facts that games aren't as "random" as you think.

In my opinion, they are using it, because if the game was truly "random" there would be plenty of people that have very high Winrates, even though they have bad stats, which practically doesn't exist.

But, there are other reasons I believe this, that are more complicated.

 

2. And now you're just denying reality...  When you determine what tanks are placed and where, it's no longer "random".

And yes I know they don't balance by PR, Winrate or otherwise.

 

3. LOL...  Skill will STILL matter even with each side balance with a similar # of similarly skilled players based on PR.

You all are funny that you think skill somehow disappears, or that there will be some great "trauma" to the game to simply balance the sides.

What's even more funny is that most of you say balancing the sides WON'T affect the quality/balance of battles, but YOU, however, are saying it would "greatly influence" battle outcomes.

LOL  My view is that it helps games be a bit more balanced, but not by much, many other things are needed to really balance battles out, to prevent steamrolls etc. as I list on the previous page.

 

One other thing...  It fascinates me that you think you are "skilled" when you beat up a bunch of "weaker" players.

Real skill is being able to do well against those who aren't pushovers.  So, what you've just stated is EXACTLY why we need SBMM, because of people like you who think you're "good" because you can beat on the considerably weaker better than most.  But, to be fair, SBMM won't stop you from getting your good stats, it just might be slightly harder than you're used to.  Again, SBMM is not you facing the SAME SKILLED PLAYERS in case you're confused, it's simply balancing each side with the similar # of similarly skilled players, i.e. 2 Unicorns each side, 3 blues each side, 4 greens each side, etc. etc.  Your "skill" isn't going to be affected by much with that sort of MM.

 

So, you are "afraid" of nothing at all...  Why are you so afraid of others being able to enjoy the game a little longer or do a little better?

There are those who think that to lift the many, you have to take from the Rich.  That is a false ideology.  You're not going to "lose" anything by others having/doing more under my system.  You may have more competition, but you're not going to lose.  Prosperity lifts ALL boats...



NeatoMan #55 Posted Jul 25 2019 - 14:45

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View Postleeuniverse, on Jul 25 2019 - 01:44, said:

There might be a thing or two that's high ball, but others are going to be low-balled.

 

You incorrectly think Blowouts are due to DPM, it's not.  And I'm guessing you're saying HP is lower in relation to damage output %'s in comparison to the low tiers?  I won't address that because i'm don't know enough about it and your point.

And yet you seem to be able to think you can provide an estimate of the effect without any knowledge whatsoever.

 

There is a large drop off of dpm in relation to HP as you move up the tiers, and blowouts have always increased as you move up the tiers. 

 

Block Quote

Blowout are caused by:

- Imbalanced Flanks

- More players on a flank than the enemy

- Different Armor facing each other on a flank

- Different gun damage and DPM facing each other on a flank

- Better players facing worse players on a flank

- Gold Rounds used by one side more.

- Luck, some players just having a bad game

 and yet you seem so sure that all your changes will cut blowouts by 1/2 to 1/3, despite all the above

 

Block Quote

- Test Server has way more blowouts, and that's because everyone uses Gold, so removing Gold will clearly have an effect on players playing, holding flanks, etc.

 The test server also has players playing tanks and tiers they are unfamiliar with, and doing things they normally wouldn't try on the live server..  People take far more risks, and are probably far more aggressive on the test server.

 

Block Quote

You mention low tiers.... guess what, low tiers especially the lowest tends to have less of a "power spread" between them.  So, this is an example that lowering the power-spread between tiers will help in reducing steamrolls.

 This I can agree with for sure, as well as buffing and nerfing UP/OP tanks properly.   They have never gotten this part right.

 



MacDaddyMatty #56 Posted Jul 25 2019 - 20:31

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NO ONE who want SBMM can ever answer this Q...


 

What skill?

Overall?

Folly!

I'm DK BLUE at some tiers/tanks and RED in other tanks/tiers.


 DEFINE SKILL!

 

There is no such thing as SBMM in WoT.



leeuniverse #57 Posted Jul 25 2019 - 21:10

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View PostMacDaddyMatty, on Jul 25 2019 - 12:31, said:

NO ONE who want SBMM can ever answer this Q...


 

What skill?

Overall?

Folly!

I'm DK BLUE at some tiers/tanks and RED in other tanks/tiers.


 DEFINE SKILL!

 

There is no such thing as SBMM in WoT.

 

LOL...  SBMM that will work with the MM by not providing additional "load" is simply balancing each side with a similar # of similar skilled players.

So, if the que has 2 Unicorns 4 blue, 6 Green, etc. etc. each side with get 1 Unicorn, 2 blue, 3 green, etc. etc. instead of what currently happens is one side is often unequally loaded.

It's also done by PLAYER RATING which is one's Overall Skill/performance in the game playing all tanks.  Winrate will not work, because it can vary greatly due to various factors such as types of tanks most played, etc.

 

SBMM is just the first necessary but easy step to balancing the game, others incorrectly think it will solve the problems of balance, but it alone will only be a minor improvement, much more is necessary as I've stated previously.

 

So, you can no longer say "no one has answered your questions".  I just did.



BloodRave31 #58 Posted Jul 28 2019 - 05:07

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View Postleeuniverse, on Jul 25 2019 - 21:10, said:

 

LOL...  SBMM that will work with the MM by not providing additional "load" is simply balancing each side with a similar # of similar skilled players.

So, if the que has 2 Unicorns 4 blue, 6 Green, etc. etc. each side with get 1 Unicorn, 2 blue, 3 green, etc. etc. instead of what currently happens is one side is often unequally loaded.

It's also done by PLAYER RATING which is one's Overall Skill/performance in the game playing all tanks.  Winrate will not work, because it can vary greatly due to various factors such as types of tanks most played, etc.

 

SBMM is just the first necessary but easy step to balancing the game, others incorrectly think it will solve the problems of balance, but it alone will only be a minor improvement, much more is necessary as I've stated previously.

 

So, you can no longer say "no one has answered your questions".  I just did.

Here is an example from tonight for you and __WarChild__, and mind you this is from my 5th match in a row with MMing like this, only I am set to only save my last replay so this is the only one I could go back to and screen cap from.

p.s. After 5 in a row like this I called it quits for the night as I only play for fun but put XVM back in to tracki my own progress and no more. I have no win % or anything enabled.



MacDaddyMatty #59 Posted Jul 29 2019 - 14:29

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View Postleeuniverse, on Jul 25 2019 - 15:10, said:

 

LOL...  SBMM that will work with the MM by not providing additional "load" is simply balancing each side with a similar # of similar skilled players.

So, if the que has 2 Unicorns 4 blue, 6 Green, etc. etc. each side with get 1 Unicorn, 2 blue, 3 green, etc. etc. instead of what currently happens is one side is often unequally loaded.

It's also done by PLAYER RATING which is one's Overall Skill/performance in the game playing all tanks.  Winrate will not work, because it can vary greatly due to various factors such as types of tanks most played, etc.

 

SBMM is just the first necessary but easy step to balancing the game, others incorrectly think it will solve the problems of balance, but it alone will only be a minor improvement, much more is necessary as I've stated previously.

 

So, you can no longer say "no one has answered your questions".  I just did.

You ignored the question.

I'm Blue in the Emil 2, Amx 50 120, T28 JHTC.

I'm Red in the Bulldog, AMX ELC Bis.

Work that into your MM.
 



Copacetic #60 Posted Jul 30 2019 - 00:38

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View PostBloodRave31, on Jul 28 2019 - 05:07, said:

Here is an example from tonight for you and __WarChild__, and mind you this is from my 5th match in a row with MMing like this, only I am set to only save my last replay so this is the only one I could go back to and screen cap from.

p.s. After 5 in a row like this I called it quits for the night as I only play for fun but put XVM back in to tracki my own progress and no more. I have no win % or anything enabled.

hell teams probably be pretty even if your rating was 2483 instead of 236






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