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[SandBox] Ammo Rework

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DomoSapien #1 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 17:04

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Tankers, 

 

The Sandbox server is open for preliminary testing of the Ammo rework.

 

You can read all the details & apply for the sandbox by following the instructions in this article on the news portal.

 

As we move forward with testing, keep in mind that we are focusing on the general concept first; when forming your opinion please try to look at this concept as a whole rather than fixating on any specific numbers or values since these values will still be subjected to additional testing and analysis before release. 

 

If you have participated in previous iterations of Sandbox, you should have access to this one. However some players are reporting that they haven't received the Sandbox test email. If possible, please reapply for the Sandbox (those who participated in previous versions should get priority but It's my understanding that almost everyone (if not everyone) who applies should get access to this wave of Sandbox testing.)

 

Satisfied? Dissatisfied? If it were up to you, how would you improve the proposed changes?
Please leave your feedback below.

 



OurBoyRoy #2 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 17:30

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So, a question about the Sandbox. I previously participated in the Sandbox for what became Frontline, but when I click on the button for applying for the current Sandbox, it just tells me that I should have a download waiting for me, but there isn't one. When can we expect access to the Sandbox?

sid_vici0us #3 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 17:40

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I have a question. Did they forget to give us free xp? Or do they actually want everyone to grind from tier one?

AstroLight27 #4 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 17:49

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Same here, i don't have acces to the sandbox even if I applied to it like 2 weeks ago!

Mikosah #5 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 17:53

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I have a question, exactly which changes are being tested? Is this sandbox test going to work with the proposal that was announced back in December? Has anything about the proposal changed since then?

 

Edit****

Have read the article, thank you. The new scheme of increasing standard shell alpha and also increasing vehicle hit points is just a roundabout way of just decreasing the premium shell alpha relative to everything else. Neither good nor bad, but I have to ask why do it in reverse like this? But it is an opportunity to use hit points as a balancing factor which if done well would be a good thing. For now let's assume that the ratios of damage to hit points stay more or less identical to the live server. That in mind, I do have some initial thoughts.

 

The HE and HESH situation is vague, is the 22% increase just for vehicles who have these as their primary shell type, or for all instances? Either way, then thanks to the HP increase it'll be relatively weaker than before. In the case of unusual troublemakers like the FV183 or artillery, perhaps that's a good thing. But for all the conventional tanks with conventional high-velocity guns, HE is extremely unreliable even for the tasks that its meant to do as things are. Let alone if it loses relative effectiveness in the future.

 

And otherwise, the two issues I raised in the past are just as valid now as they were then. One is that if the premium shell now has a clear alpha disadvantage to offset its penetration, then there's no reason for it to be more expensive than the standard shell. The other is that we still have a major problem with excessive armor, hence why this whole dilemma arose to begin with. Armor needs weakspots. 


Edited by Mikosah, Jun 05 2019 - 02:27.


DomoSapien #6 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 18:06

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View PostOurBoyRoy, on Jun 04 2019 - 10:30, said:

So, a question about the Sandbox. I previously participated in the Sandbox for what became Frontline, but when I click on the button for applying for the current Sandbox, it just tells me that I should have a download waiting for me, but there isn't one. When can we expect access to the Sandbox?

View PostAstroLight27, on Jun 04 2019 - 10:49, said:

Same here, i don't have acces to the sandbox even if I applied to it like 2 weeks ago!

We're looking into it, you should have received an email with instructions and a download link but I know you aren't alone in that regard so we're trying to figure out how best to help you guys out.

View Postsid_vici0us, on Jun 04 2019 - 10:40, said:

I have a question. Did they forget to give us free xp? Or do they actually want everyone to grind from tier one?

So the reason you didn't get free XP is that we want to test all the tiers, and giving folks a bunch of free XP results in the effect we see on Common Test where only tiers 8-10 actually see enough players to form matches.

View PostMikosah, on Jun 04 2019 - 10:53, said:

I have a question, exactly which changes are being tested? Is this sandbox test going to work with the proposal that was announced back in December? Has anything about the proposal changed since then?


It's sort of a revised version of the initial ammo changes we first announced. We're also increasing the alpha damage of standard rounds, and buffing the hitpoints of every vehicle.


That's a super-basic explanation though so please make sure to read the article when you get a chance!



Vladimir_Kisov #7 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 18:47

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Quick question, are the players going to see the sandbox test result like the live server stats? It would be great if we can have some information about vehicles avg WR, dpg, battle duration,... etc. By that, we can have better understanding of the changes in the sandbox compare to live server, rather than being just a lab rat.

YANKEE137 #8 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 19:19

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Which is better Domo, Coke or Pepsi ?

phasor4 #9 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 19:34

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WOT community: nerf Japanese heavies armor and ammo (simply add prominent weakspots to armor)

WG response: nerf premium round damage for every other tank (edit: now buffing basic ammo) and rebalance every tank HP in the game on a case by case basis ; Japanese heavy ammo rebalanced. 

Is this job security or just plain stupid?

Stevenwt #10 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 19:37

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View PostVladimir_Kisov, on Jun 04 2019 - 12:47, said:

Quick question, are the players going to see the sandbox test result like the live server stats? It would be great if we can have some information about vehicles avg WR, dpg, battle duration,... etc. By that, we can have better understanding of the changes in the sandbox compare to live server, rather than being just a lab rat.

 

That’s kind of pointless, for one thing it’s a completely different environment on test, people in different regions just play differently for one thing, and also because stats Realy don’t matter after this week.

Also lag. Lots and lots of lag.

 

also expect to be tked far more often. It happens. And when it happens to you all I have to say is Get over it cupcake. Just don’t get baited into shooting back.

 

Actualy they probably need bots on both teams tier 1-10 at first. And then let them go away once the tiers flesh out. Other than that....

 

 


Edited by Stevenwt, Jun 04 2019 - 19:41.


Saint_Metagross #11 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 20:04

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View PostDomoSapien, on Jun 04 2019 - 09:06, said:

We're looking into it, you should have received an email with instructions and a download link but I know you aren't alone in that regard so we're trying to figure out how best to help you guys out.

So the reason you didn't get free XP is that we want to test all the tiers, and giving folks a bunch of free XP results in the effect we see on Common Test where only tiers 8-10 actually see enough players to form matches.


It's sort of a revised version of the initial ammo changes we first announced. We're also increasing the alpha damage of standard rounds, and buffing the hitpoints of every vehicle.


That's a super-basic explanation though so please make sure to read the article when you get a chance!

 

I'm also in the same situation.  I hope the issue can be resolved soon.

 

Though, my initial thoughts from what I've read.  The changes will not be effective at countering gold/premium/special (a rose by any color...) round spam.  People use Premium rounds due to the pen.  Not the damage or costs.  They don't care about those at all.  Just the penetration.  And while some people would disagree with me, I do not see raising the damage of standard rounds as the answer alone.  Nor is increasing HP Pools.  A Maus with more HP just takes two extra premium rounds (on average) to kill (due to going from 3k hp to 3540, if the 18% increase is true).  Over all, that is not much of a change.  The reason why people don't like premium rounds is due to the fact that in most cases with how people use them, they just tend to bypass your armor, regardless of how well you angle yourself, most of the time.  In my own tests, I have found this to be true, though, those tests did not really use millions of rounds of ammo.  People at high tier are already playing with the assumption they are not going to make credits back and will loss credits, thus, they use premium rounds.  To many tanks have excessively high powerful DPM that slow heavy tanks cannot effectively counter if they fire premium rounds, even with a HP buff.  Even a 3540 HP Maus will melt in seconds if caught in the open due to extremely fast scouts on maps much to small to make those scouts fair and everyone lights up the Maus with premium rounds.

 

More is needed in my opinion.  Another reason people use premium rounds is for "damage farming", this is to more or less boost their personal rating/WN8.  Though, in my personal experience, this helps new accounts more than old accounts with a crap ton of battles and damage already under their belt.  Which is one reason many people have re-rolled their accounts (made a new one basically), this is to hide their poor statistic account and show off their good statistic account.  In short, the main root of the issue is statistics alone.  People want to be good so people will go "OMG!  Your stats are good!".  And one of the best ways to do this is to spam premium rounds in a new account due to having figured out how to play the game on an older account that you realize would be hard to change that 46% win rate to something higher due to having 30k+ battles.  Of course, you also have to spend money to buy gold, credits, and premium tanks to really set up the account.

 

In truth, there is more to the problem than just premium rounds themselves.  When I play a heavy tank, I want to see me bested not with premium rounds, but, with standard rounds.  Cause, to me, a person that beats me with standard rounds when I play a heavy tank that is really good at blocking shots, is a skilled person, while the person that spammed premium rounds, has no skill.

 

To summarize my feelings: The change is not good enough and will not be an effective counter.  And there is more to the problem than just premium rounds.


Edited by Saint_Metagross, Jun 04 2019 - 20:05.


RoyalGreenPC #12 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 20:08

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It is worse than a straight up premium rounds nerf.

It does pretty much the same thing, but messes up all the number values we're already used to for no apparent reason while at it. Also it'll heavily punish players with high amount of battles if they care about their stats and stuff since all new dpg will be higher.

Please do NOT implement.



BerryMcKokiner #13 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 20:13

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For the love of god. Just reduce the damage on premium rounds. That is all you need to do wargaming.

Isola_di_Fano #14 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 20:22

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Why make things simple when you can complicate everything !

 

Makes total sense !



CynicalDutchie #15 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 20:43

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Increasing alpha damage on everything has got to be the most retarded idea WG has ever had besides refusing to fix arty.

monster0301_3 #16 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 20:49

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I would like to point something out. According to my my calculations: if this update happens

Standard rounds (no dmg penalty):          Premium rounds (-25% dmg)                 Premium rounds (-30% dmg)

320                                                           240                                                          224

360                                                           270                                                          252

390                                                           292.5                                                       273

400                                                           300                                                          280

420                                                           315                                                          294

440                                                           330                                                          308

490                                                           367.5                                                       343

560                                                           420                                                          392

650                                                           487.5                                                       455

700                                                           525                                                          490

750                                                           562.5                                                       525

1050                                                         787.5                                                       735

1150                                                         862.5                                                       805

1750                                                         1312.5                                                     1225

From what I see this update isn't going to help at all; in fact I believe this update is going to make premium spamming problem even worse, especially for those people playing soviet tanks with 320 dmg/shell, or tanks with  105mm with 390 dmg/shell because this update means they need to load more premium rounds to be able to take out a very heavily armoured vehicle (i.e. Type 5 heavy, Maus). This, instead of discouraging premium spam, will encourage more gold spamming since your dmg/round is lower meaning you need to fire more premium rounds which means loading more premium ammo. I don't think this update is going to help much; in fact it might make things even worse but this is just my opinion.

 


Edited by monster0301_3, Jun 04 2019 - 20:50.


artilector #17 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 21:18

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Thoughts:

 

1. I mean it should work overall -- people who use prem rounds will do less damage relative to those who don't. Maybe it won't stop the premium spam from bad players, but this spam will now inflict less damage (relative to other shells). On the other hand, all good players will adjust and will try to use more regular ammo carefully to maximize damage.

 

2. It's not at all clear why you went the route of increasing regular round damage and tank hp, instead of simply nerfing premium rounds. Maybe for the fun of making stats-obsessed players whine about increased damage that makes their old stats seem weak? I don't really care, but it seems easier to nerf premium rounds, and then (if necessary) nerf some high-armor tanks that would benefit too much from this nerf. Re-working the hp of ALL vehicles seems like a kind of "big turbulence" that may take several updates to stabilize.

 

3. I think a lot of people (and myself) like the idea of simply limiting the amount of premium ammo, e.g. a tank can only carry an amount of premium ammo with potential damage equal to something like 1 or 2 times his vehicles health pool. E.g. 5-10 premium shells for a tier 8 medium, for example. That would reduce the premium round damage AND the premium round spam. It would also create another interesting parameter with which tanks can be balanced -- e.g. Russian vehicles would have fewer premium shells in exchange for other characteristics. Perhaps the game economy right now depends on people needing credits to buy premium shells, but there's gotta be many ways to adjust it for fewer premium shells.


Edited by artilector, Jun 04 2019 - 21:25.


AverageWannabe #18 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 21:22

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I don't know how to apply, I checked the link you posted but there is no application format or anything similar, just information about how to download the client.

 

Please let me know how to proceed.



thunder59 #19 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 21:23

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Not participating in this but, as a veteran player I can tell you that this is just way too complicated for the average player and is possibly one of the reasons that so many veteran players have left the game. I have taken multiple breaks over the past year or so myself and every time I come back I just see new reasons to stop playing. Making the game more complicated is just one of those reasons. I have no interest in learning yet more new game mechanics. You are driving players away by listening so much to the whiners.

There is a really simple solution to this perceived problem, stop making "super tanks"! Matching tanks against ones they can't damage is just stupid, so I suppose I am talking about matchmaking as much as anything. This is a game, and people want to play a game they can have fun in as well as be competitive.

"Power creep" is the real problem in this game not ammunition choices. Yes, the free to play players will all cry about "gold rounds" and call people no skill because of it. So what? If you aren't skilled enough to manage your rounds and battle costs then too bad for you. You'll always have issues making credits. 

A bit of a rambling rant but hey I don't want to waste any more time here as WG won't listen anyway since I am telling them that their agenda is stupid!


Edited by thunder59, Jun 04 2019 - 21:24.


MightyBarbarian #20 Posted Jun 04 2019 - 21:49

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View PostRoyalGreenPC, on Jun 04 2019 - 14:08, said:

It is worse than a straight up premium rounds nerf.

It does pretty much the same thing, but messes up all the number values we're already used to for no apparent reason while at it. Also it'll heavily punish players with high amount of battles if they care about their stats and stuff since all new dpg will be higher.

Please do NOT implement.

 

i second that. Why mess with all the tanks HP and alpha damage? when all WG could do for example is limit the number of special round we can carry. Simple and effective, no re balancing whatsoever. For the players it means choosing wisely when to shoot premium rounds. Simple enough.




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